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View Full Version : Feel concept: Forward motion vs Backwards Motion


Det_Nosnip
10-18-2005, 03:07 AM
So I was pondering the nature of swing time earlier, and I came up with a slightly different way of viewing the whole situation. I was thinking about what swinging really meant as far as the whole scheme of things...what exactly it is that you're manipulating. The difference between swung time and regular time is that in swung time, the notes are "rounder," right? Spread further apart. Rather than 8th notes, they are triplets. Now....here's where things get a little abstract. When you say that they are further apart....what exactly are they further apart FROM? The obvious answer would be "straight time." However...from what pulse?

In warping the distance between notes, you create an artificial pulse that lands at a given tempo. This can result from one of two different alterations: a faster tempo is slowed down (by increasing the distance), OR a slower tempo is effectively sped up (by DECREASING the distance). Although the beats are landing in roughly the same spot, you can have two very different feels (in fact, you can have MILLIONS, really....but let's keep it simple for now). What these different types of warping result in are what I would call Forward motion, or Backwards motion.

What I call forward motion I suppose would normally be termed "ahead of the beat." This is a very energetic, agitated, aggressive feel, and works well in heavy music. I think that alot of people who play heavy music naturally play this way...however, because it is a natural thing and not something that they (or their bandmates) may be aware of, it often results in time fluctuations...resulting in the ever common complaint that the drummer is "rushing."

What I call "backwards" motion would normally be called "behind the beat." This feel is much more laid back, however it can also be extremely heavy, as classically applied in some of the old 70's heavy funk bands ala Parliament, etc. In what some would consider an unexpected connection, I've also heard this feel used by the doom/death metal band, Hypocrisy (the song I'm referring to is "Eraser.")

I've also heard combinations of the two feels. One feel that I nicknamed the "drunk" feel is common in alot of swung blues and blues shuffles, especially the Texas Blues (think: SRV). The best way that I can describe it is a backwards motion on the downbeats (1 & 3) combined with a forward motion on the backbeats (2 & 4). The effect is literally...well, it feels DRUNK. Another classic example of this feel is "Roadhouse Blues" by the Doors...which the band pulled off stunningly, no doubt, by actually playing it intoxicated. :lol: (to be honest, I don't know about the group as a whole....Morrison would definitely be tanked when performing it, though).

I've tried experimenting with this groove style and kind of come up with my own feel that I would describe as intensely agitated and startling. I use it on an odd meter (7/16) track, and essentially what I'm doing is sinking deep into beat 1, and snapping quickly up for the "backbeats" (landing on beat 5). The effect is that the music feels like it's dragging you down...and then kicking you back up, HARD. :lol:

Anyways, this is just a concept that I've been experimenting with and thinking upon lately, so I thought I'd share my thoughts with you guys. I'll try and get some video examples recorded later this week, although I'm a bit on the busy side unfortunately, so for now...something to think about. :)

Vandle
10-18-2005, 05:39 AM
Sounds interesting, I think i know where your going with this but some audio or tab would clear things up.

Det_Nosnip
10-18-2005, 10:03 AM
I'm afraid a tab would do nothing to clear things up. :) I'll try and get some audio up, though.

Jezen
10-18-2005, 11:08 AM
I think it really comes down to the way you think about it, and the way you sing along to it in your head. For example when a swing pattern is sped up, you think of it in a different way. You don't think spang-spang-a-lang, just at a faster tempo, it turns into spang-a-lang--spang-a-lang etc. The same applies for anything. It is very easy to realise this if for instance you are playing a 5 stroke roll to vic firth's progression system. It sounds different after a while.
You are definately correct Ted.

Det_Nosnip
10-18-2005, 01:19 PM
Hmm...I'm not sure how that applies to what I'm talking about, though. :confused:

I'm focusing more on implied feels than different tempos...IE what makes a groove that is behind the beat feel "slow," and one that is ahead of the beat feel "quick." It came down, for me, to distances between the notes...when a groove is behind the beat, the notes are spread further apart; when a groove is "ahead" of the beat, the notes are closer together. And yet, they follow relatively the same pulse...

Jezen
10-18-2005, 01:52 PM
Ah right sorry, I must have been in a hurry.

TTTSNB
10-18-2005, 08:07 PM
yeah, I'm actually interesting in the fact that I typically get criticized for playing behind the beat.

J0llyhunter
10-18-2005, 08:46 PM
but wouldn't staying slightly ahead of the beat, in this case, shortening the NORMAL distance of each beat, mean that you're eventually rushing? i mean, how does that work? cause how do you end up staying relatively close to the original tempo, wouldn't you have to pull back at some point?

TTTSNB
10-18-2005, 08:47 PM
but wouldn't staying slightly ahead of the beat, in this case, shortening the NORMAL distance of each beat, mean that you're eventually rushing? i mean, how does that work? cause how do you end up staying relatively close to the original tempo, wouldn't you have to pull back at some point?
What he means is, you stay at a tempo thats very slightly higher then the other instrument's tempo, keeping the same tempo throughout, so you won't actually rush.

xizoesira
10-19-2005, 01:13 AM
I think I have an example of the 'backwards motion' you talked about, if I'm following you correctly.

Electric Wizard - Funeralopolis

The drummer always seems just a stitch off in this song, but to good effect.

Seafroggys
10-19-2005, 01:25 AM
i don't know if this relates to this idea, but one thing i've noticed is that at any given tempo, you can provide a 'fast' song and a 'slow' song. A driving metal sound at 90 bpm, and a piano ballad at 90 bpm are the EXACT same tempo, but the metal song seems faster.

Det_Nosnip
10-19-2005, 02:01 AM
Exactly. Learning to be able to play both is very important, because otherwise you may end up using the wrong one, ala classic "metal drummer power ballad." :lol:

Det_Nosnip
10-19-2005, 02:10 AM
but wouldn't staying slightly ahead of the beat, in this case, shortening the NORMAL distance of each beat, mean that you're eventually rushing? i mean, how does that work? cause how do you end up staying relatively close to the original tempo, wouldn't you have to pull back at some point?

Well....that's where it gets complicated. You see, in order for you to get the feel right, you have to keep track of where the actual pulse is....and deliberately play around it. It's kind of hard to explain, really...when I'm doing it, I basically hear the real pulse in my head, and play the felt pulse off of that. It sometimes helps to practice it with a metronome...try to work on actually grooving behind or ahead of the click without going out of time (that is, remaining consistently off, in the same spot....).

Bone
10-19-2005, 02:12 AM
I think Ted is talking about the nuances in playing found between the internal (absolute) time and the played (percieved) time.

The differences found between them and how altering those differences may lead to different feels of playing.

Det_Nosnip
10-19-2005, 02:13 AM
YES! Exactly. Thanks, Jos..err...."Bone." ;)

J0llyhunter
10-19-2005, 06:25 PM
hmm, so you mean, playing slightly ahead of/behind the click, but the distance of each beat of the played time is actually identical to the click?

i sorta tabbed it out, i know it's very subtle, and nowhere near as drastic as the tab.

do you mean (behind the beat):

click |o------o------o------o------o------o------|
played|o-------o-------o-------o-------o-------|

or:

click |o-------o-------o-------o-------o-------|
played|-o-------o-------o-------o-------o-------|

Det_Nosnip
10-20-2005, 07:32 AM
Hmm....those aren't really lining up properly....try using font=courier tags.

One way of thinking about it is to be playing flams against the pulse, if that makes any sense.

ThugsRook
10-28-2005, 09:38 PM
i think what you are trying to describe i call "stretching the click".

by riding the front end of the click your playing will seem excited and slightly faster.

by riding the back end of the click you will create a feeling of slow anticipation.

your tempo is straight but your not playing exactly on the click. by mixing the 2 together you can create some very interesting "feels" for lack of a better word.

example: start a fill on the butt end of the click but end it on the front end of the click. (youll have to play the fill a hair fast to do this)

this is the sort of thing many ppl try to explain as playing exactly on the click isnt always correct. the human element creates emotion thru the use of "stretching the click".

:wave:

Det_Nosnip
10-28-2005, 11:09 PM
Exactly. This is also another way of explaining how you can play to a click yet still not sound like a robot.

I haven't quite figured myself out about the swing analogy, however...I think that what I was actually going for was..well...swinging different size notes other than triplets. It's not something that you could ever logically notate, really...but you know how alot of music is swung in different ways? Reggae, trad. jazz, New Orleans 2nd line, Art Blakey style hard bop, classic rock, James Brown style funk....all of these are swung, but not in the same way at all....

As for how this ties back into forward/backwards motion...I'm not quite sure yet. I'll have to ponder that one a bit...here's something to think about:

If you allow for all artificial subdivisions and have a little bit of fun with metric modulation, (including really bizzare unused ones that would fall inbetween triplets & 16th notes, for example), then ANYTHING can be notated at ANY tempo.

ThugsRook
10-29-2005, 09:50 AM
Exactly. This is also another way of explaining how you can play to a click yet still not sound like a robot.
it also explains how you can play to a CD and still be way off.
in order to play to a cd correctly you need play all intonations the same way as the original drummer or you will sound "off"... not an easy thing to do.