-=Everything Involving Time Thread=-

[Wizz]

Dunno if i'm allowed to make one , but if people post their knowledge here then i'm sure many beginning or even more advanced drummers would benefit from this.

Goal of this topic : Post as many information as you have about stuff involving time. Like whats the differance between 4/4 and 7/8. And why 16th notes are different from eight notes... Anyways i'm guessing you get my point.

Thnx =D

[Loyton]

I rather think this is a good idea. First post if this thing gets large!:thumb:

[Jezen]

I think it's time more people payed attention to the bottom number of a time signiature.
For instance, alot of people would think that 7/8 is a longer bar than 4/4.

Noope.

[Wizz]

I think it's time more people payed attention to the bottom number of a time signiature.
For instance, alot of people would think that 7/8 is a longer bar than 4/4.

Noope.

Then explain the difference between them



This thread is just an excuse for my knowing nearly nothing of time :lol:

[Jezen]

Note values:

These are easy as they are all simply halved to get to the next one. The note values are given two different names. One is the American way of counting them, and the other I have forgotten.

(forgotten name):

Semi-Breve
2 Minims
4 Crotchets
8 Quavers
16 Semi-Quavers
32 Hemi-Semi-Quavers

American:

Note
Half Note
Quarter Note
Eighth Note
Sixteenth Note
Thirty-Second Note

And so on and so forth.

[Jezen]

In a time signiature, there are two numbers. The bottom number will show a note value. This will be in the american format, so you won't ever find a number like 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11 or whatever.
The top number denotes how many of the bottom number (in terms of note value) will fill up each bar.

For example: A bar of 4/4 (C) will be 4 quarter notes each bar.

1/4 = 1 quarter note
2/4 = 2 quarter notes
3/4 = 3 quarter notes

etc etc...

Now i'll tell you why 7/8 is smaller than 4/4. Try comparing the bottom numbers:

4 7
- -
4 8

Ok, so 7/8 is 7 eighth notes per bar. Eighth notes are half the value of quarter notes obviously. 4/4 in terms of eighth notes, makes 8/8 except we don't express it in this way because time signiatures, like fractions, are simplified.
Therefore 7/8 is one eighth note shorter than 4/4.

[Wizz]

In a time signiature, there are two numbers. The bottom number will show a note value. This will be in the american format, so you won't ever find a number like 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11 or whatever.
The top number denotes how many of the bottom number (in terms of note value) will fill up each bar.

For example: A bar of 4/4 (C) will be 4 quarter notes each bar.

1/4 = 1 quarter note
2/4 = 2 quarter notes
3/4 = 3 quarter notes

etc etc...

Now i'll tell you why 7/8 is smaller than 4/4. Try comparing the bottom numbers:

4 7
- -
4 8

Ok, so 7/8 is 7 eighth notes per bar. Eighth notes are half the value of quarter notes obviously. 4/4 in terms of eighth notes, makes 8/8 except we don't express it in this way because time signiatures, like fractions, are simplified.
Therefore 7/8 is one eighth note shorter than 4/4.

Thats what i'm talking about Gj BB :thumb:

[styler]

thanks bb, i never knew what the second number was for, thanks man :D

[Josiah]

Dunno if i'm allowed to make one , but if people post their knowledge here then i'm sure many beginning or even more advanced drummers would benefit from this.

Goal of this topic : Post as many information as you have about stuff involving time. Like whats the differance between 4/4 and 7/8. And why 16th notes are different from eight notes... Anyways i'm guessing you get my point.

Thnx =D


That's not time, that's music theory. If you want to learn theory.. whatch as I kill this thread -


http://www.musictheory.net

Now how easy was that? Go study.


You want to play with great time? Spend as much time playing with a metronome as possible.

[Jezen]

^^^
Oww..My sore withered fingers...

[Josiah]

Ah sorry... see next time point them to a place that requires them to do the work.

Cause seriouslly, if you can't have the drive to go and spend 15 seconds on google on your own to look up basic theory... I can't fathom how in the world such a person has any dedication to learning to play drums.

