best jazz rhythm section [Archive] - Music & Musician Forums

Bryan Blakey

10-18-2005, 02:00 AM

Oh, hands down Tony, Ron, and Herbie. They were an unbeatable team and it's unfortunate Tony has passed, because the musicianship between the three of them never was or will be surpassed. I have learned so much about playing jazz by just listening to those three together. It doesn't matter who else they were playing with, whether it was Miles/Wayne, Wayne/Freddie, George Goleman/Freddie, just Freddie, Wynton Marsalis... well I could go on for about a page but you get the idea... they were always amazing and never ceased to use every ounce of musicianship within themselves at every moment of their playing. There have been (and are) other great rhythm sections, like the aforementioned Standards Trio, and of course Paul Chambers/Jimmy Cobb/Bill Evans of Kind of Blue (my personal favorite of that era is the rhythm section of Milestones, with Paul, Red Garland and Philly Joe Jones), but no three (or four or five or six) musicians have ever been as amazing both technically and musically as Tony, Ron, and Herbie. To me, they are THE rhythm section.

dj_ando

10-18-2005, 02:13 AM

good answer :)

as a drummer, listening to the way tony plays at just 18 years of age is nothing short of breathtaking. the way those guys interact with each other is truly phenomenal. just listening to four & more, and the way they can communicate so damn well when playing insanely up-tempo stuff is inspiring. they've got such a unique bonding, where you'd think they were triplets, they just know so much about each other's playing and they're all so aware of going on.

have you seen the 'one night with blue note' 1985 reunion concert? the three great men play a great rendition of cantaloupe island. all still in great shape too!

Bryan Blakey

10-18-2005, 02:18 AM

Yup, I have it on DVD :) Great concert.

Tony at 18?! That's nothing. He was playing professionally with Jackie McLean at 16. Hell, he was composing his own music and leading all-star groups when he was 17. I'm a drummer as well and whenever I read about Tony's life I always feel like I'm way behind, haha.

Caleb3221

10-18-2005, 05:44 AM

DemBonez

10-18-2005, 06:45 AM

Billy Hart, Lonnie Liston Smith, Richard Davis, Reggie Workman, and Nathaniel Bettis.

dj_ando

10-18-2005, 07:40 AM

dembonez, can you recommend an album?

DemBonez

10-18-2005, 11:47 AM

Det_Nosnip

10-18-2005, 12:17 PM

I agree completely Bryan. Tony, Ron, Herbie together never fail to blow me away. Though, I also have to give credit to a lot of Elvin's playing, there is some stuff of his that just can't be touched in terms of sheer intensity, on his stuff with Garrison/Tyner(And mabye a differnt rhythym section, I have a few recordings that I really like but don't know the name or the players of)

Yeah, Elvin was a phenomenal player. His work with Coltrane is some of the best jazz drumming, period.

Tony was another incredible one. Speaking of which...have you guys seen those old videos of the classic quartet on drummerworld.com?

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Tony_Williams.html

Amazing stuff.

Another rhythm section that I've really been digging lately that I don't think is given its due is the Bill Evans trio. I bought "Explorations" the other day, and am loving it....Bill of course was an amazing musician, and Paul Motian and Scott Lafaro ain't exactly scabbs at their respective instruments, either. I definitely recommend you guys check it out. :)

jazzfunkboy

10-18-2005, 01:26 PM

my friend showed me mccoy tyner's rythem section for one of his cds- ray brown, elvin jones, and mccoy tyner. it dont get much better. check out "the real mccoy".

anything with jaco is absolutely badass. the rythem section on giant steps is pretty sweet, paul chambers is a machine.

Fatback

10-18-2005, 01:56 PM

Bill Evans Trio......ANY incarnation.

metBANS

10-18-2005, 03:00 PM

Tony Williams - Drums
Horace Silver - Keys
Joe Negri - Guitar
Mingus - Bass

Krabsworth

10-18-2005, 03:39 PM

Count Basie definately.

Samuel

10-18-2005, 04:03 PM

Bill Evans Trio......ANY incarnation.
I'd agree to that, in principle.

