Developing Absolute Pitch

[moogoogaipan]

Are any of you guys in the process of developing absolute pitch(perfect pitch).
I'm trying to. I'm starting to hear certain tone colors that I haven't noticed before, but I didn't know if you all were in the camp that say that perfect pitch can't be developed, or if you were trying.

Comment on it, or ask me questions. I have lots of new information.

Sorry, I didn't even notice the post 2 down from here.

I'm doing the David Lucas Burge course right now. I'm only on masterclass 5 though.

[Zappa]

I am much more interested in relative pitch.

[moogoogaipan]

Relative pitch is useful.
But people who can't or haven't tried to develop perfect pitch are the ones who say that.

Here's an analogy.

A majority of colored blind artists are looking at a picture. And a minority of artist who see in color are looking at the same picture.
Colorseeing guy says I'm glad I can see the color, then the colorblind people retort that they think that color is unnecessary.
But if you think about it.
You can relate it all like this.
Perfect pitch makes you see color, but the picture is blurry. Relative pitch makes the picture clear, but it's uncolored.
Combine the two and viola.
Don't just run around saying the relative pitch is better. It's not better... they are on two different levels, You need both to be a good musician, but your missing out on not having one or the other.

[Zappa]

The idea that perfect absolute pitch is necessary to being a good musician is just ridiculous. Also, your analogy is ridiculous, because neither a sense relative pitch nor absolute pitch are important when interpreting a piece of music that you are hearing. And it's "voila." A viola is a stringed instrument that is similar to a lower-pitched violin.

[moogoogaipan]

Thanks for being a smart@ss.
Everyone has their opinion, music can be very deep. It's just my opinion, don't call it ridiculous just cause you don't have perfect pitch. You can't know what music sounds like to someone with perfect pitch if you yourself don't have it.
Don't call one method better than the other, especially if you don't understand it.
There's nothing saying the a musician can't be great without PP. I'm not saying that, but it's a lot easier when you do.

Someone else wanna come in here and take a side. I know there's two camps here that will argue with me, or against me.

[Zappa]

I guess you're right that I can't say that having perfect pitch doesn't change your perception of the music you hear. My only point in this thread is that I'm not interested in developing perfect pitch because it's not something I feel I need.

[moogoogaipan]

that's perfectly fair. I respect that.

[HomeCatMickey8]

Could one of you explain perfect and relative pitch to me.

I'm not sure if I'd be interested in developing either one at the moment, considering I just figured out the idea of singing on key, but I might want to do so in the future.

[moogoogaipan]

Perfect Pitch: there is 6 stages
1. color awareness- you can tell that there is something different(aside from space between) about each note.
2. color discrimination- the ability to discern the twelve basic pitches
3. refined color discrimination- the ability to discern the variations within a single pitch
4. universal color discrimination- the ability to discern pitches on any instrument as opposed to just the one you learned on
5. Spectral discrimination- same level as refined discrimination, except this deals with all forms of sound
6. Aural Recall- without any reference point, you can sing a pitch of your choosing

Relative Pitch: Also complicated, but more easily attained.
It's the understanding of notes in relation to each other. Taught at most universities and some high schools. A must for musicians.

[HomeCatMickey8]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to give that a couple of years before I get into that.

Thanks for the lesson, though.

[Merkaba]

Well like I said I've always seen songs and parts of songs and melodies as pictures and colors. I know for a fact I dont have perfect pitch but it is helpful when you see things as colors or shapes as long as you dont force it and keep them the same. And again, some notes and pitches you can learn if you play an instrument, just by having played a certain note or chord so many times.

Relative pitch can be worked on by singing acapella and with a piano or instrument.

[moogoogaipan]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to give that a couple of years before I get into that.

Thanks for the lesson, though.

my pleasure. I understand that it sounds daunting to a beginner... I only recently discovered the program and I'm determined to develop it. It would be the greatest achievement that i've had.

