PDA

View Full Version : Classical & Flamenco


smuh
12-05-2005, 04:54 PM
Just wondering if anyone around here plays either? I've been messing around with classical & flamenco stuff for a while and I just got a good classical guitar yesterday so I want to start taking it seriously.

Firstly, is there anyone else here who plays flamenco on a classical guitar? I'm kind of worried about the fact that the action doesn't suit fast runs etc. but if that's the only difference (besides the sound) I don't really mind.

Secondly, anyone know some reallly good classical and/or flamenco guitar tuition books/dvds?

Lastly, can anyone recommend some classical/flamenco pieces to learn

Thanks

soldmysoul4rocknroll
12-05-2005, 05:50 PM
i really like spanish caravan by the doors. I know its a cover by the Doors, but i dont know the original artist

antiant
12-05-2005, 07:24 PM
check out:
1. Paco De Lucia
http://www.pacodelucia.org/
2. Jesse Cook
http://www.jessecook.com/
3. El Bicho
4. Ojos De Brujo
http://www.ojosdebrujo.com/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/awards2005/profile_ojosdebrujo.shtml

and here:
https://www.flamenco-world.com/ :D

Trigger_003
12-05-2005, 07:43 PM
I play flamenco on a classical... quite a few people do actually (I mean professionally as well).

I've been putting together a flamenco guide at http://www.tdknights.com/trea/flamenco.php, so have a look at that :).

smuh
12-06-2005, 11:19 AM
I'm a trained classical guitarist, so I'm familiar with a few flamenco techniques aswell.

As regards fast runs, with proper technique your left hand should be more than agile enough to complete fast runs. You'll never be able to play as fast as you will on electric, but what you sacrifice in speed you'll make up with clarity.

If you're serious about learning classical/flamenco, find a good teacher; if you can afford it, that is. Classical technique is difficult from a book and classical guitar is very much about technique.

I can play fast on electric but it's just that I don't think I can play fast enough on a classical guitar (alternate picking with a plectrum, that is) to learn the things I want eg. Paco de Lucia etc. What do you think?
And the only reason I'm not looking for a teacher at the moment is because I can't afford it at the moment so I kind of have to look for tuition books/dvds.

Trigger_003
12-06-2005, 03:24 PM
As I say on my site, the point of flamenco isn't to be able to play quickly, but certainly, if you're wanting to play works like Paco's, you're going to need to... eventually.

Would you be able to play at de Lucia speed on your electric? If you're still going to be using your pick, it really shouldn't take too long to adjust from electric to classical. With practise you should be able to get used to the differences fairly quickly. True flamenco guitars have a lower action (and hence less sustain) to facilitate those fast runs, but it's entirely possible on a classical.

If you're to play it correctly, it'll probably take you a while to get up to Lucia's standard, regardless of your left hand skills.
If you're keeping up the use of your pick, you won't be playing real flamenco, but more importantly, you'll find quite a few pieces (including a lot of Paco's stuff) practically impossible, simply because of the picking techniques required. But you can get by through faking it if you want. A lot of people are quite successful at this... you get guitarists like McLaughlin and Di Meola - both using picks - being able to play flamenco pieces with De Lucia.
You'll get more out of it in the long run if you actually go through and learn how to do rasgueados, flamenco tremolos, etc., but if you're not sure that you'll have a continued interest or find that you can get by with a pick, do it that way.

But yeah, have a look at my site if you want, try out the position and techniques which I hopefully explain well enough for you, and see what happens.

Hope that helps :thumb:.

smuh
12-07-2005, 07:24 PM
As I say on my site, the point of flamenco isn't to be able to play quickly, but certainly, if you're wanting to play works like Paco's, you're going to need to... eventually.

Would you be able to play at de Lucia speed on your electric? If you're still going to be using your pick, it really shouldn't take too long to adjust from electric to classical. With practise you should be able to get used to the differences fairly quickly. True flamenco guitars have a lower action (and hence less sustain) to facilitate those fast runs, but it's entirely possible on a classical.