Also, the Williams-Carter-Hancock set is amazing, as was Metheny-Holland-Haynes. Dave Holland's various quartet and quintet recordings usually sound superb as well.

dj_ando

10-18-2005, 09:07 PM

Karma by Pharoah Sanders. The ambiance of sound those guys achieve is just surreal to me.

I've never really been big on bop/hard-bop rhythm sections, and because of that I can't really assess them. I will say that if you like the Jarrett/DeJohnette/Peacock trio you'd like Charles Lloyd's '60s quartet. It was Lloyd on Saxophone/Flute, Jarrett on piano, DeJohnette on drums, and McBee on bass.

yeah i really dig the charles lloyd stuff. i've only got one album - forest flower, but i really love it. really hip stuff, when i first heard about them i was really surprised that a jazz group could play with the likes of janis, hendrix, all the big 60s rock acts.

pipe

10-20-2005, 11:23 AM

what about the Hancock-Clarke-Hakim section at montreaux?

Caleb3221

10-20-2005, 02:30 PM

Yes, Paul Motion is a player I have been getting into a lot lately, both his stuff with Bill Evans and his solo work I am in love with.

flyguy

10-20-2005, 03:16 PM

Chick Corea
Stanley Clarke
Airto Moreira

Most tatseful rhythm section.

Grant

10-20-2005, 04:45 PM

I never really liked Chick Corea. His playing is just too, well it just annoys me.

Lydisk

10-20-2005, 04:51 PM

i agree...he is kinda childish

Samuel

10-20-2005, 05:09 PM

I never really liked Chick Corea. His playing is just too, well it just annoys me.
I find his playing to be sort of. . .meh. Bland, if you will. Not terrible, and it works, but compare it to someone like Tyner or Evans. . .

Now, I hate most of his compositions that I've heard of him.

Bryan Blakey

10-20-2005, 05:12 PM

Chick Corea
Stanley Clarke
Airto Moreira

Most tatseful rhythm section.

I would disagree and say that him and Stanley are better with Lenny White and Al DiMeola (Return to Forever). They're really powerful together.

DemBonez

10-20-2005, 05:40 PM

I find his playing to be sort of. . .meh. Bland, if you will. Not terrible, and it works, but compare it to someone like Tyner or Evans. . .

Evans was like the whitest jazz pianist ever. Corea was more bland than Evans? Sure, if you were to say someone like Peterson or Tatum, then I would tend to agree, but Evans?

I don't understand why so many people rag on Corea out of the post-Tyner/Evans pianists. To me, he's been side-by-side with Jarrett for the best of the bunch.

I would disagree and say that him and Stanley are better with Lenny White and Al DiMeola (Return to Forever). They're really powerful together.

Airto, Corea, and Clarke IS Return to Forever. Problem, to me, was that Stanley wasn't any good with his upright.

spastic

10-20-2005, 05:59 PM

Not that this is an answer to the best rhythm section, but I was very very impressed when I saw Dave Holland play with Steve Nelson (vibes) and Nate Smith (drums). They were incredibly tight and innovative. Most of the time I found myself listening to them instead of the soloist (although if Chris Potter had been there it would have been different). I hope these guys keep playing together

flyguy

10-20-2005, 06:12 PM

Airto, Corea, and Clarke IS Return to Forever. Problem, to me, was that Stanley wasn't any good with his upright.

I saw Stanley with Bela Fleck and Jean Luc a couple weeks ago, and his upright performance was incredible. I dont know how you could say that.

Samuel

10-20-2005, 08:15 PM

Evans was like the whitest jazz pianist ever. Corea was more bland than Evans? Sure, if you were to say someone like Peterson or Tatum, then I would tend to agree, but Evans?

I don't understand why so many people rag on Corea out of the post-Tyner/Evans pianists. To me, he's been side-by-side with Jarrett for the best of the bunch.

Ehh, I wouldn't say he can touch Jarrett. I also wouldn't say he can touch Tatum or Peterson either.

I've always been into Evans, but I can see why some wouldn't be. Likewise, I can see why some would be into Corea, despite my not really enjoying his style. Just goes to show that sometimes trying to discuss music is a bit pointless, once you hit the core of taste.