To Everyone else: if you are gaining perfect pitch or already have perfect pitch, please converse with us. I'm interested in talking with people about it since I have just begun to learn it.
It's the greatest feeling knowing that you can obtain that which was taught to be unattainable. In your face you stupid ignorant teachers who wouldn't teach me pitch.

[HomeCatMickey8]

If it "enhances" the listening experience, I would love to work on both relative and perfect pitch eventually. And I'm guessing it does make music sound even better from the way you guys explain it.

What is this course you speak of?

[moogoogaipan]

it's called "Perfect Pitch Ear Training Supercourse"
by David Lucas Burge.

It costs about 90 bucks on Ebay, but I downloaded it for free off limewire. But I don't know if its still on there cause it took a terrible long time to download cause the hosts kept dropping off.

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

I have what David Lucas Burge refers to as "second stage" perfect pitch.

That's where you can name any pitch, but only on your own instrument (for me piano).

Stage three is where you can name any pitch on any instrument.

Stage four is where you can sing pitches on demand (which I can kind of do).


EDIT: I have very very very good relative pitch.

[moogoogaipan]

[QUOTE=Diatonic Dissonance™]

Stage four is where you can sing pitches on demand (which I can kind of do).
QUOTE]

Don't mean to be a nagging nanny :rolleyes:

but I think you left some stages out. There are 6 of them
I could explain, but i'm sure you have the handbook. or you could even find it online.
Not correcting you, just for others knowledge base

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

Oh, are there? Haha, my bad.

I just seem to recall in the third or fourth master class he named four stages.

[moogoogaipan]

I'm sure there might have been. I looked on his webpage recently though and he had labeled six. Of course, I have the latest version, so he might have added some phases in there.

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

It's all good.

[allthegoodnamesweregone]

its almost perfect, i can tune a guitar to e,oped g,opem em and such by ear so yeah im close, i have a half decent relative pitch as well so its all good.

[moogoogaipan]

^^that's actually one of his development exercises in the beginning.
He makes solo guitar players learn to tune their guitar without any reference.

[azguitar92]

i didn't think getting absolute pitch was possible unless you were born with it. i have friends who developed it without even trying because of their genetics or something. but i also know people who have tried and developed relative pitch.

[moogoogaipan]

That's a common myth. Perfect pitch isn't at all genetic, well in a sense it is. To say that in every human's genes, the ability to develop perfect pitch is there. Unless you really start to work on it, you don't believe it. But I started the program and I'm already hearing things that i've never heard before in a note.
It's ignorant for teachers to tell their children that perfect pitch is genetic, or that it can't be obtained. This is the downfall of many musicians because of their teachers ignorance to the facts.

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

i didn't think getting absolute pitch was possible unless you were born with it. i have friends who developed it without even trying because of their genetics or something. but i also know people who have tried and developed relative pitch.
You are born with it.

You just need to "unleash it" so to speak.

Think about it. If you looked at a stop sign, you're not seeing "the color red" you're seeing an emission (if you will) of 780 trillion (or whatever it is, the actual number is irrelevant) light waves per second. During the early years of your life, you have been tought to distinguish certain lightwaves with different color names.

If our eyes can do that, why can't our eyes hear 440 vibrations a second and say "that's an A!". It's entirely possible.

The only reason the majority of people don't have it is because music isn't as important as color-discrimination, therefore parents are always concerned and teach their kids how to distinguish two different colors.

If we weren't taught about colors, we wouldn't know "hey, that's red!" or "hey, that's light green!". We'd still see them just like everyone else, but we wouldn't know what they're called.

That's why the majority of people with perfect pitch have had lives revolving around music, and started instruments at young age. I started playing piano when I was 7, and I have a great ear because of it. If you're taught about in the developping stages of your life, you will pick it up just as you would (and do) pick up color discrimination.

Think about it, if you look at the red light and the green light at traffic lights, you know they're different. You call one red and one green simply because you have been taught that. You have the color discriminators built into your eye, just as you have pitch discriminators built into your ear. Everyone can tell when one note is higher than another, we just don't know the names of the notes because we haven't been taught!