[Wizz]

Ah sorry... see next time point them to a place that requires them to do the work.

Cause seriouslly, if you can't have the drive to go and spend 15 seconds on google on your own to look up basic theory... I can't fathom how in the world such a person has any dedication to learning to play drums.

Then whats the point of this forum , everything could be found on google.
I'm just trying to help people dude. Surely you can find stuff on google.
If someone asks you a picture of your kit , do you respond google it b*tch?

And you shouldn't say i'm not willing to learn drums i spend 2-3 hours a day learning stuff , practicing stuff to improve my techique , so don't behave like someone from the pit

[Josiah]

Then whats the point of this forum , everything could be found on google.
I'm just trying to help people dude. Surely you can find stuff on google.
If someone asks you a picture of your kit , do you respond google it b*tch?

And you shouldn't say i'm not willing to learn drums i spend 2-3 hours a day learning stuff , practicing stuff to improve my techique , so don't behave like someone from the pit


Now you're just being retarted. Not everthing can be found on google, the forum is amazing for personalized advice, opinions etc.. many things that can't be found on google.

But what you are asking about is literally 5th grade music theory. It doesn't even pertain exclusively to drums, but all instruments as a whole.

This is the most utterly basic music theory, wich is something most any child taking piano lessons knows. Not to mention, we are ONLY concerned about the rhythmic side, not the tonal side.. wich really means, we only need to know about 4% of all music theory to understand fully all music theory behind drumming.

Frankly, I'm not sure how you could get through a month of drumming without having learned this stuff.

Besides that even, drums are one of the hardest instruments to learn. If you don't have the self motivation to research the most simple, basic elements of musical knowledge: then how in the world will you ever learn to play such a complex and difficult instrument?

At some point we need to stop encouraging dependancy on others for the answers and instead cultivate enthusiasm for self-motivated learning. It has been shown throughout the ages that no matter what subject, the most powerful thing you can teach someone, is how to teach themself.




P.S. You know that whole, ya should look around a bit yourself... this thread you started, the subject matter of, and beyond, has already been wonderfully drawn up in a serious of lessons by Damo in the... HUH!? Lessons & Articles forum!?!

No way! Woa... amazing what looking around can find!

[flyguy]

In a time signiature, there are two numbers. The bottom number will show a note value. This will be in the american format, so you won't ever find a number like 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11 or whatever.
The top number denotes how many of the bottom number (in terms of note value) will fill up each bar.

I know how weird this must sound, but i have actually seen the number 6 appear at the bottom of a time signature in a classical piece of music. I was playing timpani and it was extremely weird to see that on paper. the time sig was 3/6, and i believe it was just 3 quarter note triplets, then back to 4/4. I still have no idea on why that would be written like that.

Agh.

[Josiah]

Hmm 3/6 would seem to imply dotted quarter note. Though in modern western notation now you would see a note at the top of the piece indicating such.

There would be a note wich would read ' 1/4 note = dotted 1/4 note ' just above the time signature.

[styler]

josiah is definitely back..sigh

[Jezen]

Now you're just being retarted

This marks the official return of Josiah Micheletti.

[chickensandwiches]

Burn! Damn Josiah: didnt need to shame the boy!:lol: :thumb:

[Josiah]

Well it's cause I'm rich beotch!!

[Jezen]

Real mature.

[Seafroggys]

i must declare this thread has complete ownage

jos is right....I started piano lessons at 5, and I knew how to read time sigs not even a year after that.

[Brokensticks]

This marks the official return of Josiah Micheletti.

Indeed it does, and it is a good thing for the most part.

[Massik Kretal]

Damn, he got BURNED!

Welcome back Jo, why were you gone? Everyone thought you were Bone.

[PdoubleE]

You want to play with great time? Spend as much time playing with a metronome as possible.
Metronome is the way to get your time down... If you want to perfect you time use a drumometer with the metronome

[Loyton]

Bone=josiah's kindfull counterpart. You know your skito's gettin bad when he makes seperate accounts on an online forum!