Caleb3221

10-20-2005, 08:44 PM

I really enjoy some of Corea's older stuff. Now he sings, now he sobs is an album that I quite like in some bits. He has some great solos that I have heard, though his style isn't always amazing. I can also see why many would dislike him, and also why people could dislike Evans.

Most of Corea's fusiony stuff I am not a fan of. I am going to see him with Touchstone in a few weeks, I'll report on how it goes, but I honestly don't have terribly high expectations. While it will probably be quite advanced techincally, musicaly it will probably be pretty boring.

Look at me, I can't spell today.

amp7325

10-20-2005, 08:56 PM

my friend showed me mccoy tyner's rythem section for one of his cds- ray brown, elvin jones, and mccoy tyner. it dont get much better. check out "the real mccoy".

Yeah..... I sent that CD. Another rhythm section that I think is AMAZING is on Joe Henderson's "Inner Urge," which is my favorite jazz CD as of now. McCoy Tyner on piano, Bob Cranshaw on bass, Elvin Jones on drums. It's amazing.

DemBonez

10-20-2005, 09:39 PM

Ehh, I wouldn't say he can touch Jarrett. I also wouldn't say he can touch Tatum or Peterson either.

I've always been into Evans, but I can see why some wouldn't be. Likewise, I can see why some would be into Corea, despite my not really enjoying his style. Just goes to show that sometimes trying to discuss music is a bit pointless, once you hit the core of taste.

It all depends on my mood. I find Jarrett's solo concerts amazing, but his old group recordings were decent at best. Both had their time that they came out with nothing, Corea was busy doing Elektric Band stuff and Jarrett had muscle fatigue. I really like both their work today.

As for Tatum and Peterson, no one has come close to what Tatum has done, and very few have the versatillity that Peterson has.

And I like Evans, it's just his whole approach is to be white in his playing. I think he has a couple moments of swing in his approach (I can't think of any off the top of my head), but for the most part he disregarded it in his music. Corea just has a lot more flare to his playing. Calling him bland compared to Evans is just wrong.

Ned

10-21-2005, 12:07 AM

It all depends on my mood. I find Jarrett's solo concerts amazing, but his old group recordings were decent at best. Both had their time that they came out with nothing, Corea was busy doing Elektric Band stuff and Jarrett had muscle fatigue. I really like both their work today.

As for Tatum and Peterson, no one has come close to what Tatum has done, and very few have the versatillity that Peterson has.

And I like Evans, it's just his whole approach is to be white in his playing. I think he has a couple moments of swing in his approach (I can't think of any off the top of my head), but for the most part he disregarded it in his music. Corea just has a lot more flare to his playing. Calling him bland compared to Evans is just wrong.

Bill Evans is simply one of the five or so most important jazz pianists who ever lived. There's Art Tatum, Bud Powell, Bill Evans, and only a few others. To compare Corea to Bill Evans is absurd. Corea doesn't rank anywhere near.

Corea tends to be too deliberate and plodding, but when he's on and playing real jazz, as he was when I saw him a few years ago and as he was when he recorded "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" (as someone mentioned above--thanks), he can be quite enjoyable.

Bill Evans, on the other hand, was THE MAN--and stop with the racist slurs, please. Thank you.

jam9383

10-21-2005, 11:57 AM

Bill Evans, on the other hand, was THE MAN--and stop with the racist slurs, please. Thank you.
Swing is deeply rooted in african traditions. I dont think that was really anywhere near being racist. stop being so pc and calling any little word that refers to race as being racists.

DemBonez

10-21-2005, 12:49 PM

Swing is deeply rooted in african traditions. I dont think that was really anywhere near being racist. stop being so pc and calling any little word that refers to race as being racists.

I actually have no idea what he means by racial slurs. No where did I imply that swing was the music of black people, or vice-versa. I said his music was white. That says nothing of a race, it says everything about his piano playing. It's not a revolutionary idea to look at music in a color sense. Pick up a dictionary and look for the musical definition of the word "white".