If you're to play it correctly, it'll probably take you a while to get up to Lucia's standard, regardless of your left hand skills.
If you're keeping up the use of your pick, you won't be playing real flamenco, but more importantly, you'll find quite a few pieces (including a lot of Paco's stuff) practically impossible, simply because of the picking techniques required. But you can get by through faking it if you want. A lot of people are quite successful at this... you get guitarists like McLaughlin and Di Meola - both using picks - being able to play flamenco pieces with De Lucia.
You'll get more out of it in the long run if you actually go through and learn how to do rasgueados, flamenco tremolos, etc., but if you're not sure that you'll have a continued interest or find that you can get by with a pick, do it that way.

But yeah, have a look at my site if you want, try out the position and techniques which I hopefully explain well enough for you, and see what happens.

Hope that helps :thumb:.

I can pretty much can keep up with Paco de Lucia's stuff (by that I mean the Friday Night stuff) on electric. On a normal acoustic I can't really and less so on my new classical. I think it mainly due to the action. Fingerpicking-wise I'm not bad. I've been practicing stuff like Asturias and Paganini's 24th caprice. I find both hard in parts but I'm okay at a lot of it. I'm definately not going to stick pureley to using a plectrum, it's just that for the Friday night stuff I would have to. Paco de Lucia doesn't use tremolo picking on that album for the fast runs does he?
I want to learn flamenco as authentically as possible with no shortcuts so I'm definately going to stick it out.
In the mean time could you recommend some of your favourite classical or flamenco fingerpicking songs? Or just I could practice on?
One last thing, on that Friday Night in San Francisco album, the difference between the sound of Di Meola's guitar and De Lucia's guitar, is that the difference in sound between a classical and a flamenco guitar? Or is Di Meola's steel string? Do only flamenco guitars have that genuine spanish flavour to the sound?
Thanks alot

Trigger_003
12-09-2005, 02:57 PM
Okay, that's good :). It makes sense that it would be the difference in action. You should be able to get used to the higher action pretty quickly... just focus on it for a while and you should be right.

I’m not entirely sure of your level, but if you’ve got powertab (or want to get it from http://www.power-tab.net - it's cost and virus free so there are no worries there), check out the malaguena on http://www.power-tabs.net (under “traditional spanish” on the search) and let me know how you go with that. I'm guessing that wouldn't take too much work for you to get down - possibly minus the rasgueado part if you haven't learnt how to do that yet.

I would think that he would use a flamenco tremolo in quite a few places on that album, but he wouldn’t tremolo in the way an electric guitarist would.

As for the difference in sound, Al palm mutes a lot of sections, but besides that, Meola and McLaughlin were using steel strings for that album (I'm pretty sure they were anyway), whereas Paco's was a classical (or it might have been a flamenco… I've never looked into that). Even if they all had classicals, you can get a lot of variety simply with various woods, thicknesses, the way thye're set up, etc.

Anyway, no, that’s not the difference in sound between a classical and a flamenco guitar. Here’s some information on the differences between the two if you’re interested:
In the past, the Flamenco guitarist always had problems with the volume of his instrument. Originally, the Flamenco guitar was exclusively used as an accompanying instrument for cante (singing) and baile (dancing). Compared with the loud taconeos (percussive footwork) of the bailaoras (female dancers) and bailaores (male dancers) and the voices of the cantaores (singers), some of which were quite powerful, the guitar was always too soft.

That is why the guitarrero (guitar-maker) was asked to build a loud instrument and the guitarrista (guitarist) was expected to play so that everyone could hear him. The guitarreros solved this problem by building instruments with strong, brilliant, high notes, a high volume in the middle frequencies, almost no bass and a tone which had a very short ”attack” time, but also a very short “decay.” The Flamenco guitar responds instantly because it is very lightweight. The walls of the soundboard, bottom and sides are much thinner than those of a concert guitar. A Flamenco guitar with a good sound and a concert guitar are not comparable.

Everything else was up to the tocaor (guitarist). Over the years, the guitarists adapted a very loud, powerful toque which is still in use today, although electronic amplification is now quite common in Flamenco, as well. All techniques require playing close to the puente (bridge). Whether rasgueo (rasgueado), picado, arpegio or trémolo, the sound is always brilliant and dry…

Classicals have a deeper, more resonating sound and flamencos are kind of rougher and more archaic. Flamencos are a lot lighter and smaller too.

So the two do sound different, but it’s not a huge deal; you can still get a great Spanish sound through your classical which works fine for playing flamenco. And although some traditionalists would probably look down on it, if it’s more comfortable, you could even use your steel string or electric if you wanted, provided you have strong nails (but I’d advise sticking to the classical regardless). Whatever works for you :).

ManWithDaPlan
12-09-2005, 07:13 PM
As regards fast runs, with proper technique your left hand should be more than agile enough to complete fast runs. You'll never be able to play as fast as you will on electric, but what you sacrifice in speed you'll make up with clarity.

If you seriously believe this, you have some big misconceptions of both classical and flamenco guitar.

thenewaria
12-10-2005, 08:27 AM
well there is not many similarities between classical and flamenco

so which one do u want to play


and yer u cant really play flamenco very well on a classical guitar

Amit
12-10-2005, 03:22 PM
al played steel

john played nylon

paco played nylon or gut i forget

Trigger_003
12-10-2005, 10:06 PM
Oh ok, been ages since I looked that up.

ManWithDaPlan
12-11-2005, 10:49 AM
I could've swore John played steel string too. His tone sounded like a steel string, and whenever I've seen him in guitar trio videos, he used a steel string.

Amit
12-11-2005, 12:38 PM
I could've swore John played steel string too. His tone sounded like a steel string, and whenever I've seen him in guitar trio videos, he used a steel string.

really his tone definitely sounds like nylon and the videos i have with the guitar trio he is playing nylon

he rarely plays acoustic steel strings

ManWithDaPlan
12-11-2005, 07:49 PM
Then, again, I'm probably mistaking him for Al when I hear The Guitar Trio songs. I can typically tell Paco apart from the others (In recordings) because of his blatanly flamenco-inspired tone, and the natural tone of fingers as opposed to pick.

smuh
12-19-2005, 03:31 PM
Then, again, I'm probably mistaking him for Al when I hear The Guitar Trio songs. I can typically tell Paco apart from the others (In recordings) because of his blatanly flamenco-inspired tone, and the natural tone of fingers as opposed to pick.

Sorry to bring this post up again, but didn't Paco de Lucia mainly use a pick on that album? I just trying to clarify that he didn't use his fingers for any of the fast runs because that would be riduculous, albeit possible with a lot of practice.

Lydisk
12-19-2005, 03:52 PM
Sorry to bring this post up again, but didn't Paco de Lucia mainly use a pick on that album? I just trying to clarify that he didn't use his fingers for any of the fast runs because that would be riduculous, albeit possible with a lot of practice.

haha

you'll be amazed.

hatebreeder
12-19-2005, 05:54 PM
When youre starting off in classical good songs to learn would be bachs bouree in e minor, or his prelude in d minor, basically just buy a royal conservitory book. Good artists/cds to pick up are anything from naxos' guitar collection, if your into latin definately check out " cuban guitar music"

Amit
12-19-2005, 10:31 PM
Sorry to bring this post up again, but didn't Paco de Lucia mainly use a pick on that album? I just trying to clarify that he didn't use his fingers for any of the fast runs because that would be riduculous, albeit possible with a lot of practice.

all fingers all the time, baby

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22John+McLaughlin+and+Paco+De+Lucia +-+Live+At+Friedburg%22+playable:true

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22The+Guitar+Trio+%28Live+In+Lorele y%29%22+playable:true

DemBonez
12-19-2005, 10:56 PM
Check out Pepe Romero. His father (Celedonio Romero) was originally trained to be a flamenco guitarist when he fell in love with classical work and composed a bunch of stuff incorporating both. Pepe's my favorite musician of his kid's.