[moogoogaipan]

Very well said. :thumb:

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

:thumb:

EDIT: I added another paragraph.

[moogoogaipan]

I think people will understand now. Let's just hope someone doesn't come in and want to argue.
Some people can be so ingnorant.
I have so many people tell me that it's impossible to learn, that you have to be born with it.
They are all stupid, cause they just don't how to do it. I only recently obtained a minor form of aural recall. i can pick a C whenever I get up in the morning... it's progress.

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

Yeah, I did one exercise where you have to sing a C or a D, and I was doing it great one night, and I went to bed and first thing the next morning I could do it again, :thumb:

[allthegoodnamesweregone]

im both lucky and unlucky at the same time, due to a varity of learning "difficulties" nothing major, it has turnt out that whilst i can not spell to saver my life i have a very creative mind...

another example is the fact i can play along with a tune after just hearing it eg the solo to take your mamma out by the scissor sisters (not quite trivium and stuff but ahh well)

[fishingforbasses]

does that lukas burge 100+ dollar bull**** work? I thought it was a scam....

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

Yeah it does.

[Elcon]

I also did the Perfect Pitch supercourse by D.L. Burge a few years ago and the identification ability I have gained from it, I have never lost ever since.

Though what I have, I believe, is not Absolute Pitch.

I can somehow get some tones I hear without a reference. I get get behind my keyboard and hit any tone and will get it identified correctly.
But...

Give me just a black and a white key harmonically and I am totally lost.

The way I explain my phenomenon of tone identification is that I seem to "feel" the tone C with the asked tone to identify.
So when I hear an F sounding, I can tell it is F because of the "feel" or sensation of C.

Funny to mention is that I do this in a split second and it happends totally against my will. More remarkable is that I do not even know by heart how the tone C sounds like. I cannot sing you a C on command.

I do not really know how I identify the sharps (the black keys on my keyboard) because it neighter "feels" like I use tone C or any other tone to do so.

I have no truthful explaination of why I get messed up when working with a black and white key harmonically, but I believe that when one is able to do that correctly you have developed Absolute Pitch.

Take care,

Elcon

[black&white keys]

Hey diatonic,

I'm 100% convinced that perfect pitch is available for anyone. Your story about colours is abolutely true. :thumb:

I have a question. I have the david lucas burge course but i don't quiet understand what he wants me to hear in de specific sounds.
he gives examples for F# and Eb like twangy and mellow but i need more info about the other tones.

I think there is also a problem with the 'mind'. We are just constantly thinking and this thinking is standing in the way for true hearing without labeling. I hope i'm clear on this one. when you think you block the real listening.
that's what david lucas burge means when he talks about listening but not try to hard. The harder you try the most likely you won't hear it. It 's like trying to grasp water i your hand the harder you squeeze the less water you can hold.

My direct problem in this case is: beceause i don't know what to listen to exactly, i caught myself to stick things to the note in stead of hear the specific quality from the note. David lucas burge says in his course that his experience is that anyone refers at the end to hear the same quality. I need some confirmation in what i think i hear.

So please please please help me on this one

Marco (pianist)
(sorry for my not perfect english, i'm from holland)

[black&white keys]

you can also reply to my personal e-mail mavadu@home.nl

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

Okay, hmm... this is a tough one. But I will try my best, and of course if anything I say doesn't make sense or if you have more questions, feel free to post in this thread or send to my personal e-mail: god_hates_us_all1@hotmail.com

Hey diatonic,

I'm 100% convinced that perfect pitch is available for anyone. Your story about colours is abolutely true. :thumb:
It certainly is!

I used to think you couldn't acquire it because you had to be born with it, then I realised you are born with it, and just need to unleash it.

I'm actually ashamed - Mr Lukas Burge gives such a rudimentary explanation of how and why you can develop perfect pitch, I'm ashamed that I once believed that you couldn't! He makes it so obvious.

