We want to improve the sound of our jam sessions.

[Eclypsis]

We always had an hard time to hear our singer and our keyboardist during the sessions. The problem is that the combination of the guitar, bass and drum is too loud for us. We will buy new amps but we had an idea and we want to know if it is realizable.

We'd like to take the outputs of the keyboard and vocal amps and to put them into some kind of console (A mixer maybe?). With that, we would take several outputs and use headphones to hear what's played by the keyboardist and singer.

I would like to know if it is possible to do so and if yes, what we need to use.

thanks

[isojoe420]

You could take the outputs of your amps like you are saying and send them to a mixer (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/631238/). Then take you could take the main outs of that mixer and go into a headphone amp (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/240109/). Now you could plug in headphones to the headphone outs depending on how many you need.

I am not saying you should use the products I linked to, but that will give you an idea. You might want more or less channels than the ones I provided.

[Eclypsis]

thanks :)

Is it possible to buy wireless headphones? That would be useful because we would need really long wires and that would be a total mess...

[isojoe420]

thanks :)

Is it possible to buy wireless headphones? That would be useful because we would need really long wires and that would be a total mess...
Yes, that is possible.

[Eclypsis]

What are the best wireless headphones because I've found a lot from 30$ to 200$!

[jaykemurd]

I dont know alot about wireles headphones...but look for any that are "studio monitors" , "professional". Normal, consumer headphones have their EQ jacked around to make normal music sound good. If your playing live, full band music, it won't be replicated correctly. It may even sound weird. Definatley buy decent wireless phones. I could imagine playing, having headphones cut in and out; having to stand like 3 feet from antenna.

[basgitarist]

instead of investing so much money in expensive gear to turn everything up, you could also just turn everything a tad down :thumb:

[halfdeadhippo]

instead of investing so much money in expensive gear to turn everything up, you could also just turn everything a tad down :thumb:
There's a certain point where it's simply unreasonable for the drummer to play any quieter, especially if the threadstarter's band plays rock or metal. I'm assuming that they already play at this level, so the only solution is to bring the keyboards and vocals up to volume with the rest of the band.

[isojoe420]

What are the best wireless headphones because I've found a lot from 30$ to 200$!
I also do not know enough about wireless headphones where I would be comfortable enough to recommend any. Sorry.

[Lady Lex]

There's a certain point where it's simply unreasonable for the drummer to play any quieter, especially if the threadstarter's band plays rock or metal. I'm assuming that they already play at this level, so the only solution is to bring the keyboards and vocals up to volume with the rest of the band.

or the drummer could use brushes?

[airborne50caliber]

or the drummer could use brushes?

Common misconception: "Brushes sound exactly like sticks just quieter, and are therefore undeniably perfect for rock or metal which has to be played quietly"

Wrong, buddy.

[Eclypsis]

Common misconception: "Brushes sound exactly like sticks just quieter, and are therefore undeniably perfect for rock or metal which has to be played quietly"

Wrong, buddy.

I didn't know that brushes were used it Metal or Rock. We are actually a mix of both. Our guitar is actually not that loud at all. It's really the drum that is much louder than the rest. We don't really want to kill our hears by putting the volume high for everyone...

The headphones option really seemed good. And it's not that expensive considering we are 5 in the band.

[super_kick08]

well if your gunna spend..lets say...200 on 5 pairs of wireless headphones each..+a mixer and a headphone amp..that could add up to like....$1500+ it would be better and more worth your while to buy a decent PA and a keyboard amp..and plus you can use that stuff in live situations

[Eclypsis]

what is a PA?

[super_kick08]

its basically a power amp (or a head) thats you can plug microphones or line ins into...that has two+ speakers hooked up to it..and you can control the levels..you can also plug they keyboards into it..but a keyboard amp is more suited for it

[Eclypsis]

Won't it be a wiser choice to buy a better PA like the singer and the keyboardist than a PA and a keyboard amp. What are the good keyboard amps and PA?

[Akira]

Common misconception: "Brushes sound exactly like sticks just quieter, and are therefore undeniably perfect for rock or metal which has to be played quietly"

Wrong, buddy.
Haha, my drummer made sure we (my band) learned that fast.

[Flik]

Sorry if this has already been braught up, or I missed something but -

Have you 'really' asked yourself why you have this problem? :)

[Eclypsis]

Sorry if this has already been braught up, or I missed something but -

Have you 'really' asked yourself why you have this problem? :)

Sure I did. I am not a drummer. I am a keyboardist. When I play at home I just put some headphones and it's really quiet! My drummer could play more softly but I don't think he will. He says that in order to drum at your full capacity, you have to hit as hard as you can...

