View Full Version : zcustoms vs. B8pros/AA's/AAX's
fatcow2000
10-31-2005, 09:47 PM
could the thickness of the zcustom line of cymbals make them more prone to cracking? i play fast, heavy music and ive found that a thinner cymbal (i.e. sabian b8pro medium crash, 16") lasted longer than the thicker cymbal (i.e. zcustom rock crash, 18")... i was thinking, that since the zcustoms were so thick, the vibrations in them last longer, and if you know anything about physics, the vibrations could be compared to earthquakes, and eventually break the cymbal. so due to the thickness, the vibrations lasted longer and were more severe than the thinner cymbal...
does this sort of explain why the thinner cymbal would last longer than a thicker one?
(just popped into my head)
playwithfire
10-31-2005, 09:50 PM
The cymbals you're talking about were both crap though. Thin cymbals have more give, so shouldn't break easily, but the Z Customs are still more durable. AA Metal X, AA Metal, Z Customs, etc. All of them are built like tanks to withstand the heaviest of hitting.
Aaron
10-31-2005, 10:31 PM
if your hitting a thinner cymbal that moves with you it will loose alot of the energy in the up-down battle with gravity you see as it vibrating, however, thicker cymbals are designed to take the shock of the impact in the sheer size of the metal.. no cymbals last forever and have a specific life, if your hitting a crash heavily, it will break, its how it goes.
fatcow2000
10-31-2005, 10:36 PM
so my theory makes some sense, but not total sense.
mooffy
10-31-2005, 11:06 PM
i was thinking, that since the zcustoms were so thick, the vibrations in them last longer, and if you know anything about physics, the vibrations could be compared to earthquakes, and eventually break the cymbal. so due to the thickness, the vibrations lasted longer and were more severe than the thinner cymbal...
if you hit a thick cymbal and a thin cymbal with the exact same amount of force in the exact same way, shouldn't the thinner cymbal vibrate longer since it takes more force to move the heavier cymbal than the thinner cymbal?
and i don't think you can compare hitting a cymbal with a stick with two tectonic plates interacting, though they both cause vibrations...
fatcow2000
10-31-2005, 11:23 PM
well, if the drumstick is one techtonic plate, and the cymbal is another, its like an extremely forceful techtonic movement....
i just figured the thin cymbal would decay a lot faster, as the sound does. while the thicker would have more vibration.
playwithfire
10-31-2005, 11:26 PM
Well you hae to be talking about the same force being put into the cymbal. If you put enough force into the heavy cymbal to get full tone out of it, and that same force into the thinner cymbal, a thin cymbal will break faster.
bobby__johnny
10-31-2005, 11:34 PM
if you hit a thick cymbal and a thin cymbal with the exact same amount of force in the exact same way, shouldn't the thinner cymbal vibrate longer since it takes more force to move the heavier cymbal than the thinner cymbal?
and i don't think you can compare hitting a cymbal with a stick with two tectonic plates interacting, though they both cause vibrations...
not nessessairly. the thinner cymbal has less mass (assuming same sizes here)
therefore, the vibrations would disperse faster. same as if you compare the sustain to a 16" and 18" crash
fatcow2000
10-31-2005, 11:51 PM
also you get a sound out of a thinner cymbal easier.. so the force doesnt need to be as harsh...
beaker_747
11-01-2005, 01:42 AM
Thinner cymbals tend to respond alot quicker than thick cymbals.
playwithfire
11-01-2005, 03:05 AM
^Of course they do, there is less cymbal to move.
fritzz
11-01-2005, 03:19 AM
well, i don't think they will break easier. It would be stupid, to make them thicker, but they break easier. I think they are thicker, not to break that easy. I have a Z custom 16 crash (thick) and a 18 802 paiste crash ( thin) and I have them for a year I think, and they're both not brokeN.
could the thickness of the zcustom line of cymbals make them more prone to cracking? i play fast, heavy music and ive found that a thinner cymbal (i.e. sabian b8pro medium crash, 16") lasted longer than the thicker cymbal (i.e. zcustom rock crash, 18")...
I have pondered this a lot. I do believe that its probably the line of cymbals, rather than the thickness. The Z Custom line has a very heavy set of hammer marks on the surafce, regularly spaced. To make those marks, the machine punches at a sheet of metal, and stretches it, to form the depressions. ALmost all the cracks Ive ever seen on Z Customs have come from one hammer marks to the next, in what is theoretically the weakpoint of the hammering. Let me show you visually:
http://members.westnet.com.au/petrilli/x.jpg
You can see that the 'walls' of the depression are thinner where the metal has been stretched to make the hammer indentation (the black diagram)
I have found in my experience with these cymbals that if a crack appears in this depression, it will travel from one weak point to another, which could explain why the Z customs always seem to crack inside the cymbals, rather than on the edge where they are hit.
Brilliant, I have seen the same thing myself but it never occured to me it came from the hammering.
Makes sense though in this light...
Aaron
11-01-2005, 05:31 AM
its what happens when cosmetics are put before quality and durability.
Well, obviously every cymbal is prone to this, as all cymbals are hammered - But with the Z customs (particularly in the higher sections of the bow) IMO the hammer marks are too broad and too closely placed next to one another.
Basically, I dont believe its the hammering itself per se, but more the proportions of how and where theyve hammered it that could be causing the problem.
10571z
11-01-2005, 05:49 AM
we need myth busters
Drum Phil
11-01-2005, 05:53 AM
Im sure i heard that the Z Customs crack easily because they're overhammered, so what damo was saying supports that perfectly.
Aaron
11-01-2005, 06:07 AM
we need myth busters
or at least jim's moustache!!!
aznriceball
11-01-2005, 10:30 AM
thinner cymbals are the ones that in my experience tend to crack. thick plates like rudes and z customs seem to just fall apart :lol:
playwithfire
11-01-2005, 02:35 PM
What Damo said makes a ton of sense, I never bothered to think about it like that, although I have seen what he is talking about.
fatcow2000
11-01-2005, 02:47 PM
makes sense... thats why they crack in random places... i see.
fullmetalhaallee
11-01-2005, 04:25 PM
Yo threadstarter, isnt Hollywood Florida right near Aventura? If so I have been there a lot. My grandparents have a winter home there.
Double Bass Jim
11-02-2005, 01:27 AM
Nice one damo, never thought of that.
fatcow2000
11-02-2005, 06:01 AM
Yo threadstarter, isnt Hollywood Florida right near Aventura? If so I have been there a lot. My grandparents have a winter home there.
yes, its sort of south of aventura, about 5-10 mins, depending on traffic. nice place.
3_times_round
11-02-2005, 08:59 AM
Remember when talking about beating the **** out of a cymbal, they do have a maximum volume. If you can find the maxiumum volume level of a cymbal then it should last longer as you won't need to smack it to achieve its full volume.
Revenga
11-02-2005, 02:48 PM
I've seen alot of Z's without mass hammering... they almost looked like A Customs... am I crazy, or do they exist?
nelldog
11-02-2005, 03:12 PM
I think there are a line of Z's that dont have the heavy hamering also the z hi hats have star shaped hammering which is cool in look but its just sending a crack (if there ever is one) down an straight road. i think the z custom line has a few non-hammered cymbals where is the same thickness but tuned like an a custom.
reading this just makes me think that there is a higher level of thought here hmm i wonder how many "steve vai is cool threads" are at the guitar section...
but tho i have never seen an cracked z i wouldsay that would make alot of sense but yet there are a few sabian lines have very deep grooves and this if cracked will just send the crack right along the cymbal until you've got a flap coming ut of your cymbal.
There are no Sabians that are hammered like Z Customs, or anything close. The nearest distant Sabian relative would probably be the Leopard Ride, but thats about 10 times thicker than a Z Custom.
GooseFilms.net
11-02-2005, 04:09 PM
The nearest distant Sabian relative would probably be the Leopard Ride, but thats about 10 times thicker than a Z Custom.
For anybody wondering what the Leopard Ride looks like, here's a picture of Russell Crowe holding one.
http://www.dreamworksfansite.com/gladiator/presskitgallery/More_Action.jpg
fatcow2000
11-02-2005, 04:14 PM
hehe
Double Bass Jim
11-02-2005, 04:16 PM
Hahahahaha ^
Revenga
11-02-2005, 05:33 PM
Hahaha...
Yeah, cause I was just watching an old P.O.D. video (Southtown) and Wuv was using Z's but they had no heavy hammering marks. I've never heard that line.
But horray for him switching to K's and A Customs.
Aaron
11-02-2005, 07:25 PM
"commander of the roman army, father of a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife, owner of aheads.."