Merriam-Wesbter says:
"of, relating to, or constituting a musical tone quality characterized by a controlled pure sound, a lack of warmth and color, and a lack of resonance"

If you are complaining something else is a racial slur, then please tell me.

Ned

10-22-2005, 12:14 AM

Okay, if that's what you meant by "white", I simply misinterpreted you. Sorry.

(You will note, however, that jam98786535673 appears also to have misinterpreted you in roughly the same way--the difference being that jam4897687340232 thinks it's perfectly all right to use a race label freely and liberally as a synonym for "bad").

Det_Nosnip

10-22-2005, 12:25 AM

I actually have no idea what he means by racial slurs. No where did I imply that swing was the music of black people, or vice-versa. I said his music was white. That says nothing of a race, it says everything about his piano playing. It's not a revolutionary idea to look at music in a color sense. Pick up a dictionary and look for the musical definition of the word "white".

Merriam-Wesbter says:
"of, relating to, or constituting a musical tone quality characterized by a controlled pure sound, a lack of warmth and color, and a lack of resonance"

If you are complaining something else is a racial slur, then please tell me.

This, folks, is what we like to call "bullsh!tting." He realized that he was being a bigot, was called off on it, and played the "misinterpretation" card.

Come on...give me a break. You were saying that the music Evans wrote was written by a white person for white people, one of the most common slurrs against white jazz musicians, and you were dead wrong. Glen Miller wrote white music...Gene Krupa wrote white music. Bill Evans did not...the music that Evans wrote transcends any petty racial boundaries or restrictions almost as much as it did the traditional bounds of rhythm and meter. Evans seemed to be good enough for Davis...in fact, the chemistry between the two of them resulted in one of the most touching modal tracks of all time, "Blue in Green."

That said, I don't dislike Chic Corea. Yes, his music is rather childish...but that's exactly what it's SUPPOSED to be. He is playful, and exuberant...although his playing bears a striking resemblance to video game music at times, he's also done some pretty incredible stuff, and is definitely one of the greats.

Ned

10-22-2005, 03:56 AM

Pretty much every mainstream jazz pianist who came to light in the sixties or later owes a great debt to Bill Evans, including Chick Corea and pianists significantly greater than Chick Corea--Herbie Han***** for example, who was profoundly influenced by Bill Evans. No one is obligated personally to like Bill Evans--tastes vary--but it is necessary to acknowledge his importance in jazz history. Corea, on the other hand, flitted about here and there and never made a dent.

DemBonez

10-22-2005, 09:25 AM

This, folks, is what we like to call "bullsh!tting." He realized that he was being a bigot, was called off on it, and played the "misinterpretation" card.

Come on...give me a break. You were saying that the music Evans wrote was written by a white person for white people, one of the most common slurrs against white jazz musicians, and you were dead wrong. Glen Miller wrote white music...Gene Krupa wrote white music. Bill Evans did not...the music that Evans wrote transcends any petty racial boundaries or restrictions almost as much as it did the traditional bounds of rhythm and meter. Evans seemed to be good enough for Davis...in fact, the chemistry between the two of them resulted in one of the most touching modal tracks of all time, "Blue in Green."

Actually, give me a break you jackass. I didn't play the "'misinterpretation' card," Ned brought that word up. I restated what I said. You can think of me as a bigot if you want, but if you want to slander me for anything it should probably be plagiarism. I heard a fellow forum member describe Evan's music as "white" before. I asked him to explain what it meant, he did, and I thought it was an accurate depiction (this was before I started really listening to him). I liked it, so I started to use it to describe his music. But, heh, I'm glad you know what frame of mind I use words, expecially considering I've never thought of race as a factor in Jazz.

And if you want to talk about music inteded for white people, what about Art Tatum? He habitually put in all hus pyrotechnics into his music when he had a white audience, and didn't when he had a black audience. Many of the recordings you hear are simply him trying to make it sound more impressive so that white people will like it (this has been pretty well documented). So why didn't I call his playing white, but I called Evan's white? It's because (I see) Tatum's music is far from white, while (I see) Evan's music is white. Hell, I'd argue that a lot of Miles' music was white.