[UsefulIdi0t]

Sure I did. I am not a drummer. I am a keyboardist. When I play at home I just put some headphones and it's really quiet! My drummer could play more softly but I don't think he will. He says that in order to drum at your full capacity, you have to hit as hard as you can...

lol you don't have to hit as hard as you can to drum at full capacity

[Aus_rock_god]

The problem with wearing headphones is that the headphones you'd need to be able to hear anything over the drums and guitars are insulated. So unless you wear them over one ear, you'll be able to hear the keys and vocals clear as a bell, but everything else will be muffled.

[Aus_rock_god]

or the drummer could use brushes?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[kevbud187]

lol you don't have to hit as hard as you can to drum at full capacity
12345

Tell the motherfu'cker to adjust his sticking hieghts to like three inches. If he doesnt know what that is the boy is not a drummer. lol. If you try and play as loud as possible on the drums polyrythms become later than the prom queen in august and everything just becmoes a huge sticking cluter fu'ck.

[Aus_rock_god]

what is a PA?

Holy sh!t, oddly I didn't see that until just then.

A PA is what you need to buy dude.

Put simply, you plug your microphones and keyboard into it, and it makes them loud and stuff.:thumb:

[Caleb3221]

Your drummer has a LONG way to go if he thinks he needs to hit hard to play at full capacity. Dynamic control is one of the most important skills for a drummer to have. So, try to get him to play quieter.

Sidenote, brushes can be used in a rock setting. You don't use them the same as sticks, they don't sound the same as sticks, but they can give a different sound that does in fact work.

Barring that, a PA is probably your best et.

[Eclypsis]

The problem with wearing headphones is that the headphones you'd need to be able to hear anything over the drums and guitars are insulated. So unless you wear them over one ear, you'll be able to hear the keys and vocals clear as a bell, but everything else will be muffled.

The drum sounds really good with headphones. It is the only way to not make it too loud. We could also put the guitar directly in the headphones...

And we're mainly looking for a way to hear the keyboard and the voice really well...

[Aus_rock_god]

Dude, seriously, buy a PA. If you have enough money for wireless headphones, you'd definantly have enough money to buy at least a cheap PA system.

Headphones a great for recording, but when it comes to rehursing, a PA is the best bet because:

If you practice with headphones, once you're on-stage and relying on foldback, it will feel very weird.

You are able to move around the room freely and pick what you want to listen to.

Using headphones at high volumes for long periods of time can seriously damage your hearing (even more so than not wearing earplugs in a noisy environment).

Your singer will not learn microphone control and once he gets on stage he'll/she'll feed-back like a madman motherfu*ker.

Your singer won't learn any sort of voice control, and more than likely will end up singing too quietly.

You're better off spending $700 on an okay PA system, that you can use outside rehursal than spending $1000 on a wireless headphone system that is useless outside rehursal and is likely to get broken quickly.

Besides, seriously, your drummer sounds like he needs to learn better technique if he thinks he needs to smash the sh!t out of his skins. You get the same sound hitting them at a medium velocity, and you can play faster and with stronger timing.

The drummer in my band can hit triplets at 220bpm, and he doesn't hit very hard at all, and we have no problem hearing him over our amplifiers, and we have our volumes at about 100db (we're animals). We also use a PA system running at about 105db, and he's quieter than that, so I'm guessing he hits at about 103db ish.

If our drummer is capable of being loud without trying, I garrantee yours is too. Tell him to calm down and PLAY his instrument, buy a PA and I garrantee you'll have no more issues.

Actually, what is your singer using at the moment????

[Eclypsis]

103dbs is quite a lot... We will tell him to play quietly. For the moment, the drum is, by far, the thing with the highest volume. Our singer use a vocal amp that we own and we cannot hear much of what she sings. She makes a lot of feedback (like a mother****er yeah!) though. Her microphone is good. We just think that the problem is the amp.

If our drummer uses his double pedal, we don't hear anything else... We really want to lower the sound... Is there a way to soften a drum, without buying an electric one (that would be awesome but he seems old-school and prefer traditional stuff)?

I fear nothing with my singer. She's trained as an opera singer so we should not worry about her being too quiet. I don't agree that we'll be lost during shows because we are used to another kind of system. We are used to play and only hear the drum correctly so as long as that remains the case, we won't have any problems. Actually, it always been easier in shows than in practices. I don't see why this system is likely to be broken quickly though.

[Aus_rock_god]

Headphones always get broken quickly, especcially when handled by musicians (it's true).

Try having her and the vocal amp at opposite ends of the room, with her facing the amp. Hang a blanket or curtain behind her. That should stop the feedback, and you'll be able to turn the mic up louder. Also cut the frequncies that feed back. You'll be sacrificing some harmonics, but you'll get more volume.

[Akira]

Solution to this problem: Find a real drummer instead of a talentless moron who thinks he has to hit as hard as possibly to sound good.