But really, everything jos. said was right, and i feel guilty for not knowing as much as i should about theroy.

Sidenote, ouch up there^

[PandaDrummer]

I dunno Bone=josiah + mean drunk

[Japan3gro]

I wish Bone was back....

[Wizz]

Frankly, I'm not sure how you could get through a month of drumming without having learned this stuff.

Besides that even, drums are one of the hardest instruments to learn. If you don't have the self motivation to research the most simple, basic elements of musical knowledge: then how in the world will you ever learn to play such a complex and difficult instrument?


First of all you should stf*. I love drumming and i do have self motivation.
else i wouldn't even on this forums

If 200.0000 topics on how be become uber 1337 on double bass like Joey joridison pop-up every week , i just have a quick laugh on the person made it.
I'm not gonna insult that person everytime for making stupid posts wich could be found on google.

Or another example , the drum pr0n thread. Would this be stupid to
I mean OMG you have a Google pictures section! damn you n00b for making stupid posts at this forum.

Don't be a f*gg Josiah , i'm just trying to make a topic wich would be good for beginners and if you don't like me , then just f0k off.

[aznriceball]

try lessons and beginners section. there tends not to be so much of that pr0n ur so afraid of

[Der Meister]

time is gay

[chickensandwiches]

Anybody know how to read compound time?
its really wierd, the top and bottom numbers have different meanings

[Josiah]

Damn, he got BURNED!

Welcome back Jo, why were you gone? Everyone thought you were Bone.

I'd say so.. the anger in his post was pretty funny.
Was on a surf trip, I go on them every year or so.

Metronome is the way to get your time down... If you want to perfect you time use a drumometer with the metronome


That's just becoming a bit absurd. That thing is useless anyway. Proof of that? How many of the greatest drumemrs of all time developed their skills prior to the drumometer's invention? Exactly.
Waste of money plus anything affiliated with the WFD is horrible on that basis alone.

Anybody know how to read compound time?
its really wierd, the top and bottom numbers have different meanings

Yes, and no. In a time signature (in western music) the meanings of the numbers never change, ever.
Compound time has to do with time that is in compound meters, 9/8, 7/4 etc

[jcreamer89]

Josiah you might not understand that some people on this forum having only been playing an instrument(drums) for around 2 years. Also many people on this forum have no formal training.

[Josiah]

Oh I do understand that greatly..

I also understand something else.. it's called, a brain. Watch this -

http://www.google.com/search?q=compound+time&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

'Compound Time' returned 27,400,000 in .34 seconds. The top 10 are virtually all identical in explaining, in depth, exactly what compound time is.


It's one thing to not know something, it's another to be flat out lazy or unmotivated when the answers are literally at your finger tips, in literally less then a second.

Wich doesn't even get onto the entire other thing... if you don't know about something, and are asking about it, then why are you making statements about it like you know the answer?
Because then look what happens... somebody has to say, no you are wrong already in your presumtions.. here is the correct answer.

Or that .34 seconds on google works too.


It's like these people who ask how to use Stick Control. First question.. did you read page 2? Where it says in big letters at the top "How to practice Stick Control"? One of my favorites due to the obviousness of it.

[Jezen]

Yes, and no. In a time signature (in western music) the meanings of the numbers never change, ever.
Compound time has to do with time that is in compound meters, 9/8, 7/4 etc

Josiah, 7/4 is not compound time.

[Flamacue]

Anybody know how to read compound time?
its really wierd, the top and bottom numbers have different meanings
I'll try and break it down, hope this helps a bit. Tis a bit complicated I have to admit, but you'll get the jist of it hopefully.

In non compound time, the top number represents the amount of beats in a bar, and the bottom number represents the value given to each beat. Example, 4/4 time signature. Top number means 4 beats per bar. Bottom number means each beat is worth the value of a 1/4 note. If it were 4/8 time signature, then each of the 4 beats would be the value of 1/8th notes. Same principal applies to all time signatures.

In compound time, it tends to be time signatures where the top number is multiples of 3, and the bottom number tends to be a value of 1/8 notes. However, even though you'll see compound time signatures written as 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 (which are the most common ones), each multiple of 3 has to be counted as 1 beat. Therefore, the only way to express each beat is to say: one 'dotted' crochet (which works out to be three 1/8 notes long) = one beat. At the top of a compound time piece of music, the tempo will be shown as dotted 1/4 note =??? bpm. Example: |. = 76 bpm.

A dotted note is the value of the note itself + half as much again.
Example: value of 1/4 note = two 1/8 notes.
value of dotted 1/4 note = two 1/8 notes + 1 more 1/8 note = three 1/8 notes.


In 12/8 for example, you will normally see 4 groups of three 1/8 notes. For instance, a hi hat part would look like:
1-an-a___2-an-a___3-an-a___ 4-an-a
.x x x.......x x x........x x x..........x x x
|. _______|. _______|. _______|. _______

Where x x x ( the hihat) is counted 1-an-a, and so on for each group of 3. And a bass drum stroke at the beginning of each beat would be a dotted 1/4 note as represented here by this line and a dot: |. So there are 4 bass drum strokes above. You can have more bass drum strokes or course, but this just shows a basic dotted 1/4 note example per every multiple of 3 hihats.

(I've tried to space the notes as best I can with extra dots and underscores as I don't know the code)

Hope that helps.

[Flamacue]

Btw, a crochet is a 1/4 note for all you americans :)
And also, compound time does not mean triplets. They seem like triplets but technically they're not, they're just grouped as 3 notes.

[Massik Kretal]

Theory is so complicated...and this is just sigs. :rolleyes:

[Flamacue]

Nah man, it's actually pretty easy, and this is coming from someone who is crap at maths! ( me). With drums, you don't have to learn sharps, flats, or notes, key changes, such as on a piano. All it is for drums is counting. If you can do basic arithmetic, which we all can, then that's all there is to it.

In a nutshell, learning to read music for drums is simply:

knowing the note values and their rests,

understanding the time sigs,

knowing which line each part of the drumkit is written on,

various symbols such as dynamics ( pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff,) pauses, repeats, etc

and the 'geography' of a piece of music ( ie,DS and coda, 1st and 2nd endings)



Not much more to it tbh. If I can read drum music, then anyone can. :)

[Josiah]

Josiah, 7/4 is not compound time.


I know this...


That's what I was saying rudy, as drummer we only need to know a fraction of the amount of music theory tonally based instruments do.

Gary Chaffee has a wonderful series of books on time.

[Japan3gro]

^^ Linear Time Playing: Funk & Fusion Grooves for The Modern Styles.... I have way toooo many books haha.

[Bone]

I wish Bone was back....


I never left, simply hadn't posted in this thread.


Just to remain on the topic though.. I believe it's a great thing for any musician to know music theory. Even if you don't use it on your instrument. While you aren't playing a instrument that's tonally based, we play WITH them a whole lot.
To have a better overall grasp of the big picture of the sound can never be a bad thing, and almost always is useful.

Though as far as having great time, simply play and practice with a click. All the time.

[flyguy]

^^ Linear Time Playing: Funk & Fusion Grooves for The Modern Styles.... I have way toooo many books haha.


oooo...good one. His patterns series are excellent too. Perhaps the best book series on the subject.

[Double Bass Jim]

this is coming from someone who is crap at maths! ( me).
Theres no way your worse then me at it! :lol:

Man I suck with numbers!

[Wizz]

try lessons and beginners section. there tends not to be so much of that pr0n ur so afraid of

Your not getting my point , i love the drum Pr0n thread , those kits are really nice but Josiah just seems to think every thread here is stupid

[crazyguy832]

Your not getting my point , i love the drum Pr0n thread , those kits are really nice but Josiah just seems to think every thread here is stupid
Compared to him we're stupid, and therefore our threads are.

:rolleyes:

If you really need to learn theory, and somehow can't learn it on online, go and get a one-hour lesson from a piano teacher (or guitar, or other note-based instrument) and get them to go over the basics of theory with you. I suppose you could talk to a drum teacher, too, but they're harder to find, imo. And if you have one, they should be able to tell you about theory.

:chug:

[Wizz]

i have a teacher!!!!!!!!!! leave me alone all of you!:angry:

[DxRocker]

hey wizz, relax, your thread is actually a succes. Everybody's talking about theory and compound time and stuff :D


To pick in on the subject at hand... Would it be correct to state that blues beats and shuffles are compound time or could be interpretated as such?
I remember we had a discussion once some time ago on wheter or not 3/4 would be the same as 6/8 (it wasn't). I understand a lot of blues music is written as 6/8 or 12/8? It could however also just as easily be viewed as simple 4/4.

I guess that my question is: what factor would determine on wheter a blues and/or shuffle beat will be written as a 12/8 or a 4/4?

I know the basics of time but never went deep into it. After 8 years of playing, I seriously regret it though. I'm getting into it lately (when I find the time though, busy life over here :( ). Better late then never I guess... :p

[Wizz]

hey wizz, relax, your thread is actually a succes. Everybody's talking about theory and compound time and stuff :D



I know :D , i'm cool
though i hate josiah :p

[Flamacue]

I believe I wasted my time typing all that stuff out.

[alexi2]

^^ nope, I've read it and must say it's really usefull, so thanks a lot.

[Wizz]

I believe I wasted my time typing all that stuff out.

Nop thnx dude good work! :)

[Josiah]

Your not getting my point , i love the drum Pr0n thread , those kits are really nice but Josiah just seems to think every thread here is stupid


No. Now that's just being stupid beyond belief. It's only your fault for making retarded comments.. I'm just pointing out the obvious. I obviouslly don't think every thread is stupid... though I'ms tarting to seriouslly think you are with all your crazy talk and inabbility to use a simple internet forum.

Your right, Rudy may not have wasted his time. But I guess Damo did.. he typed up a series of wonderful lessons on EXACTLY what you started a thread on.

So was Damo's work a waste? Or would you rather people go through the time to type out explainations.. so you can go and make redudent threads about the same thing?

Now that makes no sense at all. We have a LESSONS & ARTICLES Section. USE IT!!

Don't go telling all those people that their time writing that stuff out is useless by creating redudent and inferior threads. It's exactly what you've done, it cheapens the whole point of the articles & lessons thread. Wich is where this thread would go, except it's already been done 10x better had you only looked!

If you wantted to see drum pron, make a thread in the Gear & MEDIA section... if you want basic begginer theory.. that would go in wich Subforum?

And if you are looking for questions on theory, or lessons on... I bet there's some in the Lessons section.

The object of all this is to keep the forums running clean and organized. It's better for everyone that way.

So next time you want to create a thread asking about a subject that's already been explained at length in other current threads. Don't. Instead.. go make use of the time and effort those people put in to those lessons & articles. If you can't find it there... then post a question in the appropriate forum.

[Jezen]

Notice how one of Josiah's first returning moves is negative repping me.

Bastard.

[aznriceball]

^lol

everthing involving time?

d&p takes at least 1-2hrs of my time everyday

[Josiah]

Notice how one of Josiah's first returning moves is negative repping me.

Bastard.


I haven't repped anyone either way in some time. Not sure how anyones going to notice this accused event as even those recieving rep (good or bad) can't tell who it's from unless the person put it.

But since you accused me of it, I might as well now..

[DxRocker]

...

Ok, Flam: no it was not a waste of time (why did you even say that?). It was actually a very good explanation wich made me think a bit again. That's what triggered me asking the question I asked.

But everyone seems to think it's more usefull (regardless of the kinds of threads) to b*tch eachother rather then talking about the subject at hand.

O well... carry on I guess :rolleyes:

[Massik Kretal]

Not much more to it tbh. If I can read drum music, then anyone can.

I can read music, and I'm quite good at it. I just get frustrated with numbers and learning so I don't bother gettin to complicated. But I know my ****.