As for influential pianists, I'd put Evans right behind Duke Ellington and James P. Johnson.

Zappa

10-22-2005, 09:43 AM

Can't we all just love Evans, Han***** Tyner, Corea, Tatum, Peterson, Monk, Ellington, Powell, Garland, Silver, Jarrett, Byard, Brubeck, Taylor, and Hill equally for different reasons?

Zappa

10-22-2005, 09:46 AM

Oh, and speaking of Byard, I would say that the combination of Richard Davis (b), Jaki Byard (p), and Alan Dawson (d) in Booker Ervin's band is one of the greatest I've heard. It's too bad it's not a very famous or well-documented group.

Det_Nosnip

10-22-2005, 03:19 PM

Actually, give me a break you jackass. I didn't play the "'misinterpretation' card," Ned brought that word up. I restated what I said. You can think of me as a bigot if you want, but if you want to slander me for anything it should probably be plagiarism. I heard a fellow forum member describe Evan's music as "white" before. I asked him to explain what it meant, he did, and I thought it was an accurate depiction (this was before I started really listening to him). I liked it, so I started to use it to describe his music. But, heh, I'm glad you know what frame of mind I use words, expecially considering I've never thought of race as a factor in Jazz.

And if you want to talk about music inteded for white people, what about Art Tatum? He habitually put in all hus pyrotechnics into his music when he had a white audience, and didn't when he had a black audience. Many of the recordings you hear are simply him trying to make it sound more impressive so that white people will like it (this has been pretty well documented). So why didn't I call his playing white, but I called Evan's white? It's because (I see) Tatum's music is far from white, while (I see) Evan's music is white. Hell, I'd argue that a lot of Miles' music was white.

As for influential pianists, I'd put Evans right behind Duke Ellington and James P. Johnson.

Ok. Rescended.

PS it cracks me up that Herbie's last name is being censored. Poor guy...:lol:

dj_ando

10-22-2005, 11:15 PM

yeah, same with gary peac0ck :p

Ned

10-23-2005, 02:32 AM

I heard a fellow forum member describe Evan's music as "white" before. I asked him to explain what it meant, he did, and I thought it was an accurate depiction (this was before I started really listening to him). I liked it, so I started to use it to describe his music. So as to avoid confusion, you might try appending "bread" to your "white" in the future.

And if you want to talk about music inteded for white people, what about Art Tatum? He habitually put in all hus pyrotechnics into his music when he had a white audience, and didn't when he had a black audience. Many of the recordings you hear are simply him trying to make it sound more impressive so that white people will like it (this has been pretty well documented). I hadn't heard this. Can you cite at least one of these documents? My favorite Tatum recordings are his blues recordings, possibly primarily intended for black audiences and just as florid.

Hell, I'd argue that a lot of Miles' music was white.Yeah well, Evans and Miles shared an aesthetic, a concern for introspective, lyrical, subtle music and nuance. I'd guess it's the subtlety and nuance that's throwing you. Evans obviously built on the work of Bud Powell, but in his early days he was also very influenced by Horice Silver.

As for influential pianists, I'd put Evans right behind Duke Ellington and James P. Johnson. Ellington was a significant jazz figure, of course, but not as a pianist. As for Johnson, the origins of stride are harder to pin down. Teddy Wilson was certainly a prominant and gifted practitioner. Earl Hines is credited as his precursor.

Ned

10-23-2005, 02:42 AM

Can't we all just love Evans, Han***** Tyner, Corea, Tatum, Peterson, Monk, Ellington, Powell, Garland, Silver, Jarrett, Byard, Brubeck, Taylor, and Hill equally for different reasons? In a word: No.

Ned

11-18-2005, 12:52 AM

In any case, the most historically significant and influential rhythm section (and widely regarded as best in its day) was Walter Page, Jo Jones, Freddie Green, and Count Basie. Walter Page's walking, Jo Jones's transfer of the beat to the cymbal, and Basie's left hand were all precursors of bebop. (Modern jazz piano left-hand goes: Basie to Bud Powell to Bill Evans.)

