I don't get "endless notes" thing in Jazz

[griffith9]

They just play "da da da X50 times" like bombarding with 10000 notes on their instrument,(even when not improvising, in regular songs)

I play guitar and I'm learning "have you met miss jones" guitar version by Joe Pass
(I wonder if he arranged the tune into guitar????)
when I listen to the original tune(vocal), melodies are clear.
Joe Pass is a genius, but I just don't get it sometimes.


In the song(along with many old old jazz recordings), it often seems like there is no rhythm at all,(though) just endless notes.

I like that there are lots of chords in the song.(13th,#9s..)

when he's soloing in the song, it's blazing fast but it almost doesn't seem musical, it looks like he's hitting quite a few random notes. and it doesn't catch my ear.. not that I don't like Jazz but..

Maybe I feel that way because there's little repetition, or it doesn't have a "hook" like rock would have.


If I play jazz songs on the guitar, anything I need to be aware of, such as
"make your playing style repetitive for the song?" or something?

on old Jazz records, there is a bass playing the same riff over and over, and guitarist/saxophonist would do the "endless notes" solo thing..


I would like to get a feel of that style of playing.(emulating styles of a pop song would be easier but not this)


I think I'm missing the feel of it in Jazz

[spastic]

Well no one says you have to like it. The thing I don't get is why people try to "get into" a style that they don't really like. I pretty much believe that you can aquire a taste for anything, given the right circumstances. Sure, you can force yourself to enjoy jazz, and soloists who play a ton of outside 'random' notes, but why would you want to do that?

However, if you really do want to try to get into that style, that's fine too.

[Flamencology]

Well no one says you have to like it. The thing I don't get is why people try to "get into" a style that they don't really like. I pretty much believe that you can aquire a taste for anything, given the right circumstances. Sure, you can force yourself to enjoy jazz, and soloists who play a ton of outside 'random' notes, but why would you want to do that?

However, if you really do want to try to get into that style, that's fine too.

It's not a question of whether he likes it or not, it's whether or not he can understand what's happening... just because you don't like the sound of a language doesn't mean that the ability to process it is a worthless skill.

And ultimately, personal opinions aren't worth much unless they're informed by a deeper comprehension of the subject - how can you really ever know if you dislike something if you can't express in specific terms what it is that you dislike?

Statements like 'it seems like there is no rhythm at all' or 'hitting quite a few random notes' show that the problem is not necessarily Griffith's subjectivity, but rather, his inability to process - there is nothing random about this music.

[Samuel]

It's not a question of whether he likes it or not, it's whether or not he can understand what's happening... just because you don't like the sound of a language doesn't mean that the ability to process it is a worthless skill.

And ultimately, personal opinions aren't worth much unless they're informed by a deeper comprehension of the subject - how can you really ever know if you dislike something if you can't express in specific terms what it is that you dislike?

Statements like 'it seems like there is no rhythm at all' or 'hitting quite a few random notes' show that the problem is not necessarily Griffith's subjectivity, but rather, his inability to process - there is nothing random about this music.
Usually.

But pretty much my views otherwise.

[Swede in L.A]

You have to realize, when Mr. Pass plays Have you met miss jones, (solo guitar I assume) It's arranged that way....SOLO, meaning, he encompasses all the other instruments in to the guitar.....Jazz is not for everybody, maybe you should stick to something you can hum with your voice......There's a lot of fine pop music for you out there.:rolleyes:

[Krabsworth]

You have to realize, when Mr. Pass plays Have you met miss jones, (solo guitar I assume) It's arranged that way....SOLO, meaning, he encompasses all the other instruments in to the guitar.....Jazz is not for everybody, maybe you should stick to something you can hum with your voice......There's a lot of fine pop music for you out there.:rolleyes:

I could hum the main melody to any jazz song. On good nights I can get Scrapple From Apple down :-|

[Det_Nosnip]

I could probably hum the entireity of "So What?" :lol:

Especially Canonball's solo. That one gets me every time...one of the most musical pieces of improvisation...ever.

[Ned]

There's no question that bop and much bop-derived music makes severe demands on the listener. A flurry of notes in classical and pop music is usually merely a scale or arpeggio or simple pattern and can be understood gesturally, so to speak, or as a gestalt. Bop in contradistinction requires that you follow the line.