I have a question. I have the david lucas burge course but i don't quiet understand what he wants me to hear in de specific sounds.
he gives examples for F# and Eb like twangy and mellow but i need more info about the other tones.
Hmm, the thing is, I think his point isn't that each note will have a specific sound that is unanimous to every person that hears the note. What he's saying is that each note will have it's own characteristic to you, and what you have to do is unlock those characteristics and recognise them for each note. Personally, I can't describe how an F# sounds, but when I hear one (on piano at least) I just go "oh, F#".

I think there is also a problem with the 'mind'. We are just constantly thinking and this thinking is standing in the way for true hearing without labeling. I hope i'm clear on this one. when you think you block the real listening.
Yep, that is true. Like, if I'm at school in music talking to my friends and someone sits at the piano, I'll be in mid-coversation and I'll just stop and say "C#" or "E".

I think that when you force yourself to distinguish the note, your desperation clouds your ability to disect the note. You need to be relaxed and just let your ears do their thing, so to speak, without impedance.

that's what david lucas burge means when he talks about listening but not try to hard. The harder you try the most likely you won't hear it. It 's like trying to grasp water i your hand the harder you squeeze the less water you can hold.
Yep, :thumb:. Nice analogy, too.

My direct problem in this case is: beceause i don't know what to listen to exactly, i caught myself to stick things to the note in stead of hear the specific quality from the note. David lucas burge says in his course that his experience is that anyone refers at the end to hear the same quality. I need some confirmation in what i think i hear.

So please please please help me on this one
Hmm, well, let me put it this way:

Regardless of what you hear an F# as, if that characteristic is unique for that note only, and other notes have other characterestics, what is the problem? Are you still distinguishing two notes? Can you still say "hey, that's F#!"? If you can, then it's perfectly fine that you don't hear F# as being "twangy" and Eb as being "mellow".

Marco (pianist)
(sorry for my not perfect english, i'm from holland)
Good to hear you're a pianist. What type of stuff do you play? What grade etc.

I, too, am a pianist.

[black&white keys]

I understand what you say. It's not a general issue, it's for anyone personal what part of a sound is unique so you can recocnize it as a F# or C etc.

oke that's clear, but why would mr. Burge make the note that in his class at the end anyone can submit what others say to hear in the tones, and so make it general thing after all.

I do have a few experiences in hearing a sound and just knew that's a Bb. and I also have moments where music plays in my head subconciously and it's in the right key. It sounds like the complete CD record. It 's just there, but i can't controle it.

I think i have to learn to stop my thoughts and listen in silence between my thoughts. And stop labeling, just let the sound come to you and don't move towards the sound with my mind.


I play pop jazz classical music pretty well.
You know, i play for a long time now, and i recently found out that i never played music. I pressed keys en played black dots from music sheets, but i didn't get Into the music. I always was thinking while i played. that's impossible when you want to make music. you need to create space for your emotions and that's not possible when you keep on thinking. weard isn't it, that you play for so long and quiet well, and suddenly you realise that you are totally not playing music but just pressing keys.

I'm convinced that we learn our children music in the wrong way. We first learn them to read music sheet. that's wrong. They need to learn to hear at first. Let them try to play on the ear first. It's not interresting how a note is called, it's important to learn how it sounds.

Okey enough for now. thanks for your reply. I will add you ad MSN

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

I understand what you say. It's not a general issue, it's for anyone personal what part of a sound is unique so you can recocnize it as a F# or C etc.

oke that's clear, but why would mr. Burge make the note that in his class at the end anyone can submit what others say to hear in the tones, and so make it general thing after all.
I haven't heard every single lesson, so I can't clarify this, but are you saying that he asked everyone to tell him what they individually heard in the tones?

If this is the case, does this not show you that Mr Burge is expecting people to hear other characteristics? If he thought that everyone would hear F# as twangy, why would he ask people to tell him what they individually heard in the tones?

I do have a few experiences in hearing a sound and just knew that's a Bb. and I also have moments where music plays in my head subconciously and it's in the right key. It sounds like the complete CD record. It 's just there, but i can't controle it.
Yep, I get that too.