Lady Lex

11-18-2005, 02:35 AM

and stop with the racist slurs, please. Thank you.
Hmm... Ive found words mean krap all. Its when a person looks you in the eyes when theyre saying the words its a problem.. who cares anyway? ;)

But yeh Ned: Bill Evans. And that 'white' sound peeps are referring to is 'classically trained'. :lol: Geezum. Thats hilarious. I beleive that Miles was right on the money getting Bill rather than any other jazz keys player. But thats Miles...

Jazz Standards is indeed my favourite DVD. I never enjoyed Keith's playing until I entered my jazz keys phase.. his technique was waay too percussive for me to begin with. But.. several years later, he is one of the most amazing pianists to traverse this planet.

Anyway:
Tony, Herbie, Ron
Oscar Peterson, Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen
Bill Evans, Percy Heath and Connie... Kay (?)
Paul Chambers Red Garland, Philly Jones
Herbie, Buster and Billy Hart are great too
or Herbie, Buster and Tootie Heath
Herbie (and anyone really!), Eddie Watkins & James Gadson were on the money IMO
tho Herbie, Michael Clark & Paul Jackson rock
Steve Gadd, Herb Bushler & Don Grolnik are good for some cheese

tho my eternal favourite remains as:
Jaco (praise be), Joe Zaiwinul & Peter Erskine

So many awesome Jazz musos. *sigh Love it to bits and pieces.

Ned

11-18-2005, 02:51 AM

....But yeh Ned: Bill Evans. And that 'white' sound peeps are referring to is 'classically trained'. :lol: Geezum. Thats hilarious....

The author of what appears to be the only Bill Evans biography ever published, How My Heart Sings, makes rather a big deal of Bill Evans's classical training, but it seems to me that for jazz pianists a modicum of classical training is the rule rather than the exception. I don't suppose Herbie Hancock, who performed a Mozart concerto with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra when he was eleven, counts because he came after Bill Evans, but Teddy Wilson certainly had classical training. Art Tatum had some classical training. Oscar Peterson had fairly extensive classical training. Dave Brubeck had classical training....and so on.

Lady Lex

11-18-2005, 03:09 AM

Sometimes I have to wonder Ned. Because an 'issue' with classical training (if a pianist is .. 'prone to influence' and not strong enough or determined enough to get away from the classical system), is that Classical training polishes away the raw bits - and the raw bits are, IMO, the necessary aspects to Jazz. Ive met plenty of Jazz Pianists who consider themselves 'traditionalists' - in that they have approached Jazz purely withOUT a classical perspective/training - and really, they rock it out. In terms of technique, Classical training would be extremely helpful and beneficial (of course). But technique, whilst helpful, aint the be all and end all. In Jazz Keys where rhythm and percussive treatments (since keys is in the rhythm section) are necessary, IMO a full understanding of rhythm would be, moreso, the requirement. Just a few silly thoughts tho. :)

Lady Lex

11-18-2005, 03:11 AM

BTW: Im laughing myself silly about all these references to racism.

Any non-whiteys on here? :lol:

Ned

11-18-2005, 03:31 AM

Lady Lex

11-18-2005, 03:52 AM

:lol: You are indeed touchy. I almost gotta wonder if youre a girl ;) You dont include Monk because it wouldnt be exactly positive for your argument now.. would it? :lol:

Besides - Did I write that it wasnt the case? I merely provided a thought on it:

But hey -
Count Basie
Duke
Jelly Roll
Buddy Powell (poor poor Buddy)

And considering the accessibility to, and massive repertoire of Classical music, it would indeed be difficult to find a pianist who hasnt performed at least a few classical tunes (especially the 40s-70s when your earlier examples are establishing themselves). My post referring to the so-called 'traditionalists' are about contemporary musicians, who have many more tunes other than classical, to choose from.

Ned

11-18-2005, 04:19 AM

:lol: You are indeed touchy. I almost gotta wonder if youre a girl ;)
Very much the opposite of a girl--but I don't suppose I'd better elaborate.