Bop is similar in this respect, in fact, to classical Indian music (which might account for Coltrane's interest). Since classical Indian music has only vestigial harmony to distract you and simple instrumentation and form, it might actually be worthwhile to try first to understand it, as a sort of exercise in musical comprehension, and then go back to bop.

[Frankenstrat]

Its not just "endless notes" hes playing a solo over a form. If you get a copy of the music and train your ear you can listen and follow along on a lead sheet

[halfdeadhippo]

My guitar teacher told me a story at my most recent lesson regarding his experience with listening to John Coltrane. To summarize: he never used to think Coltrane had anything going except technicality. Then, he went to college, trained his ears a bit, and suddenly he could hear the chord changes in the solos and he realized that Coltrane had a lot more going on than first meets the ears. I still can't hear what my teacher's talking about, so I can't explain it any better. All I'm saying is that what seems like an endless fury of notes at first usually has something deeper going on.

[Krabsworth]

My guitar teacher told me a story at my most recent lesson regarding his experience with listening to John Coltrane. To summarize: he never used to think Coltrane had anything going except technicality. Then, he went to college, trained his ears a bit, and suddenly he could hear the chord changes in the solos and he realized that Coltrane had a lot more going on than first meets the ears. I still can't hear what my teacher's talking about, so I can't explain it any better. All I'm saying is that what seems like an endless fury of notes at first usually has something deeper going on.


'Trane was known for his flowing arpeggio solos.

[Ned]

'Trane was known for his flowing arpeggio solos.
Yeah well, I probably shouldn't have dragged him in. It just confuses things. Most bop soloists play horizontally. Coltrane tried to play horizontally and vertically at the same time.

[namesareoverrated]

Alternately, you could not play fast. Any good jazz musician has two things going on when he or she approaching or in a solo: individual style and solo direction.

Individual style is the bulk of what we're talking about here. Playing a lot of really fast notes is something that many players of all instruments do, but only really good players do it because it's a tool of expression. Some soloists don't play tons of notes -- Miles Davis, for instance, could really slow things down and milk every note he played. Others prefer to play very quickly, and that's cool too. To each his own, and while you benefit most by learning from all kinds of players, you don't have to play like them.

Solo direction is what separates someone playing an instrument from someone making music. No matter how fast or slow someone talks, if they don't have anything interesting to say, no one will listen to them. On the other hand, jazz legends are legends precisely because they had some amazing things to say. Good luck learning the language.

[spastic]

It's not a question of whether he likes it or not, it's whether or not he can understand what's happening... just because you don't like the sound of a language doesn't mean that the ability to process it is a worthless skill.

And ultimately, personal opinions aren't worth much unless they're informed by a deeper comprehension of the subject - how can you really ever know if you dislike something if you can't express in specific terms what it is that you dislike?

Statements like 'it seems like there is no rhythm at all' or 'hitting quite a few random notes' show that the problem is not necessarily Griffith's subjectivity, but rather, his inability to process - there is nothing random about this music.



I definitely disagree. Knowing why you like or dislike something is not all that important. If I hear a piece of music and don't like it, whether or not I figre out why is of very little importance; I still won't like it. I might appreciate it more, and the ability to comprehend the music can be a useful tool for future use, but it has no effect on your enjoyment of the piece.

The romantic, immediate emotional reaction that I have towards a piece of music (or any art form) is more important to me than the classic, underlying form. Of course, my favorite songs are enjoyable on both levels, but I rarely listen to songs that only have a classic appeal but fall short in the romantic aspect.

[spastic]

You have to realize, when Mr. Pass plays Have you met miss jones, (solo guitar I assume) It's arranged that way....SOLO, meaning, he encompasses all the other instruments in to the guitar.....Jazz is not for everybody, maybe you should stick to something you can hum with your voice......There's a lot of fine pop music for you out there.:rolleyes:


God damn I wish I had the giant :rolleyes: smilie that is vomitting a thousand more :rolleyes: smilies. This is a terrible view to have on music

[Swede in L.A]

God damn I wish I had the giant :rolleyes: smilie that is vomitting a thousand more :rolleyes: smilies. This is a terrible view to have on music

This is what you wrote....And your point is?

"Well no one says you have to like it. The thing I don't get is why people try to "get into" a style that they don't really like. I pretty much believe that you can aquire a taste for anything, given the right circumstances. Sure, you can force yourself to enjoy jazz, and soloists who play a ton of outside 'random' notes, but why would you want to do that?

However, if you really do want to try to get into that style, that's fine too."

[spastic]

You were making an insulting post towards a style of music and to the thread starter. I was pointing out my views on aquired tastes and its relevance towards music. What's your point?

[Swede in L.A]

In different words, you were basically saying the same thing. was my point!

[HeatherHaze]

I appreciate the skill required to play "endless notes" in jazz. I've been known to run a few licks myself, when the mood is right. ;) The players I really respect, however, are those who say a lot with just a few notes. Miles Davis was a master of this kind of minimalist expression. B.B. King also comes to mind.

"Music is the space between the notes."

Jazz doesn't have to always be a deeply intellectual exercise, despite what many jazz-heads want you to believe. Jazz comes from blues, after all, and blues is all about feeling. Take away all the fast notes, syncopated rhythms, and 13th chords, and you find a framework of blues hiding underneath. As you listen to those "endless notes," see if you can uncover this basic framework and suddenly the music will make a lot more sense.

Often (but not always), you can find the root by listening to the first bass note of each measure. The bass may wander all over the place, but usually it returns to the root at the start of each change.

Listen very intently to the first part of a jazz song. This is usually where the structure of the song, both melodically and rhythmically, is laid out. If you are very attentive, you will be able to keep this structure in mind when the soloists take off. Without an idea of the initial structure of the song, a lot of jazz may sound chaotic and very difficult (if not impossible) to understand. No matter how crazy the musicians get, however, they should still be holding to that underlying framework.

As long as you can follow the pattern of the song, you are "in" and the music makes sense. Lose your place, whether you're just listening or playing a solo, and you're toast. In that case, you've got to just "fake it 'til you make it." Go back to listening to the bass and try to hear the "blues" beneath the jazz.

)-|-( Heather Haze

[jam9383]

Jazz comes from blues,
Not exactly,there maybe a blues influence but that could be because they come from the same musical tradition

[Aukai]

Jazz came out of african beats and euro instrumentation.

[Amit]

There's no question that bop and much bop-derived music makes severe demands on the listener. A flurry of notes in classical and pop music is usually merely a scale or arpeggio or simple pattern and can be understood gesturally, so to speak, or as a gestalt. Bop in contradistinction requires that you follow the line.

Bop is similar in this respect, in fact, to classical Indian music (which might account for Coltrane's interest). Since classical Indian music has only vestigial harmony to distract you and simple instrumentation and form, it might actually be worthwhile to try first to understand it, as a sort of exercise in musical comprehension, and then go back to bop.

Very well put :-)

Although, I thought Coltrane's interest in Indian music was more of spiritual interest.

[Ned]

Very well put :-)Thanks.

Although, I thought Coltrane's interest in Indian music was more of spiritual interest.

Okay, it would not seem completely to account for Coltrane's interest, but the one may have followed from the other, as in George Harrison's case. I don't actually know.

[unclebobscircus]

You have to realize, when Mr. Pass plays Have you met miss jones, (solo guitar I assume) It's arranged that way....SOLO, meaning, he encompasses all the other instruments in to the guitar.....Jazz is not for everybody, maybe you should stick to something you can hum with your voice......There's a lot of fine pop music for you out there.:rolleyes:
Do I detect a wee bit of elitism?

[dj_ando]

"Music is the space between the notes."
indeed! as they say, there is no sound without silence, and no silence without sound.

[Lady Lex]

thing with bop aswell: its moreso playing 'outside' the melody, rather than inside. So the notes may sound repetitive, but they are evolving over the many different harmonies and chordal changes that are happening. And unlike an amped guitar, wind instruments (horns) have a difficult time in holding long notes AND keep it interesting.. so the seemingly repetitive notes help here. Man.. I love jazz.. Who cares if one is elitist? Id rather be considered an elitist any day of the week than to never behold the beauty that is jazz. Tho Swede - that was just damn unnecessary.

And that statement: Music is the space between the notes is a very Herbie Hancock comment :)

[boog3ee]

Very well put :-)

Although, I thought Coltrane's interest in Indian music was more of spiritual interest.

Coltrane's interest in Indian music was the begining to what was refered to as modal jazz, which is basically rather than basing the song on a complicated chord progression it is based on one or two chords that signify a certain mode which the soloist uses for his melodic solo. (sorry if im simplifying things a bit)
Now, eastern music in general, which includes indian and middle eastern (arabic) music is based on this theory; a melodic line structured over a certain mode, the effect of this is repetative points of reference to the original root of the mode and it's immediate harmonic points (3rd and 5th), this repitition creates a hypnotic affect which is why the music usually feels very spiritual...
By the way, since im an Arabic musician, and although im a huge fan of coltrane, i believe he completely missed this point, which rendered his experiment in modal jazz rather unsettling and hard to follow... modal soloing can be infinately more captivating and rapturous...but thats only my opinion...
cheers!

[moogoogaipan]

another thing that a lot of you haven't mentioned is that jazz's audience has decreased since the 40's. Because of end of the swing era and the birth of rock, Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie took the music in a new direction. Bop was born, not for the masses, but as a musicians music to allow for free expression and virtuostic playing.

In the words of Wynton Marsalis, "You have to go to the music, it's not going to come to you."

[Strumpeband]

thing with bop aswell: its moreso playing 'outside' the melody, rather than inside. So the notes may sound repetitive, but they are evolving over the many different harmonies and chordal changes that are happening. And unlike an amped guitar, wind instruments (horns) have a difficult time in holding long notes AND keep it interesting.. so the seemingly repetitive notes help here. Man.. I love jazz.. Who cares if one is elitist? Id rather be considered an elitist any day of the week than to never behold the beauty that is jazz. Tho Swede - that was just damn unnecessary.

And that statement: Music is the space between the notes is a very Herbie Hancock comment :)


Those who like jazz and/or play jazz aren't considered elistist from the beginning. It's thanks to comments such as Swede's we/you get such remarks.

[Ned]

thing with bop aswell [sic]: its moreso [sic] playing 'outside' the melody, rather than inside. So the notes may sound repetitive, but they are evolving over the many different harmonies and chordal changes that are happening. And unlike an amped guitar, wind instruments (horns) have a difficult time in holding long notes AND keep it interesting.. so the seemingly repetitive notes help here.

I find this last sentence a very odd one. The electric guitar sustains more than the steel-string acoustic (which, in contradistinction to the venerable and much more musical classical guitar, was essentially invented in the twenties to enable dance-band guitarists to be heard above, or rather within, the din--and it was usually still too soft), it has nowhere near the sustaining power of a wind instrument. Yes, beginning in the middle sixties rock guitarists either played at tremendous volume or used special devices to allow it to sustain much longer, but (fusion aside) these were rock guitarists, not jazz guitarists. Moreover, the jazz instrumentalist in question here is Joe Pass, who was a guitarist. Neither do wind players "have a difficult time" keeping long notes "interesting". Unlike the typical MIDI electronic keyboard erstatz horn section idiot from the eighties and beyond, real wind players almost always crescendo or decrescendo or both on long notes. They also add vibrato at varying rate and depth.

(By the way, there are no such words as "aswell" and "moreso".)

[Lady Lex]

Whichever way you enjoy pulling it Ned. Im not one for details - I figure peeps on here are smart enough to automatically assume that volume and texture is necessary - especially in long notes. And as youve so gathered - I wasnt referring to Joe Pass: gee.. didnt know I had to. I was thinking of long notes on horns because anytime Bebop or Hardbop enters the picture, my thoughts are immediately on Trane. Enjoy being a vocab nazi. Personally, I think theres more in the world but you are right: Words are extremely interesting. :)

[Ned]

Whichever way you enjoy pulling it Ned. Im not one for details - I figure peeps on here are smart enough to automatically assume that volume and texture is necessary - especially in long notes. And as youve so gathered - I wasnt referring to Joe Pass: gee.. didnt know I had to. I was thinking of long notes on horns because anytime Bebop or Hardbop enters the picture, my thoughts are immediately on Trane. Enjoy being a vocab nazi. Personally, I think theres more in the world but you are right: Words are extremely interesting. :)

I'll remove the qualifications and make it simple for you then: You've got it backward: Winds sustain; guitars don't.