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Six Foot Revolver
10-29-2005, 01:42 PM
Here is a thread which I think will be great for R&M even though this isn't an instrument forum. Can you please keep this open and if you do then please sticky it for a couple of days so we can get the ball rolling. As the name suggests this thread is for discussing theory, improvisation, and compositions (just like Eggo's thread) for any instrument used in rock & metal. I will also link answers in this post so the same questions won't get asked again and again =].

Useful Sites
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/64

Jude
10-29-2005, 02:21 PM
Here is a thread which I think will be great for R&M even though this isn't an instrument forum. Can you please keep this open and if you do then please sticky it for a couple of days so we can get the ball rolling. As the name suggests this thread is for discussing theory, improvisation, and compositions (just like Eggo's thread) for any instrument used in rock & metal. I will also link answers in this post so the same questions won't get asked again and again =].
Good thread. I would rep you, but I can't.

And, of course, whether it will turn into a good thread or not remains to be seen. Hopefully it will.

Shred Danson
10-29-2005, 02:31 PM
hmmm, so what should we do to kick off the discussion?

Joe
10-29-2005, 04:14 PM
Ok how about this:

In the Metallica thread we were talking about this one song and how it sounds good in the "relative minor." What exactly is that?

Deconstruction
10-29-2005, 04:20 PM
Ok how about this:

In the Metallica thread we were talking about this one song and how it sounds good in the "relative minor." What exactly is that?
If the key is C major the relative minor would be A minor. They have the same key signature. A relative minor is always three half steps lower than its relative major. I hope this has helped.

Joe
10-29-2005, 04:25 PM
ok so let's see

e---------------------------------
B---------------------------------
G----7-8-7-----------------5------
D-----------7-8-7-------5---7-----
A--00-----0------0-8-7---7--------
E---------------------------------
there's seek and destroy. so what would the relative minor of that be? just three half down so...

e---------------------------------
B---------------------------------
G---4-5-4-----------------2-------
D----------4-5-4-------2---4------
A-------------------5-4--4--------
E-22-----2-------2----------------

???

Deconstruction
10-29-2005, 04:29 PM
ok so let's see

e---------------------------------
B---------------------------------
G----7-8-7-----------------5------
D-----------7-8-7-------5---7-----
A--00-----0------0-8-7---7--------
E---------------------------------
there's seek and destroy. so what would the relative minor of that be? just three half down so...

e---------------------------------
B---------------------------------
G---4-5-4-----------------2-------
D----------4-5-4-------2---4------
A-------------------5-4--4--------
E-22-----2-------2----------------

???
That might work or they could just mean to improv.

Whale and Wasp
10-29-2005, 04:30 PM
ok so let's see

e---------------------------------
B---------------------------------
G----7-8-7-----------------5------
D-----------7-8-7-------5---7-----
A--00-----0------0-8-7---7--------
E---------------------------------
there's seek and destroy. so what would the relative minor of that be? just three half down so...

e---------------------------------
B---------------------------------
G---4-5-4-----------------2-------
D----------4-5-4-------2---4------
A-------------------5-4--4--------
E-22-----2-------2----------------

???

nooooo, relative minor is the same notes, but it depends how you use them whether they sound major or minor because they can belong to 2 different keys

EXAMPLE:

C major scale
C D E F G A B C

since A is 3 half steps down, the relative minor is A

A minor scale
A B C D E F G A

as you can see, they are the same notes but one of the keys is major and the other minor

Joe
10-29-2005, 04:31 PM
Alright now I'm confused.

i am the robots
10-29-2005, 04:32 PM
I am too, theory =/= my thing, I'm a home trained musician :upset:.

Whale and Wasp
10-29-2005, 04:33 PM
Alright now I'm confused.
what dont you understand?

Joe
10-29-2005, 04:35 PM
I am too, theory =/= my thing, I'm a home trained musician :upset:.

me too. I'm working on basic theory now, like a dom. 7th is the root two halves down, but that's about all I know.

what dont you understand?

all of it. it went from three steps down to the same notes. could you or someone explain what it is and show an example of some sort? that would be great :D

Whale and Wasp
10-29-2005, 04:40 PM
ok i shall try to explain :D.

well i HOPE you know what the C major scale is.

C major: C D E F G A B C


now, three half-steps down from C is A

got it so far?


now, if you take an A minor scale,
A minor: A B C D E F G A B C

OMFG!!!! ITS GOT THE SAME NOTES!! but they are in different order, thus making a minor scale


so since A minor has the same notes as C major, it is the relative minor of C major

and that is simply what relative minor means


and as you can see it applies to all other scales, not just C major and A minor.....all you do to find the relative minor of a major scale is go down 3 half steps

Cyberwaste
10-29-2005, 04:46 PM
bit off topic with the current problem trying to solve but I found this
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/64, which is a 55 page heavy metal ebook. Goes fairly far indepth and showed me a few tricks and some ideas I didn't know well worth a look.

Six Foot Revolver
10-29-2005, 04:49 PM
bit off topic with the current problem trying to solve but I found this
http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/64, which is a 55 page heavy metal ebook. Goes fairly far indepth and showed me a few tricks and some ideas I didn't know well worth a look.
That looks great, I will edit it into the first post.

Doctor Night
10-29-2005, 04:51 PM
I don't really understand the point of this thread. Please, Enlighten me

Bazarov
10-29-2005, 04:54 PM
I don't really understand the point of this thread. Please, Enlighten me
To talk about the musical theory our favorite bands use, and learn about it and such. Like Joe's queation about relative minor, and then tried to use an example with Seek And Destroy.

Doctor Night
10-29-2005, 04:56 PM
Oh right, well this may help:
http://www.chordmine.com/index.aspx

Doctor Night
10-29-2005, 04:57 PM
First Question I'd like to ask :

Led Zeppelin tunings, how did Jimmy Page come accross these and how did he use them.

Biancazzurri
10-29-2005, 06:14 PM
Lower D is soo beautifull! It sounds much more heavier than with lower E string, but the chording sometimes tricky, scales are wider

clown_phobia
10-29-2005, 06:34 PM
Hey does anyone know what kind of scales Dave Gilmour used for soloing?

Deconstruction
10-29-2005, 06:47 PM
Hey does anyone know what kind of scales Dave Gilmour used for soloing?
questions like that are hard to answer as he used many scales.

clown_phobia
10-29-2005, 06:49 PM
questions like that are hard to answer as he used many scales.
well what about Comfortably Numb?

BludgeonySteve
10-29-2005, 06:50 PM
Minor Pentatonic is in there, obviously. A lot of it wasn't completely based off of scales, though. He rarely used a box shape and rarely played runs. There's a few noticeable minor pentatonic runs in comfortably numb, though.

clown_phobia
10-29-2005, 06:57 PM
Minor Pentatonic is in there, obviously. A lot of it wasn't completely based off of scales, though. He rarely used a box shape and rarely played runs. There's a few noticeable minor pentatonic runs in comfortably numb, though.

yeah, I noticed those, thanks

Rounder
10-29-2005, 07:12 PM
Well, solowise as far as I know he pretty much kept to the minor/pentatonic minor scales. Songwriting wise is where he explores more exotic scales/chords. But comfortably numb and other solos like that technically you could probably say he was playing the natural minor. He used pentatonic runs in there as well, but they are basically the same scale minus 2 notes (penta=5) So really you could say he soloed in B minor for Numb.

bminor=............ B C#D E F G A
Bmin pentatonic .B.....D.E...G A

laugh at me if im wrong I havent actually thought out theory in awhile. Havent even played guitar in 3 months :(

Deth
10-29-2005, 07:31 PM
Alright, question time. I have grasped time signitures to a certain extent, but how do I sit down with a guitar and bass and write a riff in something like 11/8 or 19/16 and know what I'm doing?

BludgeonySteve
10-29-2005, 07:41 PM
Hehe, i'd actually like to know that too. Usually I write the guitar without knowing what the time signiture would be :/

italic zero
10-29-2005, 08:14 PM
It's so much easier for me to feel time signatures on drums than guitar.

italic zero
10-29-2005, 08:31 PM
5/4 doesn't have to 4/4 plus a beat, though. Counting it out different ways is what makes it so fun. For example, in Blackfields The Hole In Me the verse is in 5/4, but it has more of a 3/4 'off balance waltz' feel.

Deth
10-29-2005, 08:31 PM
Consider that 5/4 is just 4/4 with an extra beat tacked on; approach it from that perspective. Take a 4/4 riff you've written and try to adjust it to 5/4 until you have a feel for the signature. Then it should become a little easier. That said, I've never actively tried to write in another signature, so take my advice for what it is.
Alright, but I don't see how to do this.

See, my problem is this: I have a 4/4 riff. I change it into appropiate measures for 5/4. Now what? What difference does it make to the feel and flow? How do I know what time sig is most appropiate? Will I ever grasp this idea?

Sorry for sounding stupid :p .

Rounder
10-29-2005, 09:03 PM
there is a really easy way to get into playing in odd time sigs. Counting. Seriously. count 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5. that is 5/8. once you get comfortable counting that, then just play open e muted.

123451234512345
0oooo0oooo0oooo

as your counting playing accent the downbeat. That is a very simple example of playing in odd times. This works for any sig, but easiest for 5/8, 7/8. for more difficult ones like 9/8, 11/8, what you want to do is (math class 101) divide the signatures into 2 parts. (This is how Daney Carey said he does it).

EDIT: here is a riff of mine in 5/8

A-8---8------/8---8-------/-7---7-----7---7----------
D-0-0-0-0-0--/0-0-0-0-0-0-/-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0


this isnt exact but you'll figure it out. its actually twice for each measure. here is an audio clip of that riff: (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=175879)

scroll down to "A New Riff"
You can hear the bass guitar accenting different beats within the measure.
______________________________________________


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

would be

1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4

0 o o o o 0 o o o

with this you can accent any 2 beats and memorize the feel and you'll be playing in 9/8.

11/8

1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5

0 o o o o o 0 o o o o

On Tool's Merkaba on Salival, you can hear the way Daney divides the beat.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 0 0 0 0

Hes going 1&2&3&12345.

This can be applied to any time signature.

just remember

7/8

7 Number of beats in 1 measure
-
8 the type of beat 8=eighth notes, etc.

Polyrhythms im not touching with a 10 foot pole.

Deconstruction
10-29-2005, 09:05 PM
Thanks for clearing that up round3r

Apocalyptic Raids
10-29-2005, 09:48 PM
The Double Harmonic Minor, the diminished, 5th mode Harmonic Minor, Phrygian, The Byzantine, The Snake Charmer, Hirojoshi, Kumoi, Hungarian Minor all see lots of action
could someone show me any of these?

italic zero
10-29-2005, 11:14 PM
Actually, the way I got into counting odd time signatures was through traditional Indian vocalizations known as Bols. I find it much easier than counting numbers. It might not work for you, but heres a link.

http://drumdojo.com/world/india/oddtimes.htm

italic zero
10-29-2005, 11:27 PM
I actually showed it to Amit and he hadn't heard of it.

Amit
10-29-2005, 11:38 PM
Theory in rock or metal?

*snorts derisively*

Dr. Jake Destructo
10-29-2005, 11:47 PM
Pretentious jazz nerd?

*guffaws*

:-*

----------------------------------


So, I've been wanting to incorporate some more middle eastern and/or Egyptian sounding scales into my music, so could someone post some tabs and/or links to pictures of these types of scales, please?

Amit
10-29-2005, 11:51 PM
So, I've been wanting to incorporate some more middle eastern and/or Egyptian sounding scales into my music, so could someone post some tabs and/or links to pictures of these types of scales, please?

Melodic Minor is all you'll ever need.

The scale is so hard to use and harmonize with properly that you'll spend quite a while getting good stuff out of it.

More importantly, you'll have to change any and every chord progressions you use to make it sound anything but awful.

Toaster
10-29-2005, 11:55 PM
http://jguitar.com/scale?root=E&scale=Gypsy&fret=0&labels=none&notes=sharps

Check that one out. It's sort of confusing to read, but once you play it you'll understand.

I didn't know you could play melodic minor scales on guitar.. I was taught a melodic minor scale is harmonic on the way up, but natural minor on the way down.

Britton
10-29-2005, 11:58 PM
there is a really easy way to get into playing in odd time sigs. Counting. Seriously. count 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5. that is 5/8. once you get comfortable counting that, then just play open e muted.

123451234512345
0oooo0oooo0oooo

as your counting playing accent the downbeat. That is a very simple example of playing in odd times. This works for any sig, but easiest for 5/8, 7/8. for more difficult ones like 9/8, 11/8, what you want to do is (math class 101) divide the signatures into 2 parts. (This is how Daney Carey said he does it).

EDIT: here is a riff of mine in 5/8

A-8---8------/8---8-------/-7---7-----7---7----------
D-0-0-0-0-0--/0-0-0-0-0-0-/-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0


this isnt exact but you'll figure it out. its actually twice for each measure. here is an audio clip of that riff: (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=175879)

scroll down to "A New Riff"
You can hear the bass guitar accenting different beats within the measure.
______________________________________________


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

would be

1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4

0 o o o o 0 o o o

with this you can accent any 2 beats and memorize the feel and you'll be playing in 9/8.

11/8

1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5

0 o o o o o 0 o o o o

On Tool's Merkaba on Salival, you can hear the way Daney divides the beat.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 0 0 0 0

Hes going 1&2&3&12345.

This can be applied to any time signature.

just remember

7/8

7 Number of beats in 1 measure
-
8 the type of beat 8=eighth notes, etc.

Polyrhythms im not touching with a 10 foot pole.



I think this is in my top 5 best post seen

DeusExMachina
10-29-2005, 11:59 PM
Eggo probably* knows more theory than me, but I disagree with him on the "eastern scale" bit. I'd say the harmonic minor is a good deal better for getting an egyptian sound.

Too lazy to put up a tab of the scale, but play a natural minor scale with a raised 7th. So, in C, it would be C D Eb F G Ab B C. The augmented second from Ab to B gives it a real egyptian sound.


*most definitely

Amit
10-30-2005, 12:45 AM
Eggo probably* knows more theory than me, but I disagree with him on the "eastern scale" bit. I'd say the harmonic minor is a good deal better for getting an egyptian sound.

Too lazy to put up a tab of the scale, but play a natural minor scale with a raised 7th. So, in C, it would be C D Eb F G Ab B C. The augmented second from Ab to B gives it a real egyptian sound.


*most definitely

Harmonic Minor sounds more Middle Eastern until you actually listen to actual Middle Eastern and Indian music. You'll find it's very rarely used because it's so cliche'd.

DeusExMachina
10-30-2005, 12:51 AM
Ahh. That makes sense. I don't actually listen to much Middle Eastern music, but the harmonic minor definitely does have that cliche sound.

Huber
10-30-2005, 12:54 AM
In my guitar class I have to figure out the melody for this song Georgia Girl. The teacher said it was in E major.

What should I do from there? I'm kinda lost.

DeusExMachina
10-30-2005, 12:57 AM
In my guitar class I have to figure out the melody for this song Georgia Girl. The teacher said it was in E major.

What should I do from there? I'm kinda lost.
I'd say first, make yourself comfortable with the melody of a major (I'm assuming it's in major, I don't recognize the name of the song) scale. Like, learn the intervals well. Then, find the tonic tone of the piece (which will be E), and just try and follow the interval changes in the song. Mess around a bit on your guitar, try and follow the song. You'll get it.

Sorry if that wasn't helpful, I don't really know how to explain working on your ear, since for me it was mostly very haphazard. Hope it helps, though.

Huber
10-30-2005, 01:02 AM
So, just see which notes in the E major scale match the ones in the song?

DeusExMachina
10-30-2005, 01:04 AM
Well, assuming when you say E you mean E major, the melody will probably be entirely in E. More advanced songs will modulate, but if you're not sure where to start in this, chances are the class isn't super advanced, which means it'll probably remain in E.

Another thing you can do is figure out the chords in the song, and then see if the notes in the chord make up the melody. That's pretty common. Like, if there's an E major chord (E G# B), see if the melody consists of those notes.

Huber
10-30-2005, 01:07 AM
I did say E major...

And I know the chords, so I'll try that first. Thanks.

DeusExMachina
10-30-2005, 01:14 AM
Oh. Wow, I feel stupid. I didn't notice the "major," I thought you just said E. Anyways, yeah, try the chords. If you know basic chords beyond the triads, you may want to try 7ths. Whatev. Hope I helped.

MBS
10-30-2005, 01:24 AM
Cool, a theory thread. I'll be frequenting this. :cool:

Ad Absurdum
10-30-2005, 04:04 AM
In my guitar class I have to figure out the melody for this song Georgia Girl. The teacher said it was in E major.

What should I do from there? I'm kinda lost.
Well, if the song is in E Major, all (or most) of the notes will come from that key. To work out the ntoes from the key, there are a few ways you can do it. First (and probably easiest) way is to take your root note (E) and play the scale for the key (major). Decide the name of every note, keeping in mind that there should only be one note to correspond to every letter of the alphabet. If I was to play through the scale and keep track of the notes, I would be playing:
E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E

A harder, but ultimately better way to figure out the key signature is to use the circle of fifths. This is a conveniant little system that allows you to work out how many flats/sharps are in a key signature, and also what they are. As you might know, the key of C Major has no sharps and no flats (no accidentals in other words), but if you take the 5th of C (e.g. the 5th note in the C Major scale), which is G, you get a key signature that has one sharp. Continue to work through by taking the 5th of G to get D which has two sharps, 5th of D which is A and has 3 sharps and then the 5th of A which is E and has 4 sharps.

(This system also works backwards from C to find the number of flats a key has, but instead of taking the fifth of C you take the fourth, which would be F (this works because C is the 5th of F, so effectively you are working backwards on the circle of 6ths). By taking the 4th of each scale you can work out how many flats a scale has, e.g F has one, Bb has two etc.)

Now that you know E Major has 4 sharps, you need to find out what they are. And lucky you, music is arranged in such a way that it is easy to do this. The order of sharps is always the same:
F-C-G-D-A-E-B
(Similarly, the order of flats is B-E-A-D-G-C-F)
What this means is that if your scale has 4 sharps, you take the first four letters from the sharp list and make the notes they describe sharp. Everything else in your scale stays natural. So in the key of E Major, F, C, G and D are all sharp, whilst everything else is natural. Thus, an E Major scale would be written as:
E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E

Whilst the first method is alot quicker and easier to understand, the second method is a better way to do things in my opinion. You can do it easily without your guitar and it also helps you to understand the relationships between key signatures better. Also, if you are struggling to remember the order of sharps/flats, just remember "father charles goes down and ends battle" and "battle ends and down goes charles' father".

Now, that you know the notes, you need to listen to the song and be thinking about the notes of your E Major scale whilst you do so. On your first listen, try to do it without your guitar and just get a feel for the intervals between the notes and also try and find which note feels like 'home' (this will be the tonic note, in this case E). Once you have got a feel for the melody and you know roughly what is going on, try and play the melody back without listening to the music. Chances are you won't get it right, but keep playing about with it until you think you are more or less right. This will help develop your intervallic recognisation rather than playing along to the song when you would only be helping your ability to match notes. Also, you know that you've got the bones of the melody right this way - sometimes when you just play along you can end up being way off but the interval you are playing 'agrees' with the actual note and you might not notice you are out. Finally, play your melody along to the song and rectify any mistakes you have made, keep doing this until you are sure you've got the melody right.

mr black
10-30-2005, 06:02 AM
Theory aye... i like playing E minor, although i sometimes struggle with the fingering...

Aberrationbass
10-30-2005, 08:23 AM
Phyrigian mode and lots of it!

Spiritofmosa
10-30-2005, 09:04 AM
damn i dont understand a thing

Toaster
10-30-2005, 09:11 AM
If you really want to have a good understanding of music theory.. take piano lessons. It's far easier to understand tones, scales and key signatures, mostly because notes don't recur anywhere on the keyboard, whereas they do several times on a guitar fretboard. Just make sure that your piano teacher uses Conservatory books and methods.

Mazeppa
10-30-2005, 09:12 AM
If you really want to have a good understanding of music theory.. take piano lessons. It's far easier to understand tones, scales and key signatures, mostly because notes don't recur anywhere on the keyboard, whereas they do several times on a guitar fretboard. Just make sure that your piano teacher uses Conservatory books and methods.
I'm taking piano lessons :cool:
Also we recently looked at the modes at school which was interesting.

Ad Absurdum
10-30-2005, 09:17 AM
If you really want to have a good understanding of music theory.. take piano lessons. It's far easier to understand tones, scales and key signatures, mostly because notes don't recur anywhere on the keyboard, whereas they do several times on a guitar fretboard. Just make sure that your piano teacher uses Conservatory books and methods.
That's good advice, piano definately gives you a good instrumental basis and a sound knowledge of music. Unfortunately, pianos are expensive and take up alot of room :(

Toaster
10-30-2005, 09:35 AM
That's good advice, piano definately gives you a good instrumental basis and a sound knowledge of music. Unfortunately, pianos are expensive and take up alot of room :(

Get an electric, you get get a fairly decent electric organ with 500 sounds for around 300$. MAKE SURE THE KEYS ARE WEIGHTED, meaning the harder you push, the louder the volume, and vice versa.

Ad Absurdum
10-30-2005, 09:55 AM
Get an electric, you get get a fairly decent electric organ with 500 sounds for around 300$. MAKE SURE THE KEYS ARE WEIGHTED, meaning the harder you push, the louder the volume, and vice versa.
Yeah, that's what my friend's got. Unfortunately I don't have the room/money for one of them either.

mono12
10-30-2005, 10:14 AM
here's a rather irrelevant topic - anyone noticed how Richie Blackmore (Deep Purple) plays in G minor most of the time? No idea why. He might think it sounds good, but you would think they all sound the same. But then apparently D minor is the saddest key, sadder then all the other minors.

P.S good thread i'm all for stickying

Toaster
10-30-2005, 10:39 AM
here's a rather irrelevant topic - anyone noticed how Richie Blackmore (Deep Purple) plays in G minor most of the time? No idea why. He might think it sounds good, but you would think they all sound the same. But then apparently D minor is the saddest key, sadder then all the other minors.

P.S good thread i'm all for stickying

D minor is the saddest key? Hmm. I'm not sure I could be convinced of that. I think all minor keys are equally sad, I guess.

Here's a question: Why do we think of the minor key as being "sad", and the major key as being "happy"? Are we just used to hearing sad music put to sad lyrics? It's weird to think about- what if the enigmatic scale (or something) was the most often used scale? Would we think of the major and minor scales as being odd-sounding?

Ad Absurdum
10-30-2005, 10:52 AM
D minor is the saddest key? Hmm. I'm not sure I could be convinced of that. I think all minor keys are equally sad, I guess.
It's from This Is Spinal Tap, Nigel Tufnel says that D Minor is the saddest of all keys. There's no basis to this statement, it's just a line from a film.

Here's a question: Why do we think of the minor key as being "sad", and the major key as being "happy"? Are we just used to hearing sad music put to sad lyrics? It's weird to think about- what if the enigmatic scale (or something) was the most often used scale? Would we think of the major and minor scales as being odd-sounding?
I don't know really. There's a marked difference between the sound of the different keys, why we describe these scales as invoking an emotion called happiness/sadness is beyond me. I think that you are right about your second point, we only think that major keys and minor keys sound normal because we are accustomed to hearing them all the time as they have formed the basis for Western music since the renaissance. Maybe if Eggo comes back in he'll be able to talk about Eastern music and what they are accustomed to, he knows his shit.

Joe
10-30-2005, 10:57 AM
ok i shall try to explain :D.

well i HOPE you know what the C major scale is.

C major: C D E F G A B C


now, three half-steps down from C is A

got it so far?


now, if you take an A minor scale,
A minor: A B C D E F G A B C

OMFG!!!! ITS GOT THE SAME NOTES!! but they are in different order, thus making a minor scale


so since A minor has the same notes as C major, it is the relative minor of C major

and that is simply what relative minor means


and as you can see it applies to all other scales, not just C major and A minor.....all you do to find the relative minor of a major scale is go down 3 half steps

Ah, ok. Yes, that's very simple. Thanks :D

Here's a question: Why do we think of the minor key as being "sad", and the major key as being "happy"? Are we just used to hearing sad music put to sad lyrics? It's weird to think about- what if the enigmatic scale (or something) was the most often used scale? Would we think of the major and minor scales as being odd-sounding?

Well it usually just has a sadder sound. I know that when you play a minor chord it has a lot more melancholy sound than a major chord. There's no real reason to it, just the fact that it sounds sadder. I think it depends on the style of music if something sounds weird. When you play rock chords compared to jazz chords they sound odd. It's just a matter of style and how you put the words to it

eighty d
10-30-2005, 11:22 AM
Here's a question: Why do we think of the minor key as being "sad", and the major key as being "happy"? Are we just used to hearing sad music put to sad lyrics? It's weird to think about- what if the enigmatic scale (or something) was the most often used scale? Would we think of the major and minor scales as being odd-sounding?

well on a basic level it's about dissonance.

think about intervals. a major third is four half steps. lower it a half step to get a minor third. if you play a major third and then a minor third, it should be obvious that the minor third is more dissonant (which is not the case for all intervals). it's that dissonance that we've come to associate with sounding sad.

mono12
10-30-2005, 11:41 AM
i suppose its the order that you play them not the notes, just like with keys and notes. It's all about the intevals, not the notes.

It's from This Is Spinal Tap, Nigel Tufnel says that D Minor is the saddest of all keys. There's no basis to this statement, it's just a line from a film.

yes but having said that if you play the riff from "Layla" by "Derek and the Dominoes" in another key other than D minor it doesn't sound as sad. or maybye that's just me.

Toaster
10-30-2005, 11:46 AM
well on a basic level it's about dissonance.

think about intervals. a major third is four half steps. lower it a half step to get a minor third. if you play a major third and then a minor third, it should be obvious that the minor third is more dissonant (which is not the case for all intervals). it's that dissonance that we've come to associate with sounding sad.

But a minor second is technically the most dissonant interval, and it doesn't really sound sad, just ugly.

burntgorilla
10-30-2005, 12:00 PM
Just for a reminder, which modes are the minor scales? Aeolian is natural minor, and dorian is the minor scale that's only got a flat 3rd and 7th, and I think mixolydian is the one with only a flat 7th. I know one's the harmonic and the other's the melodic, but I always get them mixed up. And I don't quite understand how ascending, it's one scale, but descending, it's another.

Secondly, how can you tell the key of a piece? I know key signatures and all, I think what I'm talking about is modulation, but I'm not sure about the definition of that. Say I have a chord progression that goes EM7 F#7 BM7. That, unless I've mucked up is a I IV V in B. I've seen that, but the key signature says C major. If I wanted to make up a bassline to that, would I play in the key of C or B? And how would I work it out at a decent speed. I only noticed it by staring at it for a while, I can sometimes go by looking at the quality of the chord, like m7, M7 etc, but that only works for a few progressions I'm happy with, like II V I, and I know that there's far more than that. Is it just a case of practising at working out the keys?

eighty d
10-30-2005, 12:02 PM
But a minor second is technically the most dissonant interval, and it doesn't really sound sad, just ugly.

true, a minor second isn't "sad." but if you think of any song that uses a minor second (pretty much a phrygian based song) it tends to have a sound to it that is at least dark, if not exactly sad. it could be that we're just less accustomed to hearing a minor second played harmonically.

I know one's the harmonic and the other's the melodic, but I always get them mixed up. And I don't quite understand how ascending, it's one scale, but descending, it's another.

the harmonic and melodic minor scales are not modes. modes do not alter any pitches.

to get the harmonic minor scale, simply raise the seventh degree of the natural minor scale one half step. this gives you the leading tone like in a major scale, which creates a greater pull back to the tonic.

the problem with harmonic minor is that raising the seventh then creates a step and a half gap between six and seven. melodic minor takes care of this by also raising the sixth degree of scale a half step. with this you've got the strong pull from seven to tonic, but you also have no huge gaps between intervals.

another thing about the melodic minor scale is that it can take on a major tone at times. with both the sixth and seventh degrees of scale raised, it has a nebulous quality that a good composer will use to vary the mood throughout a piece.

the tricky part of the melodic minor scale is that you only raise those pitches when playing the scale ascending. descending it reverts back to the natural minor form. why? to be honest i don't really know.

GenuineImitation
10-30-2005, 12:19 PM
I have been trying to learn theory for the past month. Is there a book that I could pick up at guitar center that is good and easy to understand.

Also, toaster135 mentioned enigmatic scale. Can someone show me an example of this scale? What are a few songs that contain this scale?

Ad Absurdum
10-30-2005, 12:32 PM
Just for a reminder, which modes are the minor scales? Here are the modes and their corresponding chord:
Ionian - Major 7th
Dorian - Major 7th
Phrygian - Minor 7th
Lydian - Major 7th
Mixolydian - Dominant 7th
Aeolian - Minor 7th
Locrian - Minor 7th b5h

Secondly, how can you tell the key of a piece? I know key signatures and all, I think what I'm talking about is modulation, but I'm not sure about the definition of that. Say I have a chord progression that goes EM7 F#7 BM7. That, unless I've mucked up is a I IV V in B. I've seen that, but the key signature says C major. If I wanted to make up a bassline to that, would I play in the key of C or B? And how would I work it out at a decent speed. I only noticed it by staring at it for a while, I can sometimes go by looking at the quality of the chord, like m7, M7 etc, but that only works for a few progressions I'm happy with, like II V I, and I know that there's far more than that. Is it just a case of practising at working out the keys? That is a IV-V-I (prefect cadence) in B. A quick way to figure it out is to look at the chords I posted above; and try and work out from there. The dominant is usually the give-away chord, as there is only one in each key - so if you find that the dominant is F# just work out what F# is the fifth of (B).

Another way is to pick apart the chord and see what notes are sharp and what notes are flat. Look at this (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10215257&postcount=56) post for a guide on how to work out the key from the number of sharps/flats (I think you said you already knew this, but for anyone else having a similar problem it might help).

Also, toaster135 mentioned enigmatic scale. Can someone show me an example of this scale? What are a few songs that contain this scale? Here (http://home.swipnet.se/freakguitar/enigmatic.html) is a tab of the scale. It's on the website (http://home.swipnet.se/freakguitar/) of Matthias IA Eklundh of Freak Kitchen - he's a very good guitarist and his site has a bunch of intresting scales to play about with. I don't know any songs off the top of my head that use this song.

the tricky part of the melodic minor scale is that you only raise those pitches when playing the scale ascending. descending it reverts back to the natural minor form. why? to be honest i don't really know. Good post man. This part I quoted has always been a mystery to me too :(

To me, the minor second interval used in melodically in the right context can have a sad sound. I don't think it makes sense to break apart every interval and analyze them seperatly though, it's the overall mood of the piece that makes it sad, not using a minor third instead of a major third at some points.

GenuineImitation
10-30-2005, 12:35 PM
Here (http://home.swipnet.se/freakguitar/enigmatic.html) is a tab of the scale. It's on the website (http://home.swipnet.se/freakguitar/) of Matthias IA Eklundh of Freak Kitchen - he's a very good guitarist and his site has a bunch of intresting scales to play about with. I don't know any songs off the top of my head that use this song.





Thanks for the links.

Toaster
10-30-2005, 01:00 PM
I have been trying to learn theory for the past month. Is there a book that I could pick up at guitar center that is good and easy to understand.

Also, toaster135 mentioned enigmatic scale. Can someone show me an example of this scale? What are a few songs that contain this scale?

The only song I know that uses the Enigmatic scale is Joe Satriani's "The Enigmatic". It's more of a gimmick song to show he knows his scales, but he uses the scale throughout most of the song, so it's good to listen to if you want to hear the tonality.

Here it is: http://s64.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2QNJ6EK8ERX5M3QWVD7DBMAWKM

Pretty strange but worth a listen.

Jude
10-30-2005, 01:23 PM
But then apparently D minor is the saddest key, sadder then all the other minors.

Lick my love pump :lol:

GenuineImitation
10-30-2005, 01:31 PM
The only song I know that uses the Enigmatic scale is Joe Satriani's "The Enigmatic". It's more of a gimmick song to show he knows his scales, but he uses the scale throughout most of the song, so it's good to listen to if you want to hear the tonality.

Here it is: http://s64.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2QNJ6EK8ERX5M3QWVD7DBMAWKM

Pretty strange but worth a listen.


Thanks, i'll definetly check it out.

DeusExMachina
10-30-2005, 02:28 PM
Just for a reminder, which modes are the minor scales? Aeolian is natural minor, and dorian is the minor scale that's only got a flat 3rd and 7th, and I think mixolydian is the one with only a flat 7th. I know one's the harmonic and the other's the melodic, but I always get them mixed up. And I don't quite understand how ascending, it's one scale, but descending, it's another.
The harmonic and melodic minors aren't modes. They're just variations of the minor. Here's how it works.

Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Aeolian is minor. Harmonic minor is the Aeolian, but with a raised 7th. Melodic minor, when ascending is the minor with a raised 6th and a raised 7th. When descending, it's just a natural minor. So...

Harmonic minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Melodic minor (ascending): 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Melodic minor (descending): b7 b6 5 4 b3 2 1

Deth
10-30-2005, 07:31 PM
Thanks to Splat Out Plath and R0ud3r. Those two posts really helped me out.

eighty d
10-30-2005, 10:58 PM
Good post man. This part I quoted has always been a mystery to me too :(

To me, the minor second interval used in melodically in the right context can have a sad sound. I don't think it makes sense to break apart every interval and analyze them seperatly though, it's the overall mood of the piece that makes it sad, not using a minor third instead of a major third at some points.

yah, the only reason i've ever been able to come up with is that when descending you're not going from seven to one. so you don't need that pull to tonic. it just seems unnecissary to change a scale based on whether you're ascending or descending.

and i agree with you on the second part. my post was just an attempt to break it down to an extremely basic level.

and since you mentioned how to figure out the key from a key signature (and vice versa) i'll post my little cheat method of doing it.

to use this method, you have to know the order of the sharps and flats. for flats B E A D G C F, and for sharps F C G D A E B. i don't have any trick to remember those, just memorize them.

first the flat key signatures. remember with these that all but one have flat in the name. the only one that doesn't is F, and F is one flat. for the rest of them, just look at the second to last flat in the signature and you have your major key. for instance, in a key signature with four flats you have Bb Eb Ab Db. the second to last is Ab, and there's your key.

now the sharps. just one of these has a sharp in the name: C#. with C# you have seven sharps; everything's sharp. for the rest, just look a half step up from the last sharp. example, three sharps. F# C# G#. half step up from G# is A, so your key is A major.

manuscriptreplica
10-31-2005, 12:13 AM
It's from This Is Spinal Tap, Nigel Tufnel says that D Minor is the saddest of all keys. There's no basis to this statement, it's just a line from a film..

Composers like Bach and Beethoven used to constantly write in Db or C# because it was considered the saddest, most emotion-evoking key.

Cain
10-31-2005, 12:14 AM
Fantastic thread, Jake. I'll be posting in this often. :)

manuscriptreplica
10-31-2005, 12:21 AM
Enigmatic scale: 1 b2 3 #4 #5 #6 7

So in C: C Db E F# G# A# B C

Deth
10-31-2005, 09:56 AM
OK, final question (I think).

How do I know if the beat is going to the quarter note, eighth note or sixteenth note. So whether it's x/4, x/8 or x/16 time?

Magicaltroll
10-31-2005, 10:16 AM
Can anyone explain to me, or give me a site to go to, that explains what all this time signature stuff is?

I want to put some weird time sigs. in my songs, but I have no clue how to count them.

Ad Absurdum
10-31-2005, 10:24 AM
and since you mentioned how to figure out the key from a key signature (and vice versa) i'll post my little cheat method of doing it.

to use this method, you have to know the order of the sharps and flats. for flats B E A D G C F, and for sharps F C G D A E B. i don't have any trick to remember those, just memorize them.

first the flat key signatures. remember with these that all but one have flat in the name. the only one that doesn't is F, and F is one flat. for the rest of them, just look at the second to last flat in the signature and you have your major key. for instance, in a key signature with four flats you have Bb Eb Ab Db. the second to last is Ab, and there's your key.

now the sharps. just one of these has a sharp in the name: C#. with C# you have seven sharps; everything's sharp. for the rest, just look a half step up from the last sharp. example, three sharps. F# C# G#. half step up from G# is A, so your key is A major. That's a nice little method there; I'd noticed the sharp one before but not the flat one - thanks :)

Composers like Bach and Beethoven used to constantly write in Db or C# because it was considered the saddest, most emotion-evoking key. Thanks for mentioning that, I didn't know that. But it would be an idea to bear in mind that the organ JS Bach played in Hamburg was tuned to A=480Hz, which is closer to what we would think is Bb than Db. Up until the 1950s, there was no standard pitch of A, so I'm pretty sure Beethoven wouldn't have played to the current standard of A=440Hz (thus his Db would probably sound different to Bach's aswell.)

OK, final question (I think).

How do I know if the beat is going to the quarter note, eighth note or sixteenth note. So whether it's x/4, x/8 or x/16 time? I don't quite understand what you are trying to ask yet, but I'll go with what I think it is. When you are counting in odd time signatures, count with the denominator they have. For example, if the tempo marking of the piece is crotchet=60bpm, and the time signature changes to 7/8 at one point, you would count 7 8th notes here, with 2 8th notes as the value of one crotchet (so an 8th note is worth 120bpm). Similarly, a 16th note would have a value of 240bpm etc. So basically, count the denominator, and you can derive the value of the denominator from the tempo marker with a little bit of maths.

So to count that 7/8 you know it would be 7 notes each worth a value of 120bpm, and accented in whatever way the music says fir (e.g. 1-2-1-2-1-2-3)

That's the way I do things anyway, hope it ties in with the way you've learned things.

DeusExMachina
10-31-2005, 11:42 AM
OK, final question (I think).

How do I know if the beat is going to the quarter note, eighth note or sixteenth note. So whether it's x/4, x/8 or x/16 time?
Not positive I'm understanding your question. But, if you're asking how you can tell if a song is in 3/4 as opposed to 3/8, the answer is you usually can't. One of them will tend to make more sense in terms of reasonable time signature, or something like that. But, it's difficult. Same with 2/2 vs. 4/4. 2/2 tends to sound slower, but there's no mathematical difference between the two.

Ad Absurdum
10-31-2005, 12:15 PM
Can anyone explain to me, or give me a site to go to, that explains what all this time signature stuff is?

I want to put some weird time sigs. in my songs, but I have no clue how to count them.
Basically, every time signature* has a denominator that is a power of 2. This is what you will be counting your bar in, e.g. if the denominator is 4 you will be counting quater notes, 8 will be 8th notes etc. The number on the top refers to how many of these there is.

So a bar of 7/8 has 7 8th notes. Now you don't just count this like 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 next bar, you need to break it up into little groups that are easier to handly. Now if you think of it, there are plenty of ways you could break up a bar of 7/8, here's a couple of examples:
1-2-1-2-1-2-3
1-2-3-1-2-1-2
Each bar has a different feel but both are 7/8

Now what you need to do is accent the 1's (in bold to highlight this). Think of it like a drummer, he could be playing the 8th notes on his high-hat but to accent the 1's he would hit his snare or something. The bits you accent are the bits people will headband to, so keep in mind that it's very important. That's what you've got to do keep in mind you are writing in these riffs (you're a guitarist if I remember rightly).

The 16th note denominators are harder, but operate on the same theory.

*The vast vast vast majority of time signatures. Some people have started using numbers like 3 and 5 as their denominators, but it's not a system that is widely used (and it's not one I think we should discuss here, it hijacks the thread topic).

Not positive I'm understanding your question. But, if you're asking how you can tell if a song is in 3/4 as opposed to 3/8, the answer is you usually can't. One of them will tend to make more sense in terms of reasonable time signature, or something like that. But, it's difficult. Same with 2/2 vs. 4/4. 2/2 tends to sound slower, but there's no mathematical difference between the two.
It's difficult to tell the time between 3/4 and 3/8, but it's possible. Basically, a bar of 3/4 will have 3 beats of quarter notes that are felt in the usual way (i.e. 1-e-and-a, normal 16th notes; or maybe just 1-and, normal 8th notes) - but a bar of 3/8 will will like one pulse with another two notes off the beat (i.e. 1-and-a) and then the bar will change. You won't come across 3/8 that often, maybe in some prog stuff it will be found.

4/4 and 2/2, well that's even harder. Both are simple time bars (i.e. not compound time, where the beat is divided into 3 instead of 2, like in 3/8). A bar of 2/2 will be accented with 2 minims (a note with a value of two crotchets), instead of 4 crotchets like in 4/4.

Magicaltroll
10-31-2005, 12:22 PM
Basically, every time signature* has a denominator that is a power of 2. This is what you will be counting your bar in, e.g. if the denominator is 4 you will be counting quater notes, 8 will be 8th notes etc. The number on the top refers to how many of these there is.

So a bar of 7/8 has 7 8th notes. Now you don't just count this like 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 next bar, you need to break it up into little groups that are easier to handly. Now if you think of it, there are plenty of ways you could break up a bar of 7/8, here's a couple of examples:
1-2-1-2-1-2-3
1-2-3-1-2-1-2
Each bar has a different feel but both are 7/8

Now what you need to do is accent the 1's (in bold to highlight this). Think of it like a drummer, he could be playing the 8th notes on his high-hat but to accent the 1's he would hit his snare or something. The bits you accent are the bits people will headband to, so keep in mind that it's very important. That's what you've got to do keep in mind you are writing in these riffs (you're a guitarist if I remember rightly).

The 16th note denominators are harder, but operate on the same theory.

*The vast vast vast majority of time signatures. Some people have started using numbers like 3 and 5 as their denominators, but it's not a system that is widely used (and it's not one I think we should discuss here, it hijacks the thread topic).
Thank you, that helped alot.

eighty d
10-31-2005, 03:24 PM
It's difficult to tell the time between 3/4 and 3/8, but it's possible. Basically, a bar of 3/4 will have 3 beats of quarter notes that are felt in the usual way (i.e. 1-e-and-a, normal 16th notes; or maybe just 1-and, normal 8th notes) - but a bar of 3/8 will will like one pulse with another two notes off the beat (i.e. 1-and-a) and then the bar will change.

i'm glad you brought this up. i remember seeing earlier in the thread someone talking about time signatures and how 9/8 would be a more complicated one (or something along those lines).

when dealing with x/8 time signatures, many times they will simply be a more common meter but with a triplet feel. for example, in 6/8 you don't count

1 2 3 4 5 6

but rather

1 2 3 4 5 6

or two pulses per measure. it will sound a lot like a song in 2/4 with a triplet feel.

so likewise, 3/8 is one pulse per measure, 9/8 is three, and 12/8 is four. 3/8 isn't seen a whole lot (other than maybe a measure thrown in to tie two phrases together) but 6/8 9/8 and 12/8 are all fairly common and you should be able to recognize them.

Deth
10-31-2005, 09:10 PM
Not positive I'm understanding your question. But, if you're asking how you can tell if a song is in 3/4 as opposed to 3/8, the answer is you usually can't. One of them will tend to make more sense in terms of reasonable time signature, or something like that. But, it's difficult. Same with 2/2 vs. 4/4. 2/2 tends to sound slower, but there's no mathematical difference between the two.
Yeah, that's what I meant.

Crappy statement of that question is due to me being tired this morning.

Cain
10-31-2005, 09:27 PM
Yeah, that's what I meant.

Crappy statement of that question is due to me being tired this morning.

Well, there's usually an underlying pulse that probably helps to counting out beats with regard to quarter notes, eighth notes, and sixteenth notes. For instance, quarter note time signatures will usually have extended riff patterns but have a pulse that's very "straight." 3/4 is only different from 4/4 because it takes out one of the quarter notes in the measure: the metronome pulse that you feel would still be even. 6/4, similarly, can be considered a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 2/4 or vice-versa (very basic counting signatures), and is a time signature for matters of notational expediency. When the signature is in eighth notes, there will usually be a triplet feel since the common signatures are usually in denominations of three (3/8, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8) and so will differ from the quarter note beats in this way: you'll hear a pulse grouped in threes rather than twos or fours. 7/8 time is a little trickier, but in this case it's so close to a mathematical equivalent of 4/4 (8/8) that it's usually best to hear it as "a hair shy of 4/4." 16th note pulses tend to be pretty fast in tempo, since 16th notes are small denominations, and any time signature containing them as the "denominator" is likely to focus on a steady pulse of them and not fall into one of the lower denominations (12/16 and the like are basically equivalent to 6/8: 17/16 however is a common 16th note pulse that falls under none of the lower rhythmic groupings).

That's a layman's way of looking at it. But if you want to be able to tell right away, just by ear, my suggestion would be picking up some notation and playing the rhythms based on the slashes, paying particular attention to the time signature marking: standard notation is fantastic for learning how to understand and unravel odd meter.

Deth
10-31-2005, 09:30 PM
Alright thanks a lot Cain. I'm learning, albeit slowly.

italic zero
10-31-2005, 09:31 PM
3/4 is only different from 4/4 because it takes out one of the quarter notes in the measure: the metronome pulse that you feel would still be even.
But in 4/4 the third beat would be accented, which I don't believe is true with 3/4, no?

Cain
10-31-2005, 09:31 PM
Alright thanks a lot Cain. I'm learning, albeit slowly.

Ad Absurdum is a lot better with the technical terminology than I am, but this is my basic description of the ways I "feel" time signatures, which ultimately is more important than just being able to count them anyway.

Cain
10-31-2005, 09:33 PM
But in 4/4 the third beat would be accented, which I don't believe is true with 3/4, no?

The two and the four are usually the ones with snare hits, which serve to provide accents, so I'm not sure what you're saying. 3/4's beats aren't accented the same way as 4/4, certainly, but besides, I'm talking in terms of mathematics, and the basic pulse doesn't really change: it's more or less "even" sounding except the figure "starts over" sooner. At least to me.

For instance: Joe Satriani's song "Always with Me, Always with You" is in 3/4 time. The drumbeat being played, however, only hits the "one" of each measure, so it sounds almost like a real slow 4/4. This is what I mean when the basic pulse is more or less even except in really whacked out 4/4 times like 7/4, which is a lot different.

Deth
10-31-2005, 09:34 PM
I think your description was the best for my needs actually, though I just think that's because I can't write a question to save my life.

italic zero
10-31-2005, 09:51 PM
The two and the four are usually the ones with snare hits, which serve to provide accents, so I'm not sure what you're saying. 3/4's beats aren't accented the same way as 4/4, certainly, but besides, I'm talking in terms of mathematics, and the basic pulse doesn't really change: it's more or less "even" sounding except the figure "starts over" sooner. At least to me.

In rock music, yes. But the natural accents of a 4/4 rhythm fall on 1 and 3. Your explanation of /4 v. /8 makes sense to me, though.

Cain
10-31-2005, 09:59 PM
In rock music, yes. But the natural accents of a 4/4 rhythm fall on 1 and 3. Your explanation of /4 v. /8 makes sense to me, though.

Ah, okay, anyway, I'm a layman when it comes to technical stuff anyway. Sorry.

Ad Absurdum
11-01-2005, 03:14 PM
Ad Absurdum is a lot better with the technical terminology than I am, but this is my basic description of the ways I "feel" time signatures, which ultimately is more important than just being able to count them anyway.
You gave a great descpription there man, you're totally right that feeling them is the most important thing of all.

But in 4/4 the third beat would be accented, which I don't believe is true with 3/4, no?
In 4/4 the main accent usually falls on 1 and 3, and in 3/4 it's usually just the 1st beat that's accented. I always remember one time in music class I had a very long debate with my teacher whether a piece was in 3/4 or 6/8, because the accent on the first beat was so strong and on the next 2 was so weak. She was adamant that it was 3/4 while I thought it was just a slow 6/8, but this is just anecdotal - just remember in a bar of 3/4 all the beats are accented but the first one should be obvious in it's function for defining the start of a new bar.

If the third beat was accented in 3/4 it would sound kind of clumsy having two accented beats in a row (i.e. last beat of previous bar then first beat of next bar). Don't get too hung up on the accents though, in time signatures with a denominator of four the only really important accent is the first one.

Chimaera One
11-01-2005, 03:35 PM
[QUOTE=toaster135]D minor is the saddest key? Hmm. I'm not sure I could be convinced of that. I think all minor keys are equally sad, I guess.[QUOTE]

Obviously someone's never tried to gain Perfect Pitch from being tone deaf. :rolleyes:

Their is some basis to that comment. All keys have their own...flavour? I'm at a loss for words regarding how to describe it. But yeah, if you read about classical composers, you'll hear them talk about how they prefer some keys, due to the "feel" of it. I believe Beethoven (or someone from his era), preferred Bb because it was a particularly "dark" key.

I should point out that I had to check this out on a piano to make *any* notation of difference what-so-ever. Guitar is a *really* difficult instrument to establish any difference in tonality, in my opinion :P.

Ad Absurdum
11-01-2005, 04:49 PM
Obviously someone's never tried to gain Perfect Pitch from being tone deaf. :rolleyes:

Their is some basis to that comment. All keys have their own...flavour? I'm at a loss for words regarding how to describe it. But yeah, if you read about classical composers, you'll hear them talk about how they prefer some keys, due to the "feel" of it. I believe Beethoven (or someone from his era), preferred Bb because it was a particularly "dark" key.

I should point out that I had to check this out on a piano to make *any* notation of difference what-so-ever. Guitar is a *really* difficult instrument to establish any difference in tonality, in my opinion :P. Yeah, but I thought it was like relating the frequency of a sound to a frequency of light (i.e. a pitch to a colour). Personally I don't think certain colours are sadder than others, just the way colours are used. I have the same views on music, but then again I use relative pitch instead of perfect so I guess it's like someone with poor vision talking about colours.

Toaster
11-01-2005, 05:00 PM
[QUOTE=toaster135]D minor is the saddest key? Hmm. I'm not sure I could be convinced of that. I think all minor keys are equally sad, I guess.[QUOTE]

Obviously someone's never tried to gain Perfect Pitch from being tone deaf. :rolleyes:

Their is some basis to that comment. All keys have their own...flavour? I'm at a loss for words regarding how to describe it. But yeah, if you read about classical composers, you'll hear them talk about how they prefer some keys, due to the "feel" of it. I believe Beethoven (or someone from his era), preferred Bb because it was a particularly "dark" key.

I should point out that I had to check this out on a piano to make *any* notation of difference what-so-ever. Guitar is a *really* difficult instrument to establish any difference in tonality, in my opinion :P.

Hey, you're the first I've heard relate perfect pitch to the "sadness" of a key. That's a great explaination, I never thought of it that way.

Does perfect pitch always mean you think of notes as "flavours" or "colours"? Because my piano teacher says she thinks I have perfect pitch, but I don't think of notes in this way at all..

Did you call me tone deaf? That's very insulting. :angry:

lightningmetal666
11-01-2005, 05:04 PM
D minor is the saddest key? Hmm. I'm not sure I could be convinced of that. I think all minor keys are equally sad, I guess.

Obviously someone's never tried to gain Perfect Pitch from being tone deaf. :rolleyes:

Their is some basis to that comment. All keys have their own...flavour? I'm at a loss for words regarding how to describe it. But yeah, if you read about classical composers, you'll hear them talk about how they prefer some keys, due to the "feel" of it. I believe Beethoven (or someone from his era), preferred Bb because it was a particularly "dark" key.

I should point out that I had to check this out on a piano to make *any* notation of difference what-so-ever. Guitar is a *really* difficult instrument to establish any difference in tonality, in my opinion :P.


I agree, I found Cm to be even sadder and darker. I don't think toaster is tone deaf though. That seems harsh to me.

Stormrider
11-01-2005, 05:06 PM
I'm pretty low in theory knowledge so forgive me if this is stupid or unclear...But when somone sais for example"play a low E with an added fifth" (i don't know if this makes any sense but i hope you get the idea of what i mean) does it mean you add the fifth note of the scale to the chord ?

Toaster
11-01-2005, 05:11 PM
I'm pretty low in theory knowledge so forgive me if this is stupid or unclear...But when somone sais for example"play a low E with an added fifth" (i don't know if this makes any sense but i hope you get the idea of what i mean) does it mean you add the fifth note of the scale to the chord ?

Yes, they are most likely asking you to play an E power chord.

lightningmetal666
11-01-2005, 05:13 PM
I'm pretty low in theory knowledge so forgive me if this is stupid or unclear...But when somone sais for example"play a low E with an added fifth" (i don't know if this makes any sense but i hope you get the idea of what i mean) does it mean you add the fifth note of the scale to the chord ?

Absolutely. In this particular case that would be a "B"

This type of chord would be a fifth chord which is known in rock as a Power Chord.

POLISH SAUSAGE
11-01-2005, 05:21 PM
A m3+M3 is a minor triad. How does this rule apply with 7 chords for minor and major? For example, what should the intervak be between the 5th and 7th of the chord for a major chord and a minor chord.

Stormrider
11-01-2005, 05:23 PM
Absolutely. In this particular case that would be a "B"

This type of chord would be a fifth chord which is known in rock as a Power Chord.


So for example when it sais play a F5...thats:
----3---
----3---
-----1--

But if the five next to the F means the fifth note that means its the 3 on the d-string...but isnt that an octave ? The b isnt the E's octave obviously...

Tell me if ive got this all wrong.

Toaster
11-01-2005, 05:27 PM
A m3+M3 is a minor triad. How does this rule apply with 7 chords for minor and major? For example, what should the intervak be between the 5th and 7th of the chord for a major chord and a minor chord.

For a minor 7th, the intervals are m3, M3, m3.

For a Major 7th, the intervals are M3, m3, M3.

Basically, for a 7th chord, if it's minor, the interval between the 5th and 7th is m3, or 3 semitones. If it's Major, the interval is a M3, or 4 semitones.

POLISH SAUSAGE
11-01-2005, 05:27 PM
For a minor 7th, the intervals are m3, M3, m3.

For a Major 7th, the intervals are M3, m3, M3.

Basically, for a 7th chord, if it's minor, the interval between the 5th and 7th is m3, or 3 semitones. If it's Major, the interval is a M3, or 4 semitones.

thank you

Toaster
11-01-2005, 05:30 PM
So for example when it sais play a F5...thats:
----3---
----3---
-----1--

But if the five next to the F means the fifth note that means its the 3 on the d-string...but isnt that an octave ? The b isnt the E's octave obviously...

Tell me if ive got this all wrong.

The fifth note of the F major and minor scale is C. Therefore, any F5 chord is always that shape right there.

The F major scale is F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F. The fifth note is C, the third fret on the A string. So "F5" means F, and in the key of F, the fifth note of the scale.

I apologize if this confuses you, ask again if you don't understand.

POLISH SAUSAGE
11-01-2005, 05:30 PM
wat, so in a Dm7 chord, the 3rd would be F and the 7th would be B?

Toaster
11-01-2005, 05:36 PM
wat, so in a Dm7 chord, the 3rd would be F and the 7th would be B?

Nope, it would be a C.. the fifth of the Dm scale is A, and 3 semitones up from that is C.

lightningmetal666
11-01-2005, 05:39 PM
Nope, it would be a C.. the fifth of the Dm scale is A, and 3 semitones up from that is C.


Damn, beat me too it.

I just went over this in music theory yesterday. :lol:

Stormrider
11-01-2005, 05:40 PM
The fifth note of the F major and minor scale is C. Therefore, any F5 chord is always that shape right there.

The F major scale is F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F. The fifth note is C, the third fret on the A string. So "F5" means F, and in the key of F, the fifth note of the scale.

I apologize if this confuses you, ask again if you don't understand.


No i understand now thnx...cuz i was thinking the ADDED fifth so i thought it was the last note of the chord. Yes silly i know. Ok so just to be sure...if I take.. a G for example...adding the fifth note of that scale to the G, it would give me a power chord and for an extra, I could add the octave.

Toaster
11-01-2005, 05:43 PM
No i understand now thnx...cuz i was thinking the ADDED fifth so i thought it was the last note of the chord. Yes silly i know. Ok so just to be sure...if I take.. a G for example...adding the fifth note of that scale to the G, it would give me a power chord and for an extra, I could add the octave.

Right on. Many chords can be formed that way, if you look at 7th chords all you do is add the 7th of that particular scale to the chord.

Stormrider
11-01-2005, 05:46 PM
Right on. Many chords can be formed that way, if you look at 7th chords all you do is add the 7th of that particular scale to the chord.


Thanx alot...do you know of any theory sites you could give me ?
As I think you realized, im pretty poor in theory.

EDIT: Theres one thing i didnt get...if you have to add the seventh note to the chord, why am i adding the fifth to only the single note F ?

lightningmetal666
11-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Thanx alot...do you know of any theory sites you could give me ?
As I think you realized, im pretty poor in theory.

Cyberfret.com

If you use guitarpro, you could go to mysongbook.com and download some stuff from the lessons that demonstrate a practical use of theory. Well at least for us headbangers.:p

Toaster
11-01-2005, 05:56 PM
EDIT: Theres one thing i didnt get...if you have to add the seventh note to the chord, why am i adding the fifth to only the single note F ?

I'm not sure I understood your question, but I'll give it a shot..

It's because a 7th chord has a tonality, meaning that there's always a major or a minor to it. For example C+ (Major) 7th must have the third note of the C Major scale, and it has to have the 7th of that scale. You need to know whether or not the scale is major or minor to get the 7th of the chord. But the 5th is the same regardless of tonailty (+ or -), so you only need that 5th.

Stormrider
11-01-2005, 06:05 PM
I'm not sure I understood your question, but I'll give it a shot..

It's because a 7th chord has a tonality, meaning that there's always a major or a minor to it. For example C+ (Major) 7th must have the third note of the C Major scale, and it has to have the 7th of that scale. You need to know whether or not the scale is major or minor to get the 7th of the chord. But the 5th is the same regardless of tonailty (+ or -), so you only need that 5th.


Oh ok. So the seventh changes from a major to a minor and the fifth stays the same. so from what i understood, the other notes werent important to determine what the note was, in othewords, only the fifth was needed. But in the case of the seventh you need both because the seventh changes
from a minor to a major.

I think I just reworte what you said in different words:p

lightningmetal666
11-01-2005, 06:05 PM
I'm not sure I understood your question, but I'll give it a shot..

It's because a 7th chord has a tonality, meaning that there's always a major or a minor to it. For example C+ (Major) 7th must have the third note of the C Major scale, and it has to have the 7th of that scale. You need to know whether or not the scale is major or minor to get the 7th of the chord. But the 5th is the same regardless of tonailty (+ or -), so you only need that 5th.


Plus the fifth also is a big factor in describing the quality of a 7th chord.


Keep in mind though that you can have a diminished, perfect, or augmented
5th. This is what will determine the quality of a 7th chord.

Dr. Jake Destructo
11-01-2005, 06:09 PM
So, I figured that some of you theory geeks would get a laugh out of this. My friend, who is quite the accomplished musician(he can play drums, guitar, bass(standup and electric), and sing very well) is working on an album right now, and he's going to call it "Sir Mix-o-Lydian."

zomg mode jokes lol

http://www.myspace.com/humantrap You can check out a song or two there, if you'd like.

Toaster
11-01-2005, 06:16 PM
So, I figured that some of you theory geeks would get a laugh out of this. My friend, who is quite the accomplished musician(he can play drums, guitar, bass(standup and electric), and sing very well) is working on an album right now, and he's going to call it "Sir Mix-o-Lydian."

zomg mode jokes lol



?? Didn't get that joke at all. It alludes to the Mixolydian scale, that's all I get.

lightningmetal666
11-01-2005, 06:20 PM
So, I figured that some of you theory geeks would get a laugh out of this. My friend, who is quite the accomplished musician(he can play drums, guitar, bass(standup and electric), and sing very well) is working on an album right now, and he's going to call it "Sir Mix-o-Lydian."

zomg mode jokes lol

http://www.myspace.com/humantrap You can check out a song or two there, if you'd like.


Lame Joke but it's still better than my friend's potato song.

all of the lyrics are:

"You say potato, I say f*ck you. You say potato, I say shut the f*ck up."


Moving on..... Kind of a funny story, I actually know a guy who thinks that an augmented fourth is more dissonant than a diminished 5th. LOL. Stupid retard.

Toaster
11-01-2005, 06:23 PM
Oh ok. So the seventh changes from a major to a minor and the fifth stays the same. so from what i understood, the other notes werent important to determine what the note was, in othewords, only the fifth was needed. But in the case of the seventh you need both because the seventh changes
from a minor to a major.

I think I just reworte what you said in different words:p

Spot on. You pick it up quick, actually.

That potato song is hilarious!! He has to have been signed.

Stormrider
11-01-2005, 06:24 PM
Lame Joke but it's still better than my friend's potato song.

all of the lyrics are:

"You say potato, I say f*ck you. You say potato, I say shut the f*ck up."


WTF?? :confused:

anyways, im looking at this lil chord booklet, and i came across the G minor pentatonic and the pattern is:m3WWm3W.

i know what the W's stand for but what does the m3 stand for ?

lightningmetal666
11-01-2005, 06:26 PM
WTF?? :confused:

anyways, im looking at this lil chord booklet, and i came across the G minor pentatonic and the pattern is:m3WWm3W.

i know what the W's stand for but what does the m3 stand for ?


Don't ask, he was really drunk when he wrote that.

Anyways m3 stands for minor 3rd. or 3 halfsteps.

Toaster
11-01-2005, 06:28 PM
WTF?? :confused:

anyways, im looking at this lil chord booklet, and i came across the G minor pentatonic and the pattern is:m3WWm3W.

i know what the W's stand for but what does the m3 stand for ?

Weird. I think the W's stand for whole tones, meaning two semitones, and a minor 3rd (m3) is three semitones.

So any minor pentatonic scale is, root, 3 semitones, 2 sts, 2 sts, 3 sts, and 2 sts. Strange way of putting it.

Stormrider
11-01-2005, 06:36 PM
Weird. I think the W's stand for whole tones, meaning two semitones, and a minor 3rd (m3) is three semitones.

So any minor pentatonic scale is, root, 3 semitones, 2 sts, 2 sts, 3 sts, and 2 sts. Strange way of putting it.


Oh ok...the minor pattern is WHWWHWW, and pentatonic minor is m3WWm3W...put the 3 semitones together and it makes WH...so the pentonic minor goes back to the minor pattern. Its the same thing with the major except different pattern.

then whats the use of taking 2 notes in the major and minor scales away to make a pentatonic ?

This may be a stupid question so sorry if it is.

lightningmetal666
11-01-2005, 06:40 PM
Oh ok...the minor pattern is WHWWHWW, and pentatonic minor is m3WWm3W...put the 3 semitones together and it makes WH...so the pentonic minor goes back to the minor pattern. Its the same thing with the major except different pattern.

then whats the use of taking 2 notes in the major and minor scales away to make a pentatonic ?

This may be a stupid question so sorry if it is.


I dunno, good question. Maybe to have a wider intervallic sound?
That's about all I come up with.

Toaster
11-01-2005, 06:40 PM
Oh ok...the minor pattern is WHWWHWW, and pentatonic minor is m3WWm3W...put the 3 semitones together and it makes WH...so the pentonic minor goes back to the minor pattern. Its the same thing with the major except different pattern.

then whats the use of taking 2 notes in the major and minor scales away to make a pentatonic ?

This may be a stupid question so sorry if it is.

Well that's just what it is. Sorry, there's no grand explaination, but that's what the pentatonic scale is- Five (penta) notes (tonic).

Stormrider
11-01-2005, 06:44 PM
Oh well, thanx alot toaster135 and lightningmetal666. What you guys said helped alot. Ill be posting here often.

GenuineImitation
11-01-2005, 07:11 PM
What exactly makes a chrod Diminished and Suspended?

DeusExMachina
11-01-2005, 07:40 PM
What exactly makes a chrod Diminished and Suspended?
Basic chords come in four types. They are...
Major: 1 3 5 (In C: C E G)
Minor: 1 b3 5 (In C: C Eb G)
Diminished 1 b3 b5 (In C: C Eb Gb)
Augments 1 3 #5 (In C: C E G#)

A suspended chord is when you use a tone that, in context of the 1 and 5, wants to resolve to a third. This note would be a 2 or a 4. This is called suspended, because it has this feeling of suspense, like you're waiting for something. The 2 or 4 generally will resolve to the 3. Also, these chords will generally resolve to a major chord, rather than minor, although minor is by no means unheard of. So...
Csus2: C D G
Csus4: C F G

Keep in mind that if you have a 2 or a 4 as well as a 3, then the chord isn't a suspended chord. This is usually called an add chord. For instance, a chord that goes C E G D would be a Cadd9. They use 9 instead of 2 because the D will generally be over an octave higher than the root C (at least, that's my understanding). A C9 chord, without the add, would also have a flat seventh. so, C9 = C E G Bb D. Cmaj9 would have a major 7th, or B instead of Bb.

Hope this helped.

GenuineImitation
11-01-2005, 07:50 PM
Basic chords come in four types. They are...
Major: 1 3 5 (In C: C E G)
Minor: 1 b3 5 (In C: C Eb G)
Diminished 1 b3 b5 (In C: C Eb Gb)
Augments 1 3 #5 (In C: C E G#)

A suspended chord is when you use a tone that, in context of the 1 and 5, wants to resolve to a third. This note would be a 2 or a 4. This is called suspended, because it has this feeling of suspense, like you're waiting for something. The 2 or 4 generally will resolve to the 3. Also, these chords will generally resolve to a major chord, rather than minor, although minor is by no means unheard of. So...
Csus2: C D G
Csus4: C F G

Keep in mind that if you have a 2 or a 4 as well as a 3, then the chord isn't a suspended chord. This is usually called an add chord. For instance, a chord that goes C E G D would be a Cadd9. They use 9 instead of 2 because the D will generally be over an octave higher than the root C (at least, that's my understanding). A C9 chord, without the add, would also have a flat seventh. so, C9 = C E G Bb D. Cmaj9 would have a major 7th, or B instead of Bb.

Hope this helped.


Very informative and helpful. Thanks

DeusExMachina
11-01-2005, 08:34 PM
Ok, I noticed the theory joke up there, so I'm going to add a simplistic one, but it amuses me.

So a Bb, Db, and an F walk into a bar. The bar tender says "I'm sorry, we don't serve minors here," so the Db leaves and the Bb and the F share a fifth.

Lame, but it amuses me.

Deth
11-01-2005, 08:38 PM
:lol: I did enjoy that.

DeusExMachina
11-01-2005, 08:58 PM
Ok, so I was reading Toasters answer about some question about the fifth and seventh chords and stuff, and I didn't really understand the question too well. But, just something I'd like to point out... YOU DO NOT NEED THE FIFTH IN COMPLEX (i.e. not triad) CHORDS! In fact, I like to leave out the fifth as much as possible. Also, the root isn't really necessary in terms of identifying the chord type, although it's generally nice to have (but there are exceptions!) The only notes that really are needed to identify the chord type are the 3rd and 7th. And if you're doing more complex chords, I guess the other notes like 9th's and 11th's. But, as a general rule, the 3rd and 7th are the most important for identifying type.

Ad Absurdum
11-02-2005, 11:37 AM
The fifth note of the F major and minor scale is C. Therefore, any F5 chord is always that shape right there.

The F major scale is F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F. The fifth note is C, the third fret on the A string. So "F5" means F, and in the key of F, the fifth note of the scale.

I apologize if this confuses you, ask again if you don't understand. It doesn't have to be that shape. An F5 chord (also written as F Major (No 3rd) and F Minor (no 3rd) is any chord with the notes F and C, so it could, for example, be:
E|----
B|-1--
G|----
D|----
A|----
E|-1--
There are lot's of other possibilities too.

Oh ok. So the seventh changes from a major to a minor and the fifth stays the same. so from what i understood, the other notes werent important to determine what the note was, in othewords, only the fifth was needed. But in the case of the seventh you need both because the seventh changes
from a minor to a major. There seems to be a little confusion over the seventh chords, so I'll post a guide.

Basically, working diatonically (that means within the context of a major scale), there are only 4 types of seventh chord you can make. The first, and most obvious, is the major seventh chord, built off the first degree of the scale (scale degrees are just the note number in the scale, so in C Major, C is the first degree, D the second etc...same idea as intervals). So the 7th chord built off the first degree of the scale is as follows:
1 3 5 7
C E G B
The number corresponds to the scale degree, and the letter is the example in C Major. This is a major 7th chord, the interval between the root (C) and the third (E) is a major third, and the interval between the root (C) and the 7th (B) is a major 7th.
This major 7th chord is also built off other degrees of the major scale. For example, is we build a 7th chord off the fourth degree of the major scale we would get a major seventh chrod too. So in C, build a major 7th chord off of the F, using notes from the C Major scale and you will find that it conforms to the criteria of a major 7th chord.

The next type is the dominant 7th, usually just written X7. This has the formula:
1 3 5 b7
G B D F
This chord can only be built off the fifth degree of any scale, for example in C it can be built off the fifth (G). If we build the 7th chord of G using notes from C Major it falls into the formula above thus it's a dominant 7th.

The next type is minor seventh, this has the forumla:
1 b3 5 b7
D F A C
Notice the minor intervals between the root and the third and between the root and the seventh, this is why it's a minor chord. There are 3 of these that can be built out of a major scale; they can be made by building chords of the 2nd, 3rd or 6th degrees.

Now there's only one degree left to build a chord off of - the 7th. The chord built off of this scale is a little more confusing, because you get a flat fifth. This is the formula:
1 b3 b5 b7
B D F A
Some people might tell you this is a diminished chord - it isn't. It's just a minor 7th chord with a flat 5th (the 7th would have to be double flat to make it diminished).

DuesExMachina is totally right though - you don't need the 5th that much. It's strongly implied by the root anyway so it's not necessary. The 3rds and 7ths are important though, they are what gives the chord it's character. Colour tones (notes outwith the usual 3rd, 5th and 7th used in most chords) are very important too - but it's best to get 7th chords down before you start trying to add colour tones.

Moving on..... Kind of a funny story, I actually know a guy who thinks that an augmented fourth is more dissonant than a diminished 5th. LOL. Stupid retard. :lol:

Shred Danson
11-02-2005, 11:39 AM
Ok, I noticed the theory joke up there, so I'm going to add a simplistic one, but it amuses me.

So a Bb, Db, and an F walk into a bar. The bar tender says "I'm sorry, we don't serve minors here," so the Db leaves and the Bb and the F share a fifth.

Lame, but it amuses me.

:lol: that was so corny it was good.

mono12
11-02-2005, 01:34 PM
how bout this then -
for some obscure reason a band decided it would be cool to do a gig in a cavern. they had to lower the instruments down a hole to get them there but a particularly heavy amp snapped the rope and you had Ab minor. ( A flat miner)

bu-dum teesh

that must be the worst yet.

thickasabrick
11-02-2005, 02:04 PM
I've always been curious....do the various types of metal display any common/popular chord progressions? Like in rock you can always suspect the I, IV, V progression (Wild Thing, for example), or the I, V, VI, IV progression (Let It Be seems to be the most well known example).

I've noticed a lot of common chord progressions from what Metal I've listened to, which is basically just Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, and Metallica.....but I'm more curious about like Death Metal or any of those other metal genres that seem a lot less musically....predictable? (for lack of a better word)

Ad Absurdum
11-02-2005, 02:30 PM
how bout this then -
for some obscure reason a band decided it would be cool to do a gig in a cavern. they had to lower the instruments down a hole to get them there but a particularly heavy amp snapped the rope and you Ab minor.

bu-dum teesh

that must be the worst yet. I'm not sure if I got that one...

Heh, this one's more aimed at guitar, but my teacher once told me he broke a G string whilst fingering A minor.

I've always been curious....do the various types of metal display any common/popular chord progressions? Like in rock you can always suspect the I, IV, V progression (Wild Thing, for example), or the I, V, VI, IV progression (Let It Be seems to be the most well known example).

I've noticed a lot of common chord progressions from what Metal I've listened to, which is basically just Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, and Metallica.....but I'm more curious about like Death Metal or any of those other metal genres that seem a lot less musically....predictable? (for lack of a better word)
Death metal isn't really music to analyse harmonically*. The rhythmic aspects will probably be interesting, but in general the harmony is pretty basic. In other words, don't transcribe a Cryptopsy song expecting to recognise cadences in it. Power metal, progressive metal and more melodic styles of metal are more likely to place an emphasis on the harmony aspect of the music.

*In general terms, but there are sure to be exceptions. I wouldn't know, I've not heard many obvious progressions in death metal and I don't transcribe any death metal on my guitar.

DeusExMachina
11-02-2005, 02:34 PM
I've always been curious....do the various types of metal display any common/popular chord progressions? Like in rock you can always suspect the I, IV, V progression (Wild Thing, for example), or the I, V, VI, IV progression (Let It Be seems to be the most well known example).

I've noticed a lot of common chord progressions from what Metal I've listened to, which is basically just Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, and Metallica.....but I'm more curious about like Death Metal or any of those other metal genres that seem a lot less musically....predictable? (for lack of a better word)
I've not studied much metal at all, but my understanding is that it doesn't generally follow established chord progressions. I think it just makes very liberal use of diminished intervals..? Don't quote me on it, though.

mono12
11-02-2005, 02:34 PM
maybe if I re-iterate A flat miner? sorry i didn't phrase it too well.

there must be thousands of G-string ones.

Ad Absurdum
11-02-2005, 02:40 PM
maybe if I re-iterate A flat miner? sorry i didn't phrase it too well.

there must be thousands of G-string ones.
/gets it
:lol:

I've not studied much metal at all, but my understanding is that it doesn't generally follow established chord progressions. I think it just makes very liberal use of diminished intervals..? Don't quote me on it, though.
Yeah, lot's of diminished stuff, at least in extreme metal.

Toaster
11-02-2005, 02:40 PM
I've not studied much metal at all, but my understanding is that it doesn't generally follow established chord progressions. I think it just makes very liberal use of diminished intervals..? Don't quote me on it, though.

Well tons of modern metal sounds the same, especially with the chord progressions.. I don't know anything really about chord progressions, but I know that a lot of new metal bands use the same ones over and over (Killswitch, All That Remains).

Stormrider
11-02-2005, 05:02 PM
It doesn't have to be that shape. An F5 chord (also written as F Major (No 3rd) and F Minor (no 3rd) is any chord with the notes F and C, so it could, for example, be:
E|----
B|-1--
G|----
D|----
A|----
E|-1--
There are lot's of other possibilities too.

There seems to be a little confusion over the seventh chords, so I'll post a guide.

Basically, working diatonically (that means within the context of a major scale), there are only 4 types of seventh chord you can make. The first, and most obvious, is the major seventh chord, built off the first degree of the scale (scale degrees are just the note number in the scale, so in C Major, C is the first degree, D the second etc...same idea as intervals). So the 7th chord built off the first degree of the scale is as follows:
1 3 5 7
C E G B
The number corresponds to the scale degree, and the letter is the example in C Major. This is a major 7th chord, the interval between the root (C) and the third (E) is a major third, and the interval between the root (C) and the 7th (B) is a major 7th.
This major 7th chord is also built off other degrees of the major scale. For example, is we build a 7th chord off the fourth degree of the major scale we would get a major seventh chrod too. So in C, build a major 7th chord off of the F, using notes from the C Major scale and you will find that it conforms to the criteria of a major 7th chord.

The next type is the dominant 7th, usually just written X7. This has the formula:
1 3 5 b7
G B D F
This chord can only be built off the fifth degree of any scale, for example in C it can be built off the fifth (G). If we build the 7th chord of G using notes from C Major it falls into the formula above thus it's a dominant 7th.

The next type is minor seventh, this has the forumla:
1 b3 5 b7
D F A C
Notice the minor intervals between the root and the third and between the root and the seventh, this is why it's a minor chord. There are 3 of these that can be built out of a major scale; they can be made by building chords of the 2nd, 3rd or 6th degrees.

Now there's only one degree left to build a chord off of - the 7th. The chord built off of this scale is a little more confusing, because you get a flat fifth. This is the formula:
1 b3 b5 b7
B D F A
Some people might tell you this is a diminished chord - it isn't. It's just a minor 7th chord with a flat 5th (the 7th would have to be double flat to make it diminished).

DuesExMachina is totally right though - you don't need the 5th that much. It's strongly implied by the root anyway so it's not necessary. The 3rds and 7ths are important though, they are what gives the chord it's character. Colour tones (notes outwith the usual 3rd, 5th and 7th used in most chords) are very important too - but it's best to get 7th chords down before you start trying to add colour tones.

:lol:


This helps but ill have to read it over a few more times to fully understand this. I kind of get mixed up when you talk about switching degrees because i don't know any scales. But thanx anyways though...

theres one thing, when you say for example C9, isnt there only 7 notes in a scale (8 counting the octave) ?

DeusExMachina
11-02-2005, 05:06 PM
They literally use the same progression over and over? How does that not get hideously boring?

I was reading back, and Stormrider asked earlier what the point of taking out the second and sixth (minor) or fourth and seventh (major) of a scale to make a pentatonic is. There actually is a good explanation. Harmonization.

When first learning to improvise, a guitarist will generally not have very good fret board vision. This means, they won't be able to think on their feet to find out what note fits well with the current chord, especially with 7 notes to choose from. However, by taking out the half steps, minor seconds are avoided, thus eliminating potential dissonance. The pentatonic scales are of course limiting in that they don't give the guitarist as much range, but any one of those 5 notes will generally sound at the very least decent over any chord in popular blues and rock progressions.

This helps but ill have to read it over a few more times to fully understand this. I kind of get mixed up when you talk about switching degrees because i don't know any scales. But thanx anyways though...

theres one thing, when you say for example C9, isnt there only 7 notes in a scale (8 counting the octave) ?
The 9 is the 9th note of the scale, which exists if taking a scale for more than one octave. So to simplify, the 9th is the 2nd only an octave higher.

GenuineImitation
11-02-2005, 05:12 PM
I have heard that Marty Friedman uses exotic scales for his solos. An example is the song Sweating Bullets (according to my old guitar teacher). Can someone show me what scales Marty uses, or any other exoti scales. By exotic I mean not commonly used in rock or metal or have an ethinical feel to them.

Stormrider
11-02-2005, 05:15 PM
They literally use the same progression over and over? How does that not get hideously boring?

I was reading back, and Stormrider asked earlier what the point of taking out the second and sixth (minor) or fourth and seventh (major) of a scale to make a pentatonic is. There actually is a good explanation. Harmonization.

When first learning to improvise, a guitarist will generally not have very good fret board vision. This means, they won't be able to think on their feet to find out what note fits well with the current chord, especially with 7 notes to choose from. However, by taking out the half steps, minor seconds are avoided, thus eliminating potential dissonance. The pentatonic scales are of course limiting in that they don't give the guitarist as much range, but any one of those 5 notes will generally sound at the very least decent over any chord in popular blues and rock progressions.


The 9 is the 9th note of the scale, which exists if taking a scale for more than one octave. So to simplify, the 9th is the 2nd only an octave higher.

Oh ok thats what i thought about the using more then one octave, but anyways thanx. Reading all of this theory is depressing. And i have a feeling this is the more simpler one.

Wheres a good place to start in learning theory ? Im getting better in the chords department but still.

Chimaera One
11-02-2005, 05:16 PM
Not been posting here for a few days, but no toaster, I wasn't calling you tone deaf! That comment was related to myself, I spent a good lot of time last summer trying to master perfect pitch from almost near incompetence in the topic.

And yeah, a lot of people have different ways of looking at perfect pitch. My dad is supposed to have it, and people have told him it's being able to tell if something is slightly sharp or flat.

Your piano teacher probably has noticed you actually *do* have perfect pitch, but because you're not aware of it, you haven't been able to develop it.

DeusExMachina
11-02-2005, 05:21 PM
Well, I don't know what Marty Friedman uses, but I can give you examples of scales not commonly used in rock or metal.

Phrygian scale. Technically it's a mode, but it's pretty heavily used on flamenco. 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. Note that many flamenco guitarists choose not to flat the third, as the b2 is the note that really emphasizes the sound.

Altered scale: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7. The seventh mode of the melodic minor scale. Used in weird jazz stuff. It has a diminished 4th (which I am now going to call a major 3rd for simplicity's sake) and a b7, thus giving it key tones of a dominant seventh chord. Other than that, it's all weird stuff. Cool if you know how to use it, but it can be pretty hideous if used poorly.

Harmonic minor has a very cliche middle eastern sound. 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7. According to Eggo, it's too cliche, so most middle eastern artists actually use the melodic minor instead. The melodic minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 when ascending, and 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 when descending.

The enigmatic scale is 1 b2 3 #4 #5 #6 7. I don't know much about it.

The chromatic scale. This one has been picking up steam in the prog world (Dream Theater make very liberal use of it) but up until recently, no one used it but pretty avant garde 12 tone composers. This one uses every single note.

I have to run, but I can give some more later if you'd like. I guess some of those weren't really all that exotic, but whatev. Hope it helped.

GenuineImitation
11-02-2005, 05:25 PM
Well, I don't know what Marty Friedman uses, but I can give you examples of scales not commonly used in rock or metal.

Phrygian scale. Technically it's a mode, but it's pretty heavily used on flamenco. 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. Note that many flamenco guitarists choose not to flat the third, as the b2 is the note that really emphasizes the sound.

Altered scale: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7. The seventh mode of the melodic minor scale. Used in weird jazz stuff. It has a diminished 4th (which I am now going to call a major 3rd for simplicity's sake) and a b7, thus giving it key tones of a dominant seventh chord. Other than that, it's all weird stuff. Cool if you know how to use it, but it can be pretty hideous if used poorly.

Harmonic minor has a very cliche middle eastern sound. 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7. According to Eggo, it's too cliche, so most middle eastern artists actually use the melodic minor instead. The melodic minor is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 when ascending, and 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 when descending.

The enigmatic scale is 1 b2 3 #4 #5 #6 7. I don't know much about it.

The chromatic scale. This one has been picking up steam in the prog world (Dream Theater make very liberal use of it) but up until recently, no one used it but pretty avant garde 12 tone composers. This one uses every single note.

I have to run, but I can give some more later if you'd like. I guess some of those weren't really all that exotic, but whatev. Hope it helped.



Im pretty familiar with the Chomatic scale, but not the others. This is the second time you helped me in this thread and both times were very informative. I would give you rep if I had the ability. If you can give some more at a later time if you like, but it wont be that necessary yet. I kind of want to learn and absorb this first.

Toaster
11-02-2005, 05:27 PM
What's that scale that is actually the harmonic minor scale, but starting on the fifth I think? I can't remember the name, but it's really egyptian sounding and I use it really often.

DeusExMachina
11-02-2005, 05:40 PM
Oh ok thats what i thought about the using more then one octave, but anyways thanx. Reading all of this theory is depressing. And i have a feeling this is the more simpler one.

Wheres a good place to start in learning theory ? Im getting better in the chords department but still.
If they offer it at your school, I would recommend taking a class. Local community colleges also often offer music theory courses that are open to all people, even non-students. You would probably have to pay for it, but it would be worthwhile. Also, I'm told cyberfret.com is a good resource, although I've never actually used it.
What's that scale that is actually the harmonic minor scale, but starting on the fifth I think? I can't remember the name, but it's really egyptian sounding and I use it really often.
That would be the phrygian scale, only with a natural third instead of a b3. I mentioned it in the scale bit that was up a couple posts. It's used really often in flamenco, and would probably give a good egyptian sound too, although I don't use it much.

Toaster
11-02-2005, 05:42 PM
That would be the phrygian scale, only with a natural third instead of a b3. I mentioned it in the scale bit that was up a couple posts. It's used really often in flamenco, and would probably give a good egyptian sound too, although I don't use it much.

It has a name though.. I've heard it thrown around in Guitar World magazine a couple of times. It would be nice to be able to say the scale and have guitarists immediately know what I'm talking about, instead of them trying to find out, ok what is the phrygian scale, flat that third, etc.

DeusExMachina
11-02-2005, 05:48 PM
Well, if it actually has a name beyond phrygian, I can't help you. When I was taught about it, it was in the context of a variation on the phrygian.

Edit: Just googled it. Apparently it's called the Spanish scale. Once again, very common in flamenco.

randomthought9
11-02-2005, 06:48 PM
When do you use chromatics? Wouldn't it clash with your chord progression, since there is so many notes. I would think you would hit a bad note somewhere. Also, what's a good music theory book? I know a little theory, but I'm no expert.

DeusExMachina
11-02-2005, 06:59 PM
Using chromatic doesn't mean that you just run up and down the scale. It just means that the chord progression isn't necessarily a logical one in terms of a diatonic scale, and that you use whatever note works, regardless of how it would relate with a note used 5 seconds ago. Generally, 12 tone composers don't use many chords. You have to be pretty knowledgeable to write/play with chromatics, and I don't know enough about them to help too much.

I don't know of a good book, but cyberfret.com is supposed to be a good theory resource. Just look around on the net, or see if you can take a class at your school or a local college.

Cain
11-03-2005, 11:14 AM
Well, if it actually has a name beyond phrygian, I can't help you. When I was taught about it, it was in the context of a variation on the phrygian.

Edit: Just googled it. Apparently it's called the Spanish scale. Once again, very common in flamenco.

It's also known as Phrygian Major or Phrygian Dominant, owing to the major third. It's bland technical title is Phrygian Natural 3 scale.

Here's some of the OTHER modes of the harmonic minor scale (which get shortchanged a LOT for some reason) just for comparison and to open your ears to new tonal possibilities.

MODE 2: Locrian Natural 6 (1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7)
MODE 3: Ionian #5 (1 2 3 4 #5 6 7)
MODE 4: Dorian #4 (1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7)
MODE 5: The aforemention Phrygian Major
MODE 6: Lydian #2 (1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7)
MODE 7: Alt bb7 (1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7)

I think a lot of those are super-cool. If you know the applications of the modes they're screwing with (for instance, the ALT scale would ordinarily be the Mixolydian scale in a natural minor setting) you can get a lot of alternative soloing options and TONS of passing tones. This is great in jazz, and less so (but still good) in dissonant metal.

When do you use chromatics? Wouldn't it clash with your chord progression, since there is so many notes. I would think you would hit a bad note somewhere.

The proper, musical application of chromatics (also known as "passing tones" or "accidentals") is one of the most misunderstood (and, in my opinion, mistaught) elements of soloing theory.

Nearly every book that includes writing on the subject talks about how the chromatic scale is based off of all twelve notes in Western music: many of these books make the mistake of then saying that, "therefore, every note in the scale sounds good," or that "you can therefore use every note on the fretboard when soloing." Rarely do they establish a proper context for the use of every note on the fretboard, nor do any piece of literature effectively explain how to utilize them in musical ways. Therefore, when beginning guitarists tackle the chromatic scale over a diatonic passage, they tend to get upset: there are too many "wrong notes" and so the whole passage sounds like crap, which is at odds with the impression given by what little they know about it (wait, didn't the book say any note would sound good?).

The reason for this is because the chromatic scale is an ATONAL scale. This is typically explained but not embellished: the chromatic scale is often taught in guitar books merely because it is a stand-by of what is currently "basic theory," and which is often used in basic classical songs, but which has little practical application at first for the majority of guitar players who want to IMPROVISE rather than play rigid classical, who can often play music without reading or even knowing a note. This is a mistake of the theory institution's own unique rigidity. The popular (within the community) assumption about what "basic theory" is in this day and age--that is to say, classical theory--has little relevance to many modern guitar players' ambitions and musical goals (i.e., to play rock or blues), at least at first.

However, the chromatic scale has obvious musical application: however, the effective use of it is rarely copped by the metal guitar players and so continues to be misunderstood by the majority of guitarists--the true masters of the use of chromaticism in musical ways are jazz guitarists.

So, let's talk about this for second:

What does atonal mean? As the book typically says, there's no key signature, and no center tone. This is why so many people get confused when they say immediately after this that "every note therefore sounds good:" much of the music that ALL musicians play DOES have a key signature and a diatonic feeling, except in the most avant-garde forms of classical and jazz. Therefore, when you play the chromatic scale over, say, C-D-Em in a rock fashion (i.e. with sustained notes and bends) the results would be bad for at least 4 or five of the notes, since those notes will NOT under any circumstances fit with the progression, which is irrevocably natural minor. This is also why harmonic minor is misused: people will use harmonic minor as an "alternative soloing scale" to natural minor as their magazine suggests but then play the D# in the scale over the D chord in their still-natural minor progression. This sounds strange to play, certainly "ear-catching," but not good. You never want to do that in the context of rock or metal.

The best uses of chromaticism come in "open" tonalities: for instance, blues and jazz. The scope of the theory of those musical styles is often mysterious and WAY too advanced for me to detail in one post, but essentially, jazz soloing is MUCH different from rock soloing. There's almost no bending, there's very little solid metronomic rhythm, and the phrases tend to be more "buttery," quick, and "outside" not just the key but also the beat.

The underlying chord progressions of jazz songs are really what make the use of chromaticism work, since very often the jazz songs have dissonant chords themselves providing the harmonic base. The reason jazz still sounds musical, though, is because the majority of songs of the classic styles are based off blues forms and so include the open tonality of both major and minor: they also include the modal embellishments of those relevant keys. Not only will a jazz song in A accomodate major and minor pentatonic tonalities the way basic blues will, but often the specific chords will have extensions entering the realms of 9ths and 11ths, not to mention venture into the diatonic territories of BOTH A major and A minor. But the musical movement is typically quite chromatic and so creates a sense of resolution even with all the accidental notes: one thing that the chromatic scale does as a harmonic foundation is create a definite sense of movement and musical resolution. As a result of this movement, the jazz guitarists already have HUGE melodic spaces to explore in their soloing.

The tack typically taken by many jazz players are to focus their phrases around chord tones and arpeggios rather than linear scales. Jazz phrasing is choppy and nimble, and very often running a scale up and down the way metal players do sounds TERRIBLE in the context of the rhythm, the chord changes, and the general feel. It also sounds really obvious and uninteresting, and plus when you think only in terms of scales you get into huge trouble keeping up with chord changes in jazz. You don't have time to switch from the Em Dorian that the Em7 in "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" dictates to the Bb Mixolydian b2 scale that the following Bb7b9 chord needs in a musical fashion.

However, chord changes ARE typically memorized (as they must be so that the tune can be performed), and so soloists will know the arpeggios of the song's progression backward and forward. Therefore, their soloing will often be based on chord tones so that the musical sense of their solo is "garunteed." Then, when the adventurousness starts, this is where chromaticism comes into play. Often, jazz soloists will lead into a chord tone with the chromatic note immediately under it, or throw in blues chromatics into a phrase. And since the progressions often have a lot of those accidentals in them anyway (and since the jazzers will be focusing on chord tones) there will already technically be a lot of chromaticism because of the simple copping of the progression, since those tones will fall "outside" the key signature.

In rock and metal, there are some standbys. Dorian forms and blues pentatonics are the obvious ones. Metal players, since they play over such dissonant riffs, will often have deliberately (and similarly) dissonant solos, that don't really sound much like music but which wheedle and shred by like the chugging riffs underneath them. Playing over diatonic progressions in metal or rock, though, neccesitates the use of the proper scale. Your music will sound BEST if you just stick to the melodic and harmonic guns of the piece, and if you're going to go wacky dissonant, have your rhythm underneath you fit it. Your solo and your note choices will only sound as good and appropriate as the chords underneath them.

Moral: Play more rhythm. :p

Also, what's a good music theory book? I know a little theory, but I'm no expert.

The Guitar Grimoire is by far the superior series, as it has multiple books and illustrates the relationships without trying to be hip. Too many theory books try to sound like they're written by cool rock dudes, but to be honest theory is an academic consideration and art, and should be treated as such: it is musical education. That being said, the Grimoire series is fabulously organized and elucidated. That is my sole recommendation: nothing comes close to the thoroughness and scope, or clarity, of those books.

EDIT: Sorry about the improvised essay, BTW. I think that will help your questions.

Ad Absurdum
11-03-2005, 12:00 PM
I have heard that Marty Friedman uses exotic scales for his solos. An example is the song Sweating Bullets (according to my old guitar teacher). Can someone show me what scales Marty uses, or any other exoti scales. By exotic I mean not commonly used in rock or metal or have an ethinical feel to them. Well, Marty takes an intresting stance when he solos. He knows a good deal of theory, but he doesn't generally use scales. He analyses what chord he is playing over and due to lots of practice he knows what he can play and what he can't play over what. As a result, his solos are quite creative and don't follow typical standards for soloing. If you analyse what he plays, he uses some obscure scales like the Japanese scale, again I'm going to post [url=http://home.swipnet.se/freakguitar/scales.html]this link[url] to give you a list of some strange scales, but if you want to imitate Marty then you shouldn't be doing it through scales.

Oh ok thats what i thought about the using more then one octave, but anyways thanx. Reading all of this theory is depressing. And i have a feeling this is the more simpler one.

Wheres a good place to start in learning theory ? Im getting better in the chords department but still. I learned theory through the internet, there's no reason you can't do the same. You could build up a decent amount of knowledge by regularing in this thread until you have a good basis then building on your knowledge as you need it. Of course, the downside is you don't get enough practice in working with standard notation, which you have to make an effort to do separately. It's advisable to take a class if you can, but if you can't you can learn just as easily on the internet.

Great post Cain (above), lot's of good information there.

randomthought9
11-03-2005, 02:38 PM
It's also known as Phrygian Major or Phrygian Dominant, owing to the major third. It's bland technical title is Phrygian Natural 3 scale.

Here's some of the OTHER modes of the harmonic minor scale (which get shortchanged a LOT for some reason) just for comparison and to open your ears to new tonal possibilities.

MODE 2: Locrian Natural 6 (1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7)
MODE 3: Ionian #5 (1 2 3 4 #5 6 7)
MODE 4: Dorian #4 (1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7)
MODE 5: The aforemention Phrygian Major
MODE 6: Lydian #2 (1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7)
MODE 7: Alt bb7 (1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7)

I think a lot of those are super-cool. If you know the applications of the modes they're screwing with (for instance, the ALT scale would ordinarily be the Mixolydian scale in a natural minor setting) you can get a lot of alternative soloing options and TONS of passing tones. This is great in jazz, and less so (but still good) in dissonant metal.



The proper, musical application of chromatics (also known as "passing tones" or "accidentals") is one of the most misunderstood (and, in my opinion, mistaught) elements of soloing theory.

Nearly every book that includes writing on the subject talks about how the chromatic scale is based off of all twelve notes in Western music: many of these books make the mistake of then saying that, "therefore, every note in the scale sounds good," or that "you can therefore use every note on the fretboard when soloing." Rarely do they establish a proper context for the use of every note on the fretboard, nor do any piece of literature effectively explain how to utilize them in musical ways. Therefore, when beginning guitarists tackle the chromatic scale over a diatonic passage, they tend to get upset: there are too many "wrong notes" and so the whole passage sounds like crap, which is at odds with the impression given by what little they know about it (wait, didn't the book say any note would sound good?).

The reason for this is because the chromatic scale is an ATONAL scale. This is typically explained but not embellished: the chromatic scale is often taught in guitar books merely because it is a stand-by of what is currently "basic theory," and which is often used in basic classical songs, but which has little practical application at first for the majority of guitar players who want to IMPROVISE rather than play rigid classical, who can often play music without reading or even knowing a note. This is a mistake of the theory institution's own unique rigidity. The popular (within the community) assumption about what "basic theory" is in this day and age--that is to say, classical theory--has little relevance to many modern guitar players' ambitions and musical goals (i.e., to play rock or blues), at least at first.

However, the chromatic scale has obvious musical application: however, the effective use of it is rarely copped by the metal guitar players and so continues to be misunderstood by the majority of guitarists--the true masters of the use of chromaticism in musical ways are jazz guitarists.

So, let's talk about this for second:

What does atonal mean? As the book typically says, there's no key signature, and no center tone. This is why so many people get confused when they say immediately after this that "every note therefore sounds good:" much of the music that ALL musicians play DOES have a key signature and a diatonic feeling, except in the most avant-garde forms of classical and jazz. Therefore, when you play the chromatic scale over, say, C-D-Em in a rock fashion (i.e. with sustained notes and bends) the results would be bad for at least 4 or five of the notes, since those notes will NOT under any circumstances fit with the progression, which is irrevocably natural minor. This is also why harmonic minor is misused: people will use harmonic minor as an "alternative soloing scale" to natural minor as their magazine suggests but then play the D# in the scale over the D chord in their still-natural minor progression. This sounds strange to play, certainly "ear-catching," but not good. You never want to do that in the context of rock or metal.

The best uses of chromaticism come in "open" tonalities: for instance, blues and jazz. The scope of the theory of those musical styles is often mysterious and WAY too advanced for me to detail in one post, but essentially, jazz soloing is MUCH different from rock soloing. There's almost no bending, there's very little solid metronomic rhythm, and the phrases tend to be more "buttery," quick, and "outside" not just the key but also the beat.

The underlying chord progressions of jazz songs are really what make the use of chromaticism work, since very often the jazz songs have dissonant chords themselves providing the harmonic base. The reason jazz still sounds musical, though, is because the majority of songs of the classic styles are based off blues forms and so include the open tonality of both major and minor: they also include the modal embellishments of those relevant keys. Not only will a jazz song in A accomodate major and minor pentatonic tonalities the way basic blues will, but often the specific chords will have extensions entering the realms of 9ths and 11ths, not to mention venture into the diatonic territories of BOTH A major and A minor. But the musical movement is typically quite chromatic and so creates a sense of resolution even with all the accidental notes: one thing that the chromatic scale does as a harmonic foundation is create a definite sense of movement and musical resolution. As a result of this movement, the jazz guitarists already have HUGE melodic spaces to explore in their soloing.

The tack typically taken by many jazz players are to focus their phrases around chord tones and arpeggios rather than linear scales. Jazz phrasing is choppy and nimble, and very often running a scale up and down the way metal players do sounds TERRIBLE in the context of the rhythm, the chord changes, and the general feel. It also sounds really obvious and uninteresting, and plus when you think only in terms of scales you get into huge trouble keeping up with chord changes in jazz. You don't have time to switch from the Em Dorian that the Em7 in "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" dictates to the Bb Mixolydian b2 scale that the following Bb7b9 chord needs in a musical fashion.

However, chord changes ARE typically memorized (as they must be so that the tune can be performed), and so soloists will know the arpeggios of the song's progression backward and forward. Therefore, their soloing will often be based on chord tones so that the musical sense of their solo is "garunteed." Then, when the adventurousness starts, this is where chromaticism comes into play. Often, jazz soloists will lead into a chord tone with the chromatic note immediately under it, or throw in blues chromatics into a phrase. And since the progressions often have a lot of those accidentals in them anyway (and since the jazzers will be focusing on chord tones) there will already technically be a lot of chromaticism because of the simple copping of the progression, since those tones will fall "outside" the key signature.

In rock and metal, there are some standbys. Dorian forms and blues pentatonics are the obvious ones. Metal players, since they play over such dissonant riffs, will often have deliberately (and similarly) dissonant solos, that don't really sound much like music but which wheedle and shred by like the chugging riffs underneath them. Playing over diatonic progressions in metal or rock, though, neccesitates the use of the proper scale. Your music will sound BEST if you just stick to the melodic and harmonic guns of the piece, and if you're going to go wacky dissonant, have your rhythm underneath you fit it. Your solo and your note choices will only sound as good and appropriate as the chords underneath them.

Moral: Play more rhythm. :p



The Guitar Grimoire is by far the superior series, as it has multiple books and illustrates the relationships without trying to be hip. Too many theory books try to sound like they're written by cool rock dudes, but to be honest theory is an academic consideration and art, and should be treated as such: it is musical education. That being said, the Grimoire series is fabulously organized and elucidated. That is my sole recommendation: nothing comes close to the thoroughness and scope, or clarity, of those books.

EDIT: Sorry about the improvised essay, BTW. I think that will help your questions.

I read that whole post! Good stuff man. I never heard of most of what you were talking about, but I think I get what you're saying. Lol, that's why I don't play jazz. It sounds really hard to play. I'll have to check that out. Pretty much, I'm just wanting to try something new besides power chords and minor pentatonics.

Rounder
11-03-2005, 07:34 PM
I have the guitar grimoire series and its really a great set of books, although it can be overwhelming.

Cain
11-03-2005, 10:53 PM
I read that whole post! Good stuff man. I never heard of most of what you were talking about, but I think I get what you're saying. Lol, that's why I don't play jazz. It sounds really hard to play. I'll have to check that out. Pretty much, I'm just wanting to try something new besides power chords and minor pentatonics.

Your best bet is to learn the major scale, all of its modes, and harmonic minor, and learn the theory behind constructing chords and progressions out of them, in that case.

I was just giving you some examples of how chromatics are used. Melodic rock and metal are generally very ill-suited to the musical use of chromatics, even though certain metal players use them a lot.

Rounder
11-03-2005, 11:32 PM
That's the way I learned. I learned the G Major scale first. I did nothing but write and play in Gmajor/Eminor. I started by learning g major starting at the 3rd fret of the E string. once I had that comfortably i moved to learning the G major scale starting at the 5th fret of the E string, and so on. I did not know at the time that I was learning the modes of the major scale. Although, as of yet, I find it hard to write anything in the other modes. Ionian, and Aeolian I can understand melodically, But the other modes I have a hard time trying to see the music. Maybe because my style of playing is more straightforward, I like the way the major and minor scale resolve, and its easy to grasp the resolved/unresolved concept. From what I understand, the modes are best used when 'vamping' but I can barely get my head around that.

Regarding jazz, Do musicians write music specifically in a given mode (ala mixolodian mode), or is it more for adding color in a composition? and if it is, what are some ground rules for mixing different modes together? Are there any ground rules?
If a composition contains an A major, is it common to use multiple modes in a single measure? When playing over changes, do those changes usually involve playing in a different scale mode? The only jazz I ever hear that play even remotely diatonically is on smooth jazz stations.

Cain
11-04-2005, 01:39 PM
Ionian, and Aeolian I can understand melodically, But the other modes I have a hard time trying to see the music. Maybe because my style of playing is more straightforward, I like the way the major and minor scale resolve, and its easy to grasp the resolved/unresolved concept. From what I understand, the modes are best used when 'vamping' but I can barely get my head around that.

Really? I should think that as such a huge fan of Tool you would have been able to come up with a use for the Phrygian scale. It doesn't work terribly well as a soloing scale, admittedly, but it's great for riff-writing.

Regarding jazz, Do musicians write music specifically in a given mode (ala mixolodian mode), or is it more for adding color in a composition? and if it is, what are some ground rules for mixing different modes together? Are there any ground rules?

When jazz musicians in the 40s composed, they usually had a blues form in mind with an instrumental or vocal melody: they would then proceed to harmonize the melody with various chords. I don't think there were ground rules for composition, just improvisation. Matter of fact, I think jazz is the antithesis of having "ground rules." :p The whole genre (excepting smooth jazz) is designed to accomodate experimentation.

If a composition contains an A major, is it common to use multiple modes in a single measure? When playing over changes, do those changes usually involve playing in a different scale mode?

As I said, jazz soloists target chord tones and not scales when playing over changes. They then incorporate passing tones and chromatics--some of which are diatonic and some which aren't--to lead into them so they're not just playing arpeggios the whole time. In addition, I don't think I've ever heard a jazz song that contained a plain old A major unless it's a fusion composition: normally the chord would be A7, Amaj7, or Am7 or something similar. If it's an A7, then the scales can be all over the place: the form indicates A Mixolydian but as we know from blues it will accommodate minor pentatonic and blues scales rather easily also: jazz guitarists will synthesis scales and lines incorporating all of these options (minor, major, Mixolydian, minor pentatonic, adjacent chromatic tones, major pentatonic, major and minor blues, and chord tones). It requires a lot of knowledge, but ultimately it's all optional: there are no rules.

The only jazz I ever hear that play even remotely diatonically is on smooth jazz stations.

Fusion tends to be very diatonic as well: influenced as it is by rock and with many of the principle artists coming from a rock background, bringing distorted and wailing electrics into the mix, the rhythm and underlying harmonies needed to change substantially to accomodate electric and keyboard virtuosity. In bebop and swing jazz of the '40s and '50s, the guitar would tend to emulate the accents and styles of the clarinet and the saxophone, being as they some of the most expressful instruments in "straight" jazz. But in fusion, the lead instruments are all rock-based (guitars and keyboards) and the rhythms are very rock influenced as well. Hence, fusion still contains changes, but they utilize concepts such as modal interchange (playing unrelated chords based off a note: Amaj7(A major) to G/A (A minor) to C#m9/A (A Lydian) G#dim (A major), would be an example of this principle, albeit a crappy one. They also tend to do a lot of "one chord vamping" where a constant chord is being played and then other band members will harmonize it with their melodies and dictate the form and harmonic contour of the underlying bassline.

Al DiMeola and Frank Gambale play very diatonically, but they do it over the types of chord changes described above. And at other times, they'll just play straight in just one key. The results are jazzy but still very much rock-based.

Moses
11-04-2005, 01:50 PM
Ok, so I was reading Toasters answer about some question about the fifth and seventh chords and stuff, and I didn't really understand the question too well. But, just something I'd like to point out... YOU DO NOT NEED THE FIFTH IN COMPLEX (i.e. not triad) CHORDS! In fact, I like to leave out the fifth as much as possible. Also, the root isn't really necessary in terms of identifying the chord type, although it's generally nice to have (but there are exceptions!) The only notes that really are needed to identify the chord type are the 3rd and 7th. And if you're doing more complex chords, I guess the other notes like 9th's and 11th's. But, as a general rule, the 3rd and 7th are the most important for identifying type.
Do you happen to play Jazz Piano? We eliminate the root and fifth alot in jazz piano, I don't know about guitar.

Cain
11-04-2005, 01:57 PM
Do you happen to play Jazz Piano? We eliminate the root and fifth alot in jazz piano, I don't know about guitar.

Guitar's the same way. Jazz guitarists often play the bare minimum when comping: in a C9 chord, they may only play the seventh and the ninth, for instance. With the fast changes and high level of instrumental activity, the sound gets muddled if guitar players play the whole voicing.

Stormrider
11-04-2005, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=DeusExMachina]If they offer it at your school, I would recommend taking a class. Local community colleges also often offer music theory courses that are open to all people, even non-students. You would probably have to pay for it, but it would be worthwhile. Also, I'm told cyberfret.com is a good resource, although I've never actually used it.

Well unforntuantly thats the problem. We dont realy do any theory at school. But im only in sec 2. Its not realy a class of ppl who love music its more of a class of ppl who chose music over the art class.

But ill give a look at cyberfret. but i meant where is a good place to start example: scales, chords etc..

DeusExMachina
11-04-2005, 03:43 PM
Do you happen to play Jazz Piano? We eliminate the root and fifth alot in jazz piano, I don't know about guitar.
I play some jazz piano, but primarily guitar. I'm not much of a pianist. I also want to start playing/writing jazz stuff for the cello. I think it would be interesting.

Well unforntuantly thats the problem. We dont realy do any theory at school. But im only in sec 2. Its not realy a class of ppl who love music its more of a class of ppl who chose music over the art class.

But ill give a look at cyberfret. but i meant where is a good place to start example: scales, chords etc..
Scales first. Major scale, and the harmonic and natural minor scales. Then, the rest of the modes of the major scale. Then basics of chords, the intervals, what chords are in what key, how to make chords, and so on. See where you go from there.

Stormrider
11-07-2005, 04:42 PM
What does it meen when a song or instrument is in a specific key ?
For example, the song is in the key of E.

DeusExMachina
11-07-2005, 07:19 PM
The key specifies what notes are "in" key. Generally, keys in western music are diatonic, which means having 7 notes total, one for each letter of the musical alphabet (A B C D E F G).

I'm going to just assume we're talking about diatonic scales here, because I don't want to get into more complex stuff.

The name of the key is split into two parts, the tonic note and the scale. The tonic note is the center note, and has a sense of resolution to it. Songs will almost always end on a tonic note chord. The scale is what patterns you take from the tonic. So, a major scale is W W H W W W H. So, E F# G# A B C# D# E. You need to know the intervals of all the 12 notes (remember that E-F and B-C are natural half steps, meaning that there are no sharps or flats between them), and the intervals for the scale that the song is in. Then, you can figure out the notes of the key.

As for an instrument being in a specific key...

Most instruments (and all string instruments) are in concert pitch (C). However, guitar music isn't written in C natural, it's transposed up an octave. This means that when you play a note on the guitar, it sounds an octave lower than it is written on the sheet music. Bass is the same way, but in the bass clef instead of treble.

For instruments that aren't in C, such as horns, the key represents where its tonic is. The easiest key for string instruments is generally C major/A minor, because it has no sharps or flats. However, a horn in, say, Bb, would find Bb major/G minor to be the easiest key to play in. All the music would be transposed up a whole step. So, the notes when played would sound a whole step lower than written. This is also used in the key signature. When there are no sharps or flats in the key signature for a Bb horn, it means they're playing in the key of Bb. The Bb and the Eb are already worked into the key signature. So, the key of C would have two sharps for this horn. An interesting thing is that normally (i.e. in concert pitch), an instrument's key signature can go from 7 flats to 7 sharps. However, since a Bb instrument already has two flats assumed into it, the written key signature can theoretically go from 5 flats to 9 sharps.

Hope that made sense. The instrument bit is kind of confusing, but I can try to clarify if you want more info.

randomthought9
11-07-2005, 10:07 PM
How do you know what note in sheet music is what fret on the guitar? I know the lines on the staff, but I don't know what fret or string they would be.

BludgeonySteve
11-07-2005, 10:23 PM
You have to know the notes on the fretboard. The lines on the staff will yell you which note and you'll have to find that note on the fretboard.. Get a fretboard note chart (or just go A A# B C C# D D# E F G #, although that's annoying to have to do). You'll want to learn which ones are which octaves as well.

This is why I love tab. Reading music for guitar is more effort than i'd like to put in :p

randomthought9
11-07-2005, 10:53 PM
You have to know the notes on the fretboard. The lines on the staff will yell you which note and you'll have to find that note on the fretboard.. Get a fretboard note chart (or just go A A# B C C# D D# E F G #, although that's annoying to have to do). You'll want to learn which ones are which octaves as well.

This is why I love tab. Reading music for guitar is more effort than i'd like to put in :p

Yeah, I learned the fretboard. I'm just trying to learn sheet music, and hopefully apply it to guitar. Octaves, I think I know. Like what I was asking is say I have a C on the staff, which C on the guitar would it be? How would I know? I'm kind of a newb at sheet music, I've alway's used tab. Say this is a treble clef. So that's a C note. But where would it be in tab?


------------------------

-------------------------
O
-------------------------

-------------------------

-------------------------

Here?
E--8----------------

Here?
B---1---------

I'm confused. :confused:

BludgeonySteve
11-07-2005, 11:03 PM
I'm going to need someone to correct me, probably, because I really suck at reading the actual staff but: when the staff goes bellow or above itself, it repeats. Each line or space bellow or above is 2 notes above or bellow the previous one depending on which way you're going. The lowest go bellow the staff and the highest ones go above. It would be E--8 because that's a 2nd octave and 2nd octave goes directly on the staff. lowest would be bellow and 3rd lowest would be above.

Bleh, I bet that's confusing. Somebody explain it better. Maybe with the use of pictures. Pictures are pretty.

Stormrider
11-08-2005, 02:44 PM
The key specifies what notes are "in" key. Generally, keys in western music are diatonic, which means having 7 notes total, one for each letter of the musical alphabet (A B C D E F G).

I'm going to just assume we're talking about diatonic scales here, because I don't want to get into more complex stuff.

The name of the key is split into two parts, the tonic note and the scale. The tonic note is the center note, and has a sense of resolution to it. Songs will almost always end on a tonic note chord. The scale is what patterns you take from the tonic. So, a major scale is W W H W W W H. So, E F# G# A B C# D# E. You need to know the intervals of all the 12 notes (remember that E-F and B-C are natural half steps, meaning that there are no sharps or flats between them), and the intervals for the scale that the song is in. Then, you can figure out the notes of the key.

As for an instrument being in a specific key...

Most instruments (and all string instruments) are in concert pitch (C). However, guitar music isn't written in C natural, it's transposed up an octave. This means that when you play a note on the guitar, it sounds an octave lower than it is written on the sheet music. Bass is the same way, but in the bass clef instead of treble.

For instruments that aren't in C, such as horns, the key represents where its tonic is. The easiest key for string instruments is generally C major/A minor, because it has no sharps or flats. However, a horn in, say, Bb, would find Bb major/G minor to be the easiest key to play in. All the music would be transposed up a whole step. So, the notes when played would sound a whole step lower than written. This is also used in the key signature. When there are no sharps or flats in the key signature for a Bb horn, it means they're playing in the key of Bb. The Bb and the Eb are already worked into the key signature. So, the key of C would have two sharps for this horn. An interesting thing is that normally (i.e. in concert pitch), an instrument's key signature can go from 7 flats to 7 sharps. However, since a Bb instrument already has two flats assumed into it, the written key signature can theoretically go from 5 flats to 9 sharps.

Hope that made sense. The instrument bit is kind of confusing, but I can try to clarify if you want more info.

Maybe i should have asked this before but anyways, i dont realy know what a key is so...im pretty confused about this. So what is a key first of all ?
( sry, i should have asked that in the other post)

I dont realy understand the part about the tonics. Can you explain a little more on that plz ?

Deconstruction
11-08-2005, 02:53 PM
A key is...I guess the pitch essentially.

Doesnt know how to explain it/

DeusExMachina
11-08-2005, 05:52 PM
A key is a way to limit the notes you use. It's a group of notes that, when played in a row, have a sense of fulfillment. I don't really know how to explain it... sorry. Generally, you want to write music within a key and not use notes outside of it, at least until you get the hang of theory.

Tonic is the note with resolution. So, a song generally ends on a tonic chord, because it makes it sound like the song is over. If it ends on a different chord, the song will usually give you the feeling that it's not quite done, and there's something more coming. On any string, play 0 2 4 5 7 9 11 12. Notice how the 12 sounds resolved? That's because it's the tonic. Now, do the same thing, but stop at 11. It should give you a sense that you're not quite "there." That's the gist of tonic notes. Hope that's a bit more clear.

As for sheet music...

---------------------------

---------------------------

---------------------------

---------------------------

---------------------------

Pretend that is the treble clef. I'm going to refer to notes as either on lines or
spaces. Now, if you see a note in the fourth space up, that's an E. You would play the open E string if you saw that. Not sure if you wanted anything else.

Interesting fact: The high E string is actually an octave lower than the fourth space. The sound it gives is equivalent to the first line. But, guitar music is transposed up an octave, so that it can all fit on one staff.

Rounder
11-08-2005, 06:54 PM
Really? I should think that as such a huge fan of Tool you would have been able to come up with a use for the Phrygian scale. It doesn't work terribly well as a soloing scale, admittedly, but it's great for riff-writing.

well, yes the Phrygian scale i do get. I was thinking more of mixolodian, and the other modes with less obvious minor/major sounds.

I guess with jazz its whatever sounds good...I am familiar with the A B A patterns, although honestly when listening to some jazz i hear no discernable patterns.

Stormrider
11-08-2005, 07:22 PM
A key is a way to limit the notes you use. It's a group of notes that, when played in a row, have a sense of fulfillment. I don't really know how to explain it... sorry. Generally, you want to write music within a key and not use notes outside of it, at least until you get the hang of theory.

Tonic is the note with resolution. So, a song generally ends on a tonic chord, because it makes it sound like the song is over. If it ends on a different chord, the song will usually give you the feeling that it's not quite done, and there's something more coming. On any string, play 0 2 4 5 7 9 11 12. Notice how the 12 sounds resolved? That's because it's the tonic. Now, do the same thing, but stop at 11. It should give you a sense that you're not quite "there." That's the gist of tonic notes. Hope that's a bit more clear.

As for sheet music...

---------------------------

---------------------------

---------------------------

---------------------------

---------------------------

Pretend that is the treble clef. I'm going to refer to notes as either on lines or
spaces. Now, if you see a note in the fourth space up, that's an E. You would play the open E string if you saw that. Not sure if you wanted anything else.

Interesting fact: The high E string is actually an octave lower than the fourth space. The sound it gives is equivalent to the first line. But, guitar music is transposed up an octave, so that it can all fit on one staff.


I realize that 0 and 12 on any string is the same note, so does this meen, to make a part complete you have to finish with the same note you started with ?

And another question is that, can a song be written in more then one key ? Like change key in the middle of the song or something...

But besides that thanks... It helped a lot.

DeusExMachina
11-08-2005, 07:39 PM
well, yes the Phrygian scale i do get. I was thinking more of mixolodian, and the other modes with less obvious minor/major sounds.

I guess with jazz its whatever sounds good...I am familiar with the A B A patterns, although honestly when listening to some jazz i hear no discernable patterns.
Mixolydian works well if you want to make the blues melodic. In general, a blues chord progress will be I7 IV7 V7. Now, there is only one naturally occuring dominant chord in a major or minor key (dominant being 1 3 5 b7, which is what those 4 chords are). The mixolydian works perfectly for that, because it has a major 3rd but a flat 7th, so it harmonizes very well. So, switching scales to fit the chord works really well. It's a much more sophisticated approach to the blues (in my opinion, at least). To simplify, so you don't have to shift up and down the neck every time you switch chords, you can stay in the same area but switch the scale. So...

Let's pretend we're doing G major blues. While on the G7 chord, play G mixolydian. While on the C chord, you can play C mixolydian. However, C mixolydian is the same as G dorian (second mode, flat 3 and flat 7). So, instead of shifting up five frets, you can stay where you are but start doing the dorian scale, and focusing around C more than G. When you're on D, you could shift up 7 frets from G to play the D mixolydian, or you could just play G ionian (major). So, knowledge of those three scales can be very helpful for blues, as can knowledge of the minor scales and modes if you want to do blues in a minor key. Other scales work well for other styles. If you want more info, let me know.

I realize that 0 and 12 on any string is the same note, so does this meen, to make a part complete you have to finish with the same note you started with ?

And another question is that, can a song be written in more then one key ? Like change key in the middle of the song or something...

But besides that thanks... It helped a lot.
To answer the first part, in general yes. Not always, but you generally want to end on the tonic note or chord when you finish a song. For classical music, a lot of the instruments don't end on the tonic, but all the instruments together just make one gigantic tonic chord. Also, the melody note (the highest pitched one) should end on the tonic, because it stands out.

As for the second question, yes, a song can change keys. It's called modulating. In formal music theory rules, there are generally structures for modulating, but modern music doesn't follow them as much. Pretty often, rock songs will modulate up a whole step for part of the song. You can also modulate to the dominant key (the fifth). So, from C to G or from G to D. In classical rules, you generally want to modulate to a similar key. The similar keys are keys with either one more accidental, one less accidental, or the relative minor of those. So, if you're in C (no accidentals), you can either go to G (one sharp), F (one flat), A natural minor (no accidentals), D natural minor (one flat), or E natural minor (one sharp). The same rules apply for modulating when you're in a minor key, but modulating to the parallel major is also common (i.e. modulating from D minor to D major).

Bass-AKIRA
11-08-2005, 07:40 PM
woooo long post coming up( taking major music theory in high school, time ot enlighten the young ones with basic theory for ANY instrument[ so there wont be any guitar specific theory elements but stuff you want to know}
( you people better know this)
notes-ABCDEFG- back to A and so on
now... keys are the flats and sharpsof the song
flats BEADGCF
sharps FCGDAEB
if you have a key with one sharp( that one sharp would be F cause its the first in the order just stated) then all F's in the song would be sharp unless other wise stated.

minors are 2 notes down from the Major key... hence C-a and G-e etc.( all minor are written in lower case and Major in higher..case....yeah...)
the minor is based of the major scale( EX: C scale CDEFGABC with no sharps/flats) the minor scale of C(a) would be ABCDEFGA. Minors have the same key signature as their major so the a minor has no sharps or flats.

( well there is some of the answers to soem of the problems i saw in this thread... so for the song " seek an destroy" everything would be exactely the same but it would be based of the a minor scale... so the song in C was based of the notes CDEFGABC and the song in (a) would be bases on ABCDEFGA ( but none of the notes are different see? so the song is the same but it was writtin while metallica was thinking of the (a) minro scale)

more music theory just as a basis. 4/4( its a 4 with a line uder it then another 4 under that but cant really type that) is a time signature... the top # stateshow many of the notes stated by the bottom # fit the 1 measure of the song. the bottom cant really be explained so easily wihthout example.. the bottom 4 in this one means a quarter note. the quarter note is 1/4 of the whole note so 4 of a quarter= 1 whole k? well that means that each measure is a whole note since it takes 4 quarter notes to fill it up k? so EX:

4/4-each measure has 4 quarter notes
2/4- each measure has 2(!!!) quarter notes ( the whole note analagy only counts for the bottom # the top just states how many of that note their should be)
6/8- ok HERE it has to use eigth notes which are 1/2 of a quarter and 1/8 or a whole( hence the name, and any other note name EX: wholenote=2 half notes/4 quarter notes/8 eigth notes/16 sixteinth notes etc.)
so 8= eight notes and the measure consists of 6 of them...
and it goes on.
now once you figure the note values for the measure that imperticular value is each BEAT- the beat is the pulse of the song( notice how on live shows the drumms usualy play 4 cymbol crashes or soemthing. this is the beat of the song... so each EX: quarter has to be made on each of those beats.
k?
well im tired and will plan on returning to finish this post( hopefully in an EDIT)
IF this confuses anyone IGNOIRE IT
if it confuses you when you learn soemthing right you'll be all like( WtF teacher? or soemthing)

DeusExMachina
11-08-2005, 07:49 PM
Glad to see you want to educate. However, please work on clarity in your writing. It was difficult for me to read that. Also, I'm pretty sure most of that was already covered in the thread.

Just one clarification, don't think of minor keys as "two letters down" from the major. That works in theory, but it raises confusion in terms of accidentals (the relative minor of B isn't G, it's G#). If you want to find the relative minor, go three half steps down from the major. That'll cover you each time. However, you'll also want to make sure you're two letters down. That is to say, G# and Ab are the same note. But, the relative minor of B is G# minor, not Ab minor.

paranoid923
11-08-2005, 08:21 PM
After listening to meshuggah, I started wondering about polyrhythms. I think a polyrhythm is like one instrument plays in 3/4 an another in 4/4 making it kind of like 12/4 (am I right?) . However whenever I attempt to make a rhythm like this it ends up like a jumbled mess or sounds just like 4/4 anyways. How would I go about getting that polyrhythmic feel? Any help appreciated.

Note: I'm using 3/4 and 4/4 as an example but I know thats not the only one you can do.

DeusExMachina
11-08-2005, 09:11 PM
After listening to meshuggah, I started wondering about polyrhythms. I think a polyrhythm is like one instrument plays in 3/4 an another in 4/4 making it kind of like 12/4 (am I right?) . However whenever I attempt to make a rhythm like this it ends up like a jumbled mess or sounds just like 4/4 anyways. How would I go about getting that polyrhythmic feel? Any help appreciated.

Note: I'm using 3/4 and 4/4 as an example but I know thats not the only one you can do.
You have the concept correct. The one that Meshuggah uses that's quite impressive is a 4/4 and 23/16 combination. Although my understanding is that polyrhythm purists will claim that Meshuggah doesn't actually use polyrhythms, because the rhythms should never match up, or at least not until the piece ends. I'm not quite sure though, I don't claim to be an expert on them. They're quite difficult to use. I'm trying to write a piece using 3 or 4 different rhythms at once for my english class (don't ask), but it's not going well.

Toaster
11-08-2005, 09:29 PM
You have the concept correct. The one that Meshuggah uses that's quite impressive is a 4/4 and 23/16 combination. Although my understanding is that polyrhythm purists will claim that Meshuggah doesn't actually use polyrhythms, because the rhythms should never match up, or at least not until the piece ends. I'm not quite sure though, I don't claim to be an expert on them. They're quite difficult to use. I'm trying to write a piece using 3 or 4 different rhythms at once for my english class (don't ask), but it's not going well.

Meshuggah definitely use polyrhythms, they just don't use strange time signatures. Usually Meshuggah songs will have an overall time signature of 4/4, the guitars will be playing some odd rhythms that match up when they repeat.

eighty d
11-08-2005, 10:14 PM
minors are 2 notes down from the Major key... hence C-a and G-e etc.( all minor are written in lower case and Major in higher..case....yeah...)
the minor is based of the major scale( EX: C scale CDEFGABC with no sharps/flats) the minor scale of C(a) would be ABCDEFGA. Minors have the same key signature as their major so the a minor has no sharps or flats.

whoa whoa whoa. i know deus already corrected this, but i'm gonna reiterate it because this could seriously screw up someone learning this stuff for the first time.

the relative minor is three half-steps down from the major.

now it's true that if you're thinking diatonically to the major key, you can just go two note names down. but a beginner is probably not gonna think of this automatically. three half-steps is something concrete that works no matter what key you're in, and you see the accidentals.

DeusExMachina
11-08-2005, 10:26 PM
Meshuggah definitely use polyrhythms, they just don't use strange time signatures. Usually Meshuggah songs will have an overall time signature of 4/4, the guitars will be playing some odd rhythms that match up when they repeat.
I agree that they use polyrythms. I was simply stating that I've met purists who don't consider Meshuggah to be "real" polyrhythms, because the time signatures meet up every eight measures, or something like that.

roulette dares 3
11-09-2005, 06:54 AM
what would be a good scale to write melodica death metal to, or maybe power metal. Anything that would be easy to write a catchy solo or lick. I know many power metal bands are influenced by classical music and i have tried to use the harmonic minor scale but found that it can be avery hard scale to use sometimes. Any suggestions?

DeusExMachina
11-09-2005, 02:12 PM
Harmonic and melodic minors. But, if you want to write complex stuff, it's going to take more than just "knowing a scale." To write melodic stuff, you're really going to need knowledge of harmonization and whatnot.

Toaster
11-09-2005, 02:29 PM
I agree that they use polyrythms. I was simply stating that I've met purists who don't consider Meshuggah to be "real" polyrhythms, because the time signatures meet up every eight measures, or something like that.

Heh, take solace in knowing that you are right, and these so called purists are mistaken. :thumb:

Ad Absurdum
11-09-2005, 03:01 PM
After listening to meshuggah, I started wondering about polyrhythms. I think a polyrhythm is like one instrument plays in 3/4 an another in 4/4 making it kind of like 12/4 (am I right?) . However whenever I attempt to make a rhythm like this it ends up like a jumbled mess or sounds just like 4/4 anyways. How would I go about getting that polyrhythmic feel? Any help appreciated.

Note: I'm using 3/4 and 4/4 as an example but I know thats not the only one you can do. No, those are polymeters. Poly means many, that is many meters being played, not rhythms. A polyrhythm would be something like an 8th note triplet being played over normal 8th notes.

To get the polymetric feel, you need to accent the first beat of your bar strongly. For example, if the guitar is changing chords in 3/4 whilst the drums is maintaining a normal 4/4 beat, it might be an idea to emphasize the guitar's chord changes and maybe throw a cymbal hit in at the start of the drums bar of 4/4. Basically, you just need to emphasize the start of the bar if you want to make it obvious. However, the most important factor should be that the music sounds good, not that the reader notices you are using a fancy rhythmic device.

Rounder
11-09-2005, 07:42 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm

wikipedia on polyrhythm. Just note Wikipedia is a user-created information site. Its a good place to start, but it is not the final answer. It doens't go through the same checks that encyclopedias go through. Though it is an excellent source for information, I wouldn't use it for term papers.

roulette dares 3
11-10-2005, 02:10 AM
Harmonic and melodic minors. But, if you want to write complex stuff, it's going to take more than just "knowing a scale." To write melodic stuff, you're really going to need knowledge of harmonization and whatnot.

When you say what notes not to use does that mean to use the tonic notes of a scale such as the root 3rd 4th 5th etc or something else? Can you also explain how i would learn what not to use or is it all a feeling kind of thing?

Edit-I meamt to say root 3rd 5th and 7th

DeusExMachina
11-10-2005, 09:19 PM
Well, you want to play notes that harmonize well, unless you're going for a dissonant sound. But, assuming you want harmony, having the melody use notes in the chord is a good place to start. If you're playing fast stuff, you can use passing tones. Like, if it's a C major chord (C E G), you could do C D E, with the D being a passing tone. Plus, if you want to use complex chords, you can have the melody play the coloring notes, and have the rhythm not quite as complex in terms of chords.

That's just the beginning, of course. There's also things like suspensions, appogiaturas, neighboring tones, and a lot more. But, it would take a long time to explain to you all there is to writing melodic and harmonic music.

Sorry if that wasn't very clear, I'm a little tired.

Rounder
11-10-2005, 09:38 PM
When you say what notes not to use does that mean to use the tonic notes of a scale such as the root 3rd 4th 5th etc or something else? Can you also explain how i would learn what not to use or is it all a feeling kind of thing?

Edit-I meamt to say root 3rd 5th and 7th

well, record a drone note. Play one note over and over, record it, and then find a scale you want to play in, play the 2nd note in the scale, then the third, and so on. you'll find out how each harmony sounds together.

DeusExMachina
11-10-2005, 09:45 PM
Except, when playing a song, you generally won't be playing over a single note. In most songs, you'll be playing over chords, and those chords will change. Although I suppose that would help to get a beginning sense of harmony.

roulette dares 3
11-11-2005, 01:50 AM
Ok well is there anything else i should know about melodic. Im interested in writing melodic such as arch enemy and children of bodom, which i aim for, not exactly by imitating everything they do i also want to incorporate some of my technique but i need to know ecxactly where and how and how to write melodic.

FlyingPaul_83
11-11-2005, 07:27 AM
Ok I know nothing about theory and I would like to learn.

What do I do first?

randomthought9
11-11-2005, 12:20 PM
I've been using musictheory.net. cyberfret.com is good. There's this other site guitarlessonworld.com. I'm pretty sure that's what it is. I forget the exact link, but google "guitar lessons", and you'll find that site. It's a good site to get started, but after that, I don't know. There's this book I wanna get from amazon.com but I have no money. :upset:

DeusExMachina
11-11-2005, 10:56 PM
Ok I know nothing about theory and I would like to learn.

What do I do first?
Talk to me and Spectrum.

Also, internet resources have been listed throughout this thread. The one that comes to mind for me is cyberfret.com. If you can, take a theory course at a local community college or something.