You dont include Monk because it wouldnt be exactly positive for your argument now.. would it? :lol: Nonsense. I said name non-classically trained jazz pianists other than Garner and Monk because I know that Garner wasn't and I would be surprised to learn that Monk was--because he seems to have no technique whatsoever. In other words, I want you to name ones I don't already know about. Of course there were some notable jazz pianists without classical training. My "argument" as you put it, is that Bill Evans with his classical training is closer to the norm than the exception.

Besides - Did I write that it wasnt the case? I merely provided a thought on it: There's no point in suggesting that non-classically trained jazz pianists are better without any specimens to cite as evidence, and if "better" means "more representative", as it seems to in this case, there needs to be more than a few odd exceptional specimens.

But hey -
Count Basie
Duke
Jelly Roll
Buddy Powell (poor poor Buddy)

Jelly Roll Morton and Bud Powell were classically trained. I don't know about Basie and Ellington.

And considering the accessibility to, and massive repertoire of Classical music, it would indeed be difficult to find a pianist who hasnt performed at least a few classical tunes (especially the 40s-70s when your earlier examples are establishing themselves). Teddy Wilson and Art Tatum established themselves in the thirties. Although I didn't mention specifically examples earlier than these, I meant, and mean, all the way back. Scott Joplin was classically trained.

My post referring to the so-called 'traditionalists' are about contemporary musicians, who have many more tunes other than classical, to choose from. Contemporary with what?

Lady Lex

11-19-2005, 06:31 PM

Nonsense. I said name non-classically trained jazz pianists other than Garner and Monk because I know that Garner wasn't and I would be surprised to learn that Monk was--because he seems to have no technique whatsoever. In other words, I want you to name ones I don't already know about. Of course there were some notable jazz pianists without classical training. My "argument" as you put it, is that Bill Evans with his classical training is closer to the norm than the exception.

I didnt say that was the case at all. I suggested a flaw with classical training for jazz pianists that was of my own thinking. And of course it would have been the norm: how do you think musos got networked - at clubs or 'musical groups' eg universities.

There's no point in suggesting that non-classically trained jazz pianists are better without any specimens to cite as evidence, and if "better" means "more representative", as it seems to in this case, there needs to be more than a few odd exceptional specimens.[/i]
You are interpreting it as 'better'. I dont need to cite examples. Experience can not be determined from a book. The jazz keys players emerging from today (and I cant suggest any words in books for you to refer to - if you are an active jazz punter, you will already know that this is emerging) are shunning their past classical experience because it has polished the raw edges from their performance and application skills. Ned: do yourself a favour - engage in a chat with a few local jazz key students. Whilst they will say yes - we have had classical training, you will find they are preferring to steer away from it for the moment - for the reasons Ive already stipulated.

[quote]Jelly Roll Morton and Bud Powell were classically trained. I don't know about Basie and Ellington.
No, they were not classically trained. They were taught to play the piano - but they were not classically trained. They may have been exposed to classical tunes (how can you avoid them when the piano is stilted in its classical traditions) but they were not classically trained. Know how I know? You can hear it in their performance. There is a definite difference in a classically trained pianist and a non-classically trained pianist. Compare Bud to Bill. The touch is the giveaway.

Contemporary with what?
Gee Ned: with all your nosing thru the books as you write on here -Id have thought youd know what 'contemporary' means.

BTW If I hadnt known too much about Herbie's classical beginnings, Id have cottoned onto His classical connections just by looking at the last few albums he's released. Kinda obvious. But understandable: playing with an orchestra is absolutely a fine experience - though I doubt he would have had as deep a connection with the orchestra as he did with his bands. Still.. being surrounded in all that sound.. wow.

moogoogaipan

11-19-2005, 07:06 PM

Corea, on the other hand, flitted about here and there and never made a dent.

I don't think it's logical to say that because everyone in the jazz world knows his name. It's not like he is some obscure person that no one knows. Even though he might be immature in his playing style (not my words) doesn't mean that he didn't make a dent. There a hundred of students out there now who are learning to emulate his style...for better or for worse.

dj_ando

11-19-2005, 08:33 PM

i've never been much of a fan of corea, to be honest, but as you say everybody who listens to jazz knows him. you don't get to be, dare i say, a jazz icon without being an influencial player.