FockerTheLopper
11-02-2005, 07:34 PM
I have pondered this a lot. I do believe that its probably the line of cymbals, rather than the thickness. The Z Custom line has a very heavy set of hammer marks on the surafce, regularly spaced. To make those marks, the machine punches at a sheet of metal, and stretches it, to form the depressions. ALmost all the cracks Ive ever seen on Z Customs have come from one hammer marks to the next, in what is theoretically the weakpoint of the hammering. Let me show you visually:
http://members.westnet.com.au/petrilli/x.jpg
You can see that the 'walls' of the depression are thinner where the metal has been stretched to make the hammer indentation (the black diagram)
I have found in my experience with these cymbals that if a crack appears in this depression, it will travel from one weak point to another, which could explain why the Z customs always seem to crack inside the cymbals, rather than on the edge where they are hit.
Lets not forget about those pesky wood folicals you get from using non Aheads!
This will only be funny to those who were in that thread that had the ahead letter explaining why their better then wood
FockerTheLopper
11-02-2005, 07:36 PM
For anybody wondering what the Leopard Ride looks like, here's a picture of Russell Crowe holding one.
http://www.dreamworksfansite.com/gladiator/presskitgallery/More_Action.jpg
lmao!!!
straycat101
11-02-2005, 08:29 PM
get some Aquarian Cymbal Springs if your worried about cracking. i would get this on any china, no hesitation.
playwithfire
11-02-2005, 08:57 PM
Hahaha...
Yeah, cause I was just watching an old P.O.D. video (Southtown) and Wuv was using Z's but they had no heavy hammering marks. I've never heard that line.
But horray for him switching to K's and A Customs.I'm pretty sure he uses pretty much all A's. Maybe he switched though, every drummer uses so many cymbals anyway, it's never just what's on their artist roster on the cymbal websites.
On another note... that Gladiator spoof was pretty funny :lol:.
Revenga
11-03-2005, 06:32 AM
Yeah, I know. But in the particular video, he used all Z's... keep in mind this was 1999, too. Does anyone know if that line of them are better than the usual overly-hammered ones?
get some Aquarian Cymbal Springs if your worried about cracking. i would get this on any china, no hesitation.
those things are crap. you dont need it. gimmick
innerlo2
11-03-2005, 08:37 AM
They are not a gimmik, simple physics tells you that. (the springs I mean not the aheads lol)
As for Z's, yeah I've always seen them crack. I think the problem is that they don't flex like most cymbals. Thus when they take a hit, which they tend to get hit harder anyways, they don't bend into the impact. All the shock is focused on the impact location of the stick, where as most cymbals flex and the force is spread throughout the cymbal. This new hammering idea could also play a role, but I can say everyone I've known that used Z's has broken them. ;)
innerlo2
11-03-2005, 08:38 AM
For anybody wondering what the Leopard Ride looks like, here's a picture of Russell Crowe holding one.
http://www.dreamworksfansite.com/gladiator/presskitgallery/More_Action.jpg
Sigh, mine didnt come with a gladiator.. all I got was a cymbal.
Sigh, mine didnt come with a gladiator.. all I got was a cymbal.
everyones comes with a gladiator dude. you got jipped.
:smash:
:upset:
innerlo2
11-03-2005, 09:21 AM
everyones comes with a gladiator dude. you got jipped.
:smash:
:upset:
But mine only cost me $30.00, must be the no gladiator included price :P
playwithfire
11-03-2005, 10:16 AM
This new hammering idea could also play a role, but I can say everyone I've known that used Z's has broken them. ;)That probably has just as much to do with the drummers as the cymbals. The majority of people who buy into Z Customs and other "heavy metal cymbals" are morons who have no technique in the first place, aside from bad technique. They figure if they buy the heavy duty cymbals they will never break because they are made to take a beating... too bad *all* cymbals can crack.
To whoever was asking, yes, there was an old Z line before Z Customs. IMO they sounded better, had a traditional finish, weren't as massive in weights, and also didn't have the same hammering.
njdrummerguy27
11-03-2005, 10:37 AM
i have been using z s for the past few years and i always seem to get the spider crack in the middle of the cymbal. i have never ever seen a crack at edge of my z's this interesting point now makes mee think about switching to another line.
playwithfire
11-03-2005, 10:47 AM
I've always been firm in saying you never need heavier cymbals than Rock modeal A's or AA's... even Medium crashes are loud and cutting enough. You don't need any of this "20" Z Custom Projection crash: Zildjian's LOUDEST crash ever!" baloney.
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