[Eclypsis]

Solution to this problem: Find a real drummer instead of a talentless moron who thinks he has to hit as hard as possibly to sound good.

The talentless moron that are you talking is actually a 17 yrs old boy that plays Liquid Tension Experiment :rolleyes:

Actually, he said that he had, in order to play at full capabilities, to hit as hard as he could. Now that we know that he doesn't need to, we'll have a word with him and that should be enough.

I don't think headphones will break that quickly. We may be musicians but we really are careful with our stuff... And we will find a new rehearsal room so we won't be bothered anymore by our roommates.

As for the 103 dbs, our singer looked in her physiology book (she studies in medecine), and it was said that the limit for ears damage was around 90-93dbs.... We'll try to remain at around 90 dbs!

[airborne50caliber]

your drummer doesen't sound very informed.

[Aus_rock_god]

As for the 103 dbs, our singer looked in her physiology book (she studies in medecine), and it was said that the limit for ears damage was around 90-93dbs.... We'll try to remain at around 90 dbs!

Actually, hearing damage works like this:

0 - 40 db: No immidient damage.

40 - 90 db: 4 hours of constant exposure causes damage.

90 - 100 db: 3 hours of constant exposure causes permanent damage.

100 - 120 db: 1 hour of exposure causes permanent damage.

120 - 125 db: Permanent damage no matter how shortly you're exposed without protection.

125 - 130: Will deafen or badly damage your hearing if exposed for more than a few seconds without protection.

130 - 140: Can render you unconcious.

140+: Will kill you.

Hearing damage works like this:

Inside your inner ear (the cochlia, the shell-looking thing) there are tiny hair-like cells that vibrate with air pressure. These cells send signals along nerves to the brain and blah blah blah.

High frequenies make the tip vibrate, and low frequencies make the entire cell vibrate, which is our judgement of frequency. Low volumes only the first few rows, while exremely loud volumes hit the cells in the back (our judgement of volume).

Air pressure inside the cochlia and vibrations though our bones, is what enables us to hear.

Unfortunantly, in order to work, the cells have very thin membranes, and are delicate, and a suseptable (sp?) to any kind of air pressure. Eventually, the membrane breaks and they "spring a leak", rendering the cell damaged, and permanently in the "on" postion (the ringing in your ears).

The more a cell is used, the shorter it will live (this is why you have to shout at the elderly, because they've used up all the front row).


We limit our rehursals to 45 minutes, followed by a 15 minute smokeo break, before we go back in.

Unless you lock yourself in a soundproof room with earmuffs of, everyone will suffer some hearing damage, no matter how quietly you play.

We play loud because we love our music and we're a bunch of animials :thumb: .

Don't get me wrong, keeping your volume low is really good (you'll be able to hear your singer better), but realise that even playing at 80 db will cause damage, and when you're old it's better to be deaf so that you have an excuse not to listen to people, so, if you love to rock FU(KING CRANK IT! :thumb:

[Boxman]

my suggestion is get a wooden screen and set it up infront of the drummer
im no expert but i think this would muffle the drums a little, so your drummer can keep playing as loud as he wants but everyone else in the room can hear eachother

this means no buying expensive equipment (though you may need a PA at some point i guess), no fiddling around with wireless headphones (i have a pair, fall off easily and have to be tuned in again), and all you need is a couple of bits of wood

[KKKKKocaine]

Actually, hearing damage works like this:

0 - 40 db: No immidient damage.

40 - 90 db: 4 hours of constant exposure causes damage.

90 - 100 db: 3 hours of constant exposure causes permanent damage.

100 - 120 db: 1 hour of exposure causes permanent damage.

120 - 125 db: Permanent damage no matter how shortly you're exposed without protection.

125 - 130: Will deafen or badly damage your hearing if exposed for more than a few seconds without protection.

130 - 140: Can render you unconcious.

140+: Will kill you.


Hmm I'm not sure. I was always taught a different scale in Acoustics. 85dBa marked the 8 hour period. And each increment of 5dBa halved the time.
Not to say you're wrong because I could be but I'm fairly sure a 5dBa increase is more than it seems and 95dBa is actually twice the amplitude of 90dBa.

In fact, I've just been interwebbing and according to http://www.digital-recordings.com/publ/pubear.html
That 100dB has 32 times the destructive power of 85dB.

Also,

In the range of safe sound levels (let's say up to 85 dBA for a 8 hour exposure) adjustment should not be restricted. However, levels above 85 dBA are dangerous and can cause permanent hearing damage. Given the choice, most sensible people would not knowingly choose to put themselves in an environment that was considered hazardous to their health. However, many patrons are unaware of the potential danger of sustaining permanent hearing loss and are also unaware of the fact that noise levels over 85 dBA are dangerous.

Also according to this site,
http://www.lhh.org/noise/decibel.htm
Rain is at approximately 50dB.
I find it hard to believe that,
1. 4 hours of rain harms your hearing
2. That 4 hours of rain harms your hearing equally in a 4 hour period as a tractor at 90dB.

It just doesn't seem to make any sense.
If you consider the growth in damage from 85dB to 100dB. A mere 15dB increase makes the latter 32 times more as destructive.
Then how can rainfall at 50dB do the same amount of damage as something 40dB louder?

I don't mean to start an argument, or try and be pretentious but I'm pretty sure you've been taught something wrong or you've misinterpretted something wrong because I really can't see how 4 hours of a 40dB sound can cause damage.
To put that into context, 40dB is roughly,

1. A quiet office/ libary (Bear in mind that normal conversation itself is 60dB on average)
2. A quiet residential area.
3. 10dB quieter than a noisy fridge.
I just don't think your statistics are right. Especially seen as the currently accepted level of dangerous noise is about 85dB-90dB and that's the legal level that staff working in those enviroments must be provided with hearing protection by their employer.

[Rounder]

Your drummer has a LONG way to go if he thinks he needs to hit hard to play at full capacity. Dynamic control is one of the most important skills for a drummer to have. So, try to get him to play quieter.

Sidenote, brushes can be used in a rock setting. You don't use them the same as sticks, they don't sound the same as sticks, but they can give a different sound that does in fact work.

Barring that, a PA is probably your best et.

look, there is such a thing as dynamic control. However, drums are meant to be played loud, they sound best when hit very hard, (assuming you are playing some type of rock, Ive never seen a single successful rock band 'play quiet', ever.) Sure the drummer can play quieter, but if you start having to play quiet, the drummer is going to be playing quieter when it comes time to be playing loud. The drummer needs to play the way he will play during recording and gigging. Where are you practicing? if in a garage, a PA would be ok, and you can turn everything up (as long as there is adequate space to avoid mic feedback.) and everyone including the drummer needs earplugs in this situation.

If in closer surroundings, you could go the way of a small mixer.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MAC1402VLZPRO

this is the mixer brand we use, only we have the big daddy. But mackies are great, and a heaphone amp you can get pretty cheap along with heaphones extended cables to avoid having to purchase wireless ones. You can get ok monitor heaphones from 20-50 bucks.

hell you could even mic the drums. They sound waay better through heaphones mic'd.

[Eclypsis]

Hum... damn password I had lost it...

Ok we told our drummer too play more quietly. He didn't really wanted to and told us once more, that he had to play loudly! Our singer tols him that it was better if he wasn't at full capability if it allowed her to hear herself... He understood.

We still are thinking about the headphones system. We really are not that loud now... I mean compared to the bands practicing around...

I liked to see the decidels scale you've put. Since there was a debate about wether it is accurate or not, I'll ask my singer to tell me what the scale is exactly. I know that it is a logarithmic scale. This means that for each 10 decibels, the intensity of the sound is 10 times stronger.

[Rounder]

i could be wrong but don't you mean exponential? Logarithm is something a little different i think.

[Aus_rock_god]

I don't mean to start an argument, or try and be pretentious but I'm pretty sure you've been taught something wrong or you've misinterpretted something wrong because I really can't see how 4 hours of a 40dB sound can cause damage.


Ya, looking back at what I typed I didn't really specify the amount of damage I was talking about (I was in a hurry, from what I remember).

When I said 'damage', I ment stress on the eardrum and cochlia that eventually heals itself.

So four hours of constant noise at 50db, stresses your inner ear and things become a little muffled, but after a while, your hearing becomes right as rain (ha ha ha) again.

You have to remember that the eardrum and the inner ear are very delicate and sensitive, and constant pressure will put stress on them.

It's like how if you have a condencer mic with a large diaphram, and store it out of it's box on a shelf below a telivision. You'll find that you have to replace the diaphram more regularly than if you store it inside it's foam box, in a quiet place like under your bed.

Now, PERMANENT damage, is when those cells I was talking about start popping. This is the ringing in your ears you get. This never heals.

The current level of dangerous sound levels in the workplace starts at 85-90db because you spend more than 3 hours working in a factory, or construction site, between breaks.

But yeah, I should have clarified what I was talking about. Sorry for the confusion dude. :thumb: .

[Eclypsis]

i could be wrong but don't you mean exponential? Logarithm is something a little different i think.

exponentials and logarithms are the same thing...

y = c^x <=> x = log(y)/log(c)

In our case, c=10.

Thus, we have: x = log(y)

In our case, the "y" is the amount of "power" and the x is the value on the decibels scale.

I don't know much about decibels or human biology but I surely know maths!