Ladyshredder126
01-14-2006, 06:51 PM
my personal favorite classical guitarist is adrian legg
check out the album 'guitar for mortals'

the first classical song i learned was santa cruz by david qualey- its very easy and its in drop d

my favorite classical song is classical gas by mason williams

CHECK OUT ANDRES SEGOVIA

JakeFloyd
01-15-2006, 11:59 AM
well there is not many similarities between classical and flamenco

so which one do u want to play

and yer u cant really play flamenco very well on a classical guitar

To play flamenco, I definately recommend starting out with classical. You will learn the basics of flamenco there, it is just how it's done.

I am also surprised that NO ONE has mentioned the right hand. Of course, the left hand is important when playing classical guitar, but the right hand is even MORE important. If your right hand cannot play the strings correctly, you will never be able to play beautiful. The sound and precision that your right hand makes is what separates a great player from everyone else.

My teacher and I spent my entire first year focusing on the right hand (of course, I played songs and exercises for my left) but it was focused on making my right hand agile and sound great. And my teacher is a great one, he taught his daughter who is now 16 and studying at USC under Pepe Romero. (I'm not trying to show off or anything, I just want to say that so you know that what I'm saying isn't fluff). He and his daughter have taken master classes from people like Christopher Parkening, Scott Tenant, and David Russell, and each of these great musicians have said that the right hand technique is first and foremost in playing good classical or flamenco guitar (they have also stated that it is the main thing most people overlook).

Anyway, if you do decide to pursue classical guitar, get this http://www.midi-classics.com/s/s2590.htm (Guiliani's 120 Right Hand Exercises) and begin by working on your right hand sound with your teacher. Guiliani said that if you can play each one of these exercises with ease, you will not have any trouble playing any of his works. When started practicing these, I would build up everyday. For the first day, I practiced one or two for maybe 20 minutes each. The next day, I would practice each of those for 5 minutes, and added a new one that I practiced 20 minutes. And so on. Eventually, you're going to have to drop some because you will obviously not have enough hours in a day! However, make sure you look back at each one every once n' a while.

Anyway, if you DO choose to study classical/flamenco, get a teacher. I also recommend you take theory lessons either with the teacher or separately. Make sure your teacher also teaches you how to read music Remember, if your teacher doesn't teach you how to read music, either tell him (and if he/she doesn't know how) get a new teacher.

Finding a teacher isn't something that should be thought of as "oh, here is a good teacher in the paper." You have to do research on the teachers you have found, learn their background, their degrees, find out how far their students have gone.

Anyway, if you feel like I'm being too critical it's because I am. I don't like it when people regard guitar as an easy instrument that everyone can play. These is this huge boom right now because kids feel so great and go start a band because they can play Nirvana songs. (Then we just get more and more **** music).

So remember, you won't become Paco De Lucia or Pepe Romero in a day, or a year, or even 10 years, but when you pursue an instrument, if you to do so seriously. There are hundreds and hundreds of kids in my high school who say they can play the guitar, but hand them a classical guitar and ask them to make a decent sound, and they freeze up. Ask them what a tremelo or rest-stroke is, they won't know. And in 5 years they may have progressed a little on their electric guitars, but you, my friend, will be a great player (even in 3 or 2 years, if you try). And not only on classical, but you will be able to pick up any electric or acoustic guitar and play along with your friends easily and fluently and with much more precision and skill. Good luck! :chug:

End rant thing.

what
01-16-2006, 04:37 PM
I'm a trained classical guitarist, so I'm familiar with a few flamenco techniques aswell.

As regards fast runs, with proper technique your left hand should be more than agile enough to complete fast runs. You'll never be able to play as fast as you will on electric, but what you sacrifice in speed you'll make up with clarity.

If you're serious about learning classical/flamenco, find a good teacher; if you can afford it, that is. Classical technique is difficult from a book and classical guitar is very much about technique.

pfft... listen to some yamashita

Bylian
01-21-2006, 12:48 PM
Does anyone know what the name of the spanish song by Sting is? It's just a simple spanish song, no vocals, just the guitar.

Shostaboy
03-06-2006, 07:52 PM
Hi.

After reading this thread, it is a relief for me to say that I now understand more about this technique.

I am a classical guitarist, and also play a lot of extreme metal stuff with loads of fast stuff.
However, I have this Standard Classical Alhambra 9C, which I have tried to learn the De Lucia style on. I am more of a beginner when it comes to flamenco. Thou, despite "extra strong tension" string, and tall action, I really do manage to get it right i believe. But I have to play loud as hell to get the right sound, and also very ponticello.

The left hand-work seems ok, I practised a heap of cheesy Y.Malmsteen stuff (Yeah,dont mention it!) many,many years ago, so my left hand is ok, regarding speed.

But I think there must be a lot more attention on the right hand technique. I just feel like using a pick is faking it. :p
I figured out that in order to get the right hand fast enough, I could not only use standard index finger, middlefinger, indexfinger , middlefinger alternation ( i m i m i m ....). So I tried out with playing both down and "upstrokes" with those two finger.

middlefing. and indexfing.:


M-down - I-down - M-up - I-up

Now I manage on 16ths on about 140 bpm with standard two-finger alternating with only downstrokes , AND two-finger down and upstroke for up to 270 bpm on 16ths.

I am now getting along better with the runs, thou I have to get lower action maybe, and maybe also strings with less tension.

I guess I got something right there. :)

Mediator
03-07-2006, 06:49 PM
Love flamenco myself

DeLorean
03-15-2006, 04:38 AM
I quite like the idea of playing in spanish mariachi style anyone know the relevant scales and whatnot..........Maleguena Salerosa = great song + Vamo Alla Flamenco

margin0walker
07-21-2007, 08:18 PM
flamenco is traditionally played on nylon stringed spanish classical guitar, dont play flamenco on steel strings that would be stupid

Turtle Soup
07-24-2007, 01:06 PM
i want to start flamenco or bossa but im lazy

tastexmyxscythe
08-08-2007, 10:29 AM
Secondly, anyone know some reallly good classical and/or flamenco guitar tuition books/dvds?

Lastly, can anyone recommend some classical/flamenco pieces to learn

I play Classical Guitar. Have been playing for about...hmm...three and a half years now I think.

I have a lot of great books, lemme get you some names.
M'kay, these are the ones I work with:

Diatonic Major and Minor Scales - Andres Segovia

The Essential Classical Guitar Collection - Alfred Publishing, arranged by Alexander Gluklikh (GREAT pieces in here. All classical pieces arranged for guitar. They've got Fur Elise, Moonlight Sonata, Bach pieces, Pachelbel's Canon and many others. I'm using a piece out of this book for my college audition.)

The Complete Carcassi Guitar Method - Mel Bay

Solo Guitar Playing 1 - Frederick M. Noad

Folio of Easy Classical Guitar Solos - Mel Bay

As for recommending pieces, I'd get the Essential Classical Guitar Collection. My only problem with Classical Guitar is that in my experience, my teacher hasn't given me what I've wanted in Classical Guitar. It's a HELL of a lot of technique, which is wonderful. But I want to play CLASSICAL MUSIC. So that book was perfect for me.
My audition piece is called Romanze, and it's written by an annonymous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq8fDapmuTI&mode=related&search=

and this is the last part which not many attempt. lawl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7O2tD3imy8&mode=related&search=