Ned

11-20-2005, 02:28 AM

I don't think it's logical to say that because everyone in the jazz world knows his name. It's not like he is some obscure person that no one knows. Even though he might be immature in his playing style (not my words) doesn't mean that he didn't make a dent. There a hundred of students out there now who are learning to emulate his style...for better or for worse.

Everybody knows his name from Return to Forever. Does that impress you?

Ned

11-20-2005, 02:29 AM

i've never been much of a fan of corea, to be honest, but as you say everybody who listens to jazz knows him. you don't get to be, dare i say, a jazz icon without being an influencial player.

A name is different from an icon. Corea is no icon.

Ned

11-20-2005, 02:40 AM

No, they were not classically trained. They were taught to play the piano - but they were not classically trained. They may have been exposed to classical tunes (how can you avoid them when the piano is stilted in its classical traditions) but they were not classically trained. Know how I know? You can hear it in their performance. There is a definite difference in a classically trained pianist and a non-classically trained pianist. Compare Bud to Bill. The touch is the giveaway. In other words, you don't know at all. Bill Evans and Bud Powell were classically trained pianists, not trained monkies: They played the way they played deliberately, in order to achieve the musical effect they thought appropriate, and if you had read this entire thread, you would have noticed that I'd already pointed out how much Bill Evans's early style (still after his classical training) differed from his mature (late fifties and beyond) style. His early style was much closer to Powell's.

Gee Ned: with all your nosing thru the books as you write on here -Id have thought youd know what 'contemporary' means. In other words, you think contemporary means modern. You're wrong. (What "nosing through books"? How My Heart Sings?)

BTW If I hadnt known too much about Herbie's classical beginnings, Id have cottoned onto His classical connections just by looking at the last few albums he's released. Or so you claim.

Ned

11-20-2005, 04:25 AM

Gee Ned: with all your nosing thru the books as you write on here -Id have thought youd know what 'contemporary' means.

Ah, I'd overlooked the phrase "as you write on here". This is hilarious. Sorry, it's all off the top of me 'ead--otherwise I'd have checked up on Ellington's and Basie's background. Solipsist projection is the only explanation I can come up with (off the top of me 'ead) for "as you write on here"--bearing in mind especially that I'm addressing someone who claims to have a graduate degree in music from a reputable institution (whatever it may be) and doesn't even know what the **** an augmented second is.

Phunphone

11-20-2005, 09:30 AM

jam9383

11-20-2005, 12:52 PM

Jelly Roll Morton and Bud Powell were classically trained. I don't know about Basie and Ellington.
Jelly roll morton was classically trained. Basie and Ellington where not classically trained but they picked up a lot from looking at stride pianists play.

Lady Lex

11-29-2005, 08:01 PM

I was under the impression Jelly Roll was not classically trained. Unless there is someone about able to train a 10 year old in a whorehouse?

But then again - Jelly said so much krap even claiming that HE invented Jazz that anything he has to say would be questionable.

Lady Lex

11-29-2005, 08:10 PM

Ah, I'd overlooked the phrase "as you write on here". This is hilarious. Sorry, it's all off the top of me 'ead--otherwise I'd have checked up on Ellington's and Basie's background. Solipsist projection is the only explanation I can come up with (off the top of me 'ead) for "as you write on here"--bearing in mind especially that I'm addressing someone who claims to have a graduate degree in music from a reputable institution (whatever it may be) and doesn't even know what the **** an augmented second is.
Do you think I truly care?

Ned - honest to God: I can tell from the venom dripping from your brain cells: you wish you had my life. You really do. I believe in fostering a caring and positive community and you, in your jealousy and bitterness, hide behind your computer to try and drag the world down to your base level.

Scales are something I no longer care about - seeing as Ive graduated from some rather respected insitutions with degrees. :lol: Who, but unestablished wannabe musicians care about scales? Whilst I love them, theyre so ingrained that is not longer matters. Get to that point honey.
If I get tiny insignificant things wrong, it doesnt matter to me because its all about the bigger picture.

And so far - I appear to be the only female taking you on.
I already know how ugly you are - youve proven it with your bitter and sorry attitude. :lol: