Hmmm... Traditional Grip

[mprules]

Ok, well i am keen to learn traditional grip, purely because I am shallow and love how it looks

can some people point out the positives and negatives of using traditional grip, and also some tips if they really wanna be nice :)

[dumbassdrummer]

It's all about what feels good to you.

[styler]

http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387402

if that link worked then nothing else needs to be said..

[Double Bass Jim]

Always remember...

It's just a grip, a way of making notes on the drum set. I wouldnt say one or the other has a clear advantage/disadvantage.

[Bone]

Right on there jim!

That's exactly that, one grip or another makes no difference.. what makes the difference is whatever you choose that you develop it so that you can play with a level of technical proficiency, at least in your grip, that you need not worry about it.

[Jezen]

Traditional grip uses 4 muscles. Matched uses 32. See why matched is superior?

[aznriceball]

^ kindly please name those 4 and why the 28 in the matched arent there..?

[Jezen]

I dunno, it's something like that.

My junior high band director, Mr. Frank Adams, taught me matched grip
in his beginner band. I was aware of traditional grip, watching set
drummers on TV every so often, but didn't really give a hoot about
one grip or the other. Eventually I started competing with other
drummers, auditioning for spots in regional or state wide concert
bands. The auditions usually consisted of sight reading, opening and
closing a rudiment or two, and sometimes playing a prepared piece of
music, either a solo of the performer's choice or a selection picked
by the judges and sent to the performers in advance.

For sight reading I noticed a traditional grip player's concentration
was divided three ways, reading the rhythms and dynamics, maintaining a
firm and controlled grip with the left hand, and playing with a balanced
sound. With matched grip I could concentrate almost entirely on reading
the selection. Opening and closing rudiments seemed to cause physical
pain for the traditional grip players, particularly in the left hand.
Breaking down rudiments with matched grip never caused me any pain.
At worst a mild discomfort ensued when controlling the evenness of
the acceleration/deceleration near and at my fastest speeds. I even
noticed differences between myself and my traditional grip peers with
the prepared selection part of the audition. I played with more dynamic
range between extreme volume levels.

In 1976 I read an article in 'The Ludwig Drummer' magazine, written by
Mitch Markovitch, entitled "Matched Grip: Riding the Wave of the Future".
This article shed light on the difficulties inherent with traditional grip.
The major point the article made was that matched grip uses thirteen
muscles for an up/down stroke, whereas the traditional left uses four.
Thirteen muscles versus four. That's quite a difference considering the
hand that will use just four muscles is the 'weak' hand for the
majority of the population. Mitch's article also compared the traditional
grip with learning to walk evenly with a combat boot on one foot and a
tennis shoe on the other. It can be done, but valuable practice time
is spent acquiring the talent. Matched grip starts with the premise that
if both hands are the same a more balanced sound will be the result.

Although I learned matched first I also trained several seasons with
traditional grip, and continue to practice traditional grip. I'd like to
expand on Mitch's article with observations I've made contrasting the
two grips. When I train with matched grip the major muscle that develops
is the tricep muscle. With traditional grip the major muscle in the left
hand that develops is the bicep. The tricep is a push muscle and the bicep
is a pull muscle. Push muscles are stronger than pull muscles (try pushing
a car and then pull it). Matched grip allows more contact between the
hand and the stick. The stick is gripped in much the same way one grips
a barbell, a football, or even someone's hand when you shake hands. This grip
is natural and quite strong, and the strength of the grip can be increased
with exercise. The top of the hand is above the stick which allows a
simple and powerful way to propel the stick. Simple because it is an
up/down motion; powerful because the entire arm pushes the stick toward
the playing surface. Matched grip allows the wrist to bend naturally at
the wrist joint which helps relieve arm tension. The middle, ring, and
pinky fingers curl under the stick to help maintain a strong grip allowing
better control (the fingers can tighten or relax). A better fulcrum is
achieved with matched grip because the middle finger is under the stick
near the balance point. Pivoting the stick is actually aided by the middle,
ring, and pinky fingers as they push the back of the stick toward the
palm forcing the bead downward. All components of the arm work together
for a downstroke. The arm pushes the stick down, the wrist bends right
before impact to add additional power and to help relieve arm tension, and
the fingers tighten or relax, depending on the situation, to guide/control
the stick.

The grip used by the left hand of traditional grip is unnatural; it is not
a grip developed by everyday activities. Thus the beginner will enter
uncharted motor skill territory with traditional grip. Muscle differences
and unfamiliar grip means a beginner's left hand will require more attention.
Even seasoned traditional grip players admit spending extra time on the
left hand. The right hand will never reach full potential due to the
left constantly trailing behind in training. The traditional grip left
hand has two motions to propel the stick: the up/down motion used for
rolls and diddles, and the turning motion sometimes used for singles
and accents. The turning motion resembles the motion of the arm when one
turns a doorknob. The muscles used for the turning motion are very weak,
and the player must constantly adjust while switching from one motion to
the other. Most of the left hand is under the stick, the back of the hand
lends no power to the downstroke. There is very little wrist movement to
alleviate wrist and arm tension. Little wrist movement also implies less
arm flexibility; the arm motions are stiff which increases upper arm tension.
There is less finger contact on the stick in the left hand. The fingers grip
the stick but play a minimal role in controlling the stick. The stick rests
on the side of the ring finger close to the bone and knuckle, which will
absorb a portion of the impact when striking the playing surface. This can
cause some degree of pain, and makes for a less than adequate pivot. The arm,
wrist, and fingers of a left hand downstroke does not move as fluidly, in
conjunction with one another, as a downstroke of matched grip.

From a visual standpoint there is no question that traditional looks better.
I believe this has to do with the visual contrast between the left and right
hands. Matched grip looks boring, but in my opinion is more functional for
power and control. Matched grip is easier for beginners to learn for two
reasons: strengths and flaws between each hand can be compared, and
concentration is not divided with two styles. A matched grip player
will need to strengthen the weak hand, but he/she is not handicapped by
muscle or motor skill differences. Players should be versatile enough to
use both grips, but traditional grip should be taught only after a student
has partially mastered matched. The major reason: it is harder to retrain
the left arm to be flexible, to bend at the wrist, than it is to play
with locked joints having already learned flexibility. Matched grip should
be used whenever a player wants to maximize power and control.



There. Knock yourself out.

[cjcdrums]

Rick Beckham is a badasses' badass too.

But I'm sticking with traditional!

[[UEAK]Clowd]

I don't know about traditional looking better... I think it looks kind of goofy.

[Bone]

I dunno, it's something like that.

*large Rick Beckham Text*

There. Knock yourself out.


Well I don't want to insult Rick, as he is a great rudimental player. However being a great rudimental player does not make one a even remotely good kinesologist.

Here is a nice, and acruate map out of the human hand and muscles in it.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/wnor/lesson5mus&tendonsofhand.htm

As one can easily see, and very quickly, it's simply not possible to play any grip using any more or less muscles in the hands.

Even if it was possible, You could never use only 4 muscles in your hand! It takes 4 alone to bend a single finger! To grip a stick, rotate it and swing it down.. you are using every muscle in your hand, arm and shoulders even.

Though emphasis on wich muscles are used may change, what Rick suggests simply goes against medical fact.

[Jezen]

Well, I gotta agree with the motor skills thing...

[Toolboy]

Traditional grip uses 4 muscles. Matched uses 32. See why matched is superior?

why does that make matched superior?
surely it'd be the other way round?

[oliv_da_skinmasher]

I am of the opinion that no grip is better than the other, they're both just as good

[Jezen]

why does that make matched superior?
surely it'd be the other way round?

Wha!?

Ok, there are two 1 tonne cars.

A group of 32 people try to lift one car. Not too hard.

Now a group of 4 people try and lift the other one. They struggle.



Do you see what i'm getting at?

[Wizz]

Wha!?

Ok, there are two 1 tonne cars.

A group of 32 people try to lift one car. Not too hard.

Now a group of 4 people try and lift the other one. They struggle.



Do you see what i'm getting at?

Not 32 , the article says 13 ( thirtheen )

[Jezen]

Oh right. Dunno where I got 32 from...

[Josiah]

Not 32 , the article says 13 ( thirtheen )


It doesn't matter what the article says. It's blatently wrong and goes against kinesiological fact.

Besides the fact.. most of that article is pure BS. I would spend some time tearing it apart.. but I'm not.


This is a highlight though...

" Opening and closing rudiments seemed to cause physical
pain for the traditional grip players, particularly in the left hand.
Breaking down rudiments with matched grip never caused me any pain."


The first sentance is crap to start with, the obvious stench of this crap lends that most will see that it is crap before touching it.

But here's where it get's interesting.. "particularly in the left hand". That last part would only be there to explain and indicate 2 things.

1. Pain occurs in BOTH hands.
2. The pain is more in the Traditional Hand.


"with matched grip never caused me any pain."

Yet, rick claims playing matched grip causes other players pain....



"The tricep is a push muscle and the bicep
is a pull muscle. Push muscles are stronger than pull muscles (try pushing
a car and then pull it)."

Oh my goodness! That is so horribly wrong it's not funny. All muscles operate in tandom, in the same manor. Contraction/Expansion. The triCep is actuall a group of 3 muscles (tri hmm?) and the bicep two muscles (Bi hmm?).

The car anology is so wrongly placed as well it's only making me think this guy doesn't understand what a analogy actually is!

Rick, yet again, is very wrong. The tricep makes up 70% of the muscle mass in a normal human arm. The triceps are far stronger then the bi-ceps and used much more.. hence they are 3 times the size and make up the majority of our upper arm.

Rick is also wrong again, as humans are generally far stronger at pulling things then pushing them. The example would be bench press vs rows. People can pull far more weight towards their chest then they can push away from it. Any time in any gym can tell you that. Also various things such as in world records of lifting, the bench press is the lowest (pushing weight off chest). While deadlifting is near the top, 2nd to squats (pulling weight up to waist).


Just one more..

"The right hand will never reach full potential due to the
left constantly trailing behind in training. "

What? Wait a min.. I thought that you were still wroking on your matched.. oh here it is.. "When I train with matched grip "

So I guess that it really doesn't matter since even after all those years, he's still training his matched anyway. Full potential can never be reached, that's a myth. You never cap out til you die.

Ok ok one more...

"The major reason: it is harder to retrain
the left arm to be flexible, to bend at the wrist, than it is to play
with locked joints having already learned flexibility."


Gee.. I dunno about this one. It's harder to play flexible, then to play with locked joints having already learned flexibility..

WHAT?!?!

How can playing with "locked joints" ever be remotely tied with good or proper technique?!

[jalel]

Ummmm.....when you do rows, you mainly use your back muscles (latissimus dorsi and erector spinae). The chest (pectoralis) muscles are hardly involved. Squats are also a pushing motion, not a pulling motion. The reason people generaly have stronger lower bodies is due to the larger muscles (i.e. gluteus maximus muscles).

[Japan3gro]

Since we're on the topic of Trad grip...why is it that most jazz drummers even newer ones adopt this grip? I don't see why people won't use matched grip for jazz. If I closed my eyes and listened to Buddy Rich or Peter Erskine I wouldn't be able to tell what grip they are using. So I'm focused more on sound over grip.

[Finch88]

if u learn traditional for looks, i kill you.

learn it for a desire to play all different kinds of grips ... i honestly like it more than matched because i groove a little better with it. also, traditional (at least for me) seems to be more preference rather than technique ... even though most people who play matched grip have ****ty technique and deserve to be slapped for disgracing such a great instrument

[Carne Evil]

This is not a scientific study or anything, but I personally find that matched grip works better if I want to groove on the toms a lot, or otherwise take my non-dominant hand off the snare. If I want to stick to the snare, however, traditional grip makes things a bit easier.
Once again, that's just the way it is for me.

[Sam Bredeson]

It doesn't matter what the article says. It's blatently wrong and goes against kinesiological fact.

.......

Oh my goodness! That is so horribly wrong it's not funny. All muscles operate in tandom, in the same manor. Contraction/Expansion. The triCep is actuall a group of 3 muscles (tri hmm?) and the bicep two muscles (Bi hmm?).

Rick, yet again, is very wrong. The tricep makes up 70% of the muscle mass in a normal human arm. The triceps are far stronger then the bi-ceps and used much more.. hence they are 3 times the size and make up the majority of our upper arm.

Rick is also wrong again, as humans are generally far stronger at pulling things then pushing them. The example would be bench press vs rows. People can pull far more weight towards their chest then they can push away from it.

Having been through the Minnesota-state mandated 7th and 10th grade health program, I can say, with absolute certainty, that you sir, are blatently wrong.

1) The triceps is so named, not because of three separate muscles making it up, but for the three points at which that one muscle attaches too the skeleton; two at the top (shoulder) and one at the bottom (elbow). The biceps is likewise named for it's two connections.

2) The biceps is, in fact, far larger than the triceps. Flex your own, and you will see what I mean. The muscle on the inside of your upper arm is surely a lot bigger than the one on the outside.

3) By saying that people can pull more towards themselves than push away, you obviously contradict your own previous statement. People pull in the rowing stroke using the BIceps muscle, which you claim to be the smaller and weaker of the two upper-arm muscles. Pushing is done with your so-called larger, stronger muscle.


Try doing actual research on kinesiology before you spout from your *** how others "go against kinesiological fact".

[filth and fury]

I seriously can't do trad for beans. I stick to matched.

[Blank]

I don't find grip to be that important.
I play pretty jazzy,but bandwise I play prog and metal, and I hold on comftorbally with just a bit of tension.
You gotta find what makes you comftorable man.

[Blank]

I don't find grip to be that important.
I play pretty jazzy,but bandwise I play prog and metal, and I hold on comftorbally with just a bit of tension.
You gotta find what makes you comftorable man.

[Josiah]

Having been through the Minnesota-state mandated 7th and 10th grade health program, I can say, with absolute certainty, that you sir, are blatently wrong.

1) The triceps is so named, not because of three separate muscles making it up, but for the three points at which that one muscle attaches too the skeleton; two at the top (shoulder) and one at the bottom (elbow). The biceps is likewise named for it's two connections.

2) The biceps is, in fact, far larger than the triceps. Flex your own, and you will see what I mean. The muscle on the inside of your upper arm is surely a lot bigger than the one on the outside.

3) By saying that people can pull more towards themselves than push away, you obviously contradict your own previous statement. People pull in the rowing stroke using the BIceps muscle, which you claim to be the smaller and weaker of the two upper-arm muscles. Pushing is done with your so-called larger, stronger muscle.


Try doing actual research on kinesiology before you spout from your *** how others "go against kinesiological fact".


Hahaha no, you sir are very wrong. Post that on BodyBuilding.com and watch yourself get laughed at.

Just for starters... Charles Ridgely - "Considering that the triceps make up about two-thirds of your arm size.."

If you wish to argue with that, be my guest. - http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ridgely15.htm

[Bone]

Out curiosity, what are your fellows stats?

[Aaron]

everyone has different bodies and lifestyles so they have different physiologies and use their muscles different. someone with an injured back as myself that sits high might find it less jarring to use traditional grip because of the forces involved, alternatley, someone that is sits low may find it easier and less effort to play matched grip.. whatever works for them.

[_R2D2_]

well many say that matched is better because your hands are holding the sticks the same way. it definitely seems simpler and more natural to use matched grip, so i think its better.

[jalel]

Wow, Josiah ripped on Sam but totally ignored my post......I don't know whether to feel relieved or neglected:confused:

[Josiah]

That's because you agreed with me.


Ummmm.....when you do rows, you mainly use your back muscles (latissimus dorsi and erector spinae). The chest (pectoralis) muscles are hardly involved. Squats are also a pushing motion, not a pulling motion. The reason people generaly have stronger lower bodies is due to the larger muscles (i.e. gluteus maximus muscles).


The example Rock uses is it would be easier to push a car then pull it. Your explaination fits right in with what I said. Humans are far stronger pulling, then pushing.

That's why in the worlds strongest man, they can pull big rigs and trains... but only push a car.

[Sam Bredeson]

I agree with your last statement, Josiah. What I don't agree with is when you said that the triceps are a pulling muscle. You pull your arms in with your biceps, and push it out with the triceps.

EDIT: BTW, the reason it's easier to pull a car than push it is because of friction more than anything else. When you push the car, you also push down, which is wasted effort. When you pull it, you actually pull it up a little bit, which lessens the friction with the ground (if only a little bit), and actually makes it easier to pull.

[jalel]

That's because you agreed with me.





The example Rock uses is it would be easier to push a car then pull it. Your explaination fits right in with what I said. Humans are far stronger pulling, then pushing.

That's why in the worlds strongest man, they can pull big rigs and trains... but only push a car.

I was agreeing with you, I just thought you were going to rip on me about the muscles and exercises. Nice to know I dodged a bullet there:thumb:

[Josiah]

I agree with your last statement, Josiah. What I don't agree with is when you said that the triceps are a pulling muscle. You pull your arms in with your biceps, and push it out with the triceps.

EDIT: BTW, the reason it's easier to pull a car than push it is because of friction more than anything else. When you push the car, you also push down, which is wasted effort. When you pull it, you actually pull it up a little bit, which lessens the friction with the ground (if only a little bit), and actually makes it easier to pull.


Haha or you could just as well say you pull it out with your triceps instead of push. ACtually, that would be the more acruate description as the force generated for movement is actually on the backside of the fulcrum.

It's the same reason you just said the bicep pulls the arm in, the force generated for movement is on the backside of the objects fulcrum.

It's mincing words, but the fact is that ricks article is just full of crap from the get go.



Your car theory is totally crap too. You need to take a physics class, or maybe just go walk outside and look at a car.

Go lift the bumper up, it'll move up a lil bit. Guess what, you didn't change how much weight is on the wheels. You only moved the car on the suspension.

Your idea would work if the car was solidly linked to the axles, except it isn't. Moving the car slightly on the suspension doesn't change the downward force on the wheels.

Also just spending 15 seconds thinking about it. That minute, if any, difference is not the difference between pushing a car... and pulling a train.


As I stated, contrary to Rick's super solid article, humans are far strong at pulling objects, then pushing them.

Even still I think most of that is crap anyway. We are talking about moving a tiny lil stick around. Get over it, put some effort in, shoot it might even be hard at first.


But as far as physical requirenments to play drums, there really are non. Some of the fatest, most overweight, out of shape drummers would smoke 99% of the people here.

In light of that, to concentrate, or really spending anytime trying to figure out wich grips are easier based on the muscle structure of the body seems absurd.

Just play.

[Japan3gro]

Damn Josiah with the double post.. just incase you didn't read it the first time. Way to get em Jos!

[Josiah]

Word.

People need to just play and stop over techniquing every little thing. It seems the great shift has gone from the means to an end, to just the means.

Tecnique this that and the other... bah. Just play, push yourself. It's the only way to get better no matter what, you gotta push yourself.

If you ain't sweating after 15 mins of practice, then it isn't practice.

[FockerTheLopper]

Ouch... BB started a fight with the 2 smartest people on the forum Josiah and Bone, BB good luck!
I agree that both are equal because look at 4 crazy drummers(clinicians) Rabb, Mangini, Lang, Donati each of them are equally crazy, and 2 use tradition(2 last) and 2 use matched(2 first) whos better its an opinion but the best player is most likely Donati(oddly a tradition) whereas the fastest is Rabb(Matched) least boring is Lang

[Bone]

..and yet.

My good friend vince switched to trad in his young 20's. And he's by far the greatest drummer seen on this planet.

Grip doesn't matter. All that matters is your dedication.

[PdoubleE]

I find traditional grip better for softer plaing and matched better for aggressive playing ..... just my 2 cents................

[Jezen]

I agree that both are equal because look at 4 crazy drummers(clinicians) Rabb, Mangini, Lang, Donati each of them are equally crazy, and 2 use tradition(2 last) and 2 use matched(2 first) whos better its an opinion but the best player is most likely Donati(oddly a tradition) whereas the fastest is Rabb(Matched) least boring is Lang

...Wtf!?

[LittlePound]

traditional for me allows me more control with my left hand in doing more dynamic and technical things but it seems really hard to get fast witht he left hand. I've been playing traditional a lot for the past year or so and it's still no where near my right hand and i focus on it a lot. So pro, good for dynamic control and techinical stuff, con, takes forever to build up speed and power with it