When people I know sing/hum songs off the radio, I can tell if they're singing them at the right pitch or not. Of course, they don't know that, but they will perfectly sing the intervals between the notes, even if it's a C to a G instead of a C# to a G#. That's a prime example of relative pitch there.

I think i have to learn to stop my thoughts and listen in silence between my thoughts. And stop labeling, just let the sound come to you and don't move towards the sound with my mind.
Definitely. Don't rush yourself. I know that David stresses that point severely in his lessons.


I play pop jazz classical music pretty well.
You know, i play for a long time now, and i recently found out that i never played music. I pressed keys en played black dots from music sheets, but i didn't get Into the music. I always was thinking while i played. that's impossible when you want to make music. you need to create space for your emotions and that's not possible when you keep on thinking. weard isn't it, that you play for so long and quiet well, and suddenly you realise that you are totally not playing music but just pressing keys.
Are you saying that you don't play with emotion?

Answer this - do you love piano? Do you love playing piano?

If the answer is yes, then you do play with emotion! ;)

I'm convinced that we learn our children music in the wrong way. We first learn them to read music sheet. that's wrong. They need to learn to hear at first. Let them try to play on the ear first. It's not interresting how a note is called, it's important to learn how it sounds.
Agreed. Teach them to hear the music first.

Okey enough for now. thanks for your reply. I will add you ad MSN
:thumb:

[Elcon]

So, Diatonic,

Are you still working with the D.L. Burge PP course or did you quit because you feel you have already developed what you longed for?


Another thing,

A lot of folks keep mentioning David Lucas's talks about the twangy sound of F# and the mellow sound of Eb. They feel that if they cannot hear these mellow and twangy sound, they are not listening well enough or something.

I too say that it does not matter if you hear the twangy or mellow sound. We all hear things differently, so it will be of little or no use for David Lucas to describe the other tones.

What info would you have liked on other tones? Even if they would suit the perception of your ear, you would have still gotten nowhere, because Absolute Pitch would not have been developed just by hearing these characteristics in tones.

Why so?

Because each tone already has its own characteristic in them.
I say "in the tones", because I take into account the timbre that plays an issue here.

This does not mean that one has to dive "into" the tones deeply to hear its characteristic. The ear hears them fine already. David Lucas also mentioned this on his PP course.

We already hear the difference (characteristics) in tones, but it is the specific exercise to unlock our Absolute Pitch.

Maybe this was already known to all of our readers, but I felt like posting it again.

Also, very important note here...

Never try to get rid of your Relative Pitch, because it is essential in our development of Absolute Pitch.


Take care,

Elcon

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

So, Diatonic,

Are you still working with the D.L. Burge PP course or did you quit because you feel you have already developed what you longed for?
No way am I quitting until I'm done, man!

I've got my tambre-PP, but I want it for other instruments, too.

I want to be able to say to someone "sing a note and I'll replicate it on the piano!".

As I said in another thread, maybe 3/12 times I'll get the actual note right (when someone sings it) but 100% of the remainder I'll always get the second time. I guess that's a reflection of relative pitch. They might sing a C and I'll hit an A and go "wait, that's a sixth, so I'll just go up three halfsteps!"

I'm also extremely interested in aural-recall. I can already sing melodies perfectly (hey, I'm not being pretentious, it's just fact) without transposing, but I think that's a reflection of memory, and not perfect pitch.

Another thing,

A lot of folks keep mentioning David Lucas's talks about the twangy sound of F# and the mellow sound of Eb. They feel that if they cannot hear these mellow and twangy sound, they are not listening well enough or something.

I too say that it does not matter if you hear the twangy or mellow sound. We all hear things differently, so it will be of little or no use for David Lucas to describe the other tones.

What info would you have liked on other tones? Even if they would suit the perception of your ear, you would have still gotten nowhere, because Absolute Pitch would not have been developed just by hearing these characteristics in tones.

Why so?

Because each tone already has its own characteristic in them.
I say "in the tones", because I take into account the timbre that plays an issue here.

This does not mean that one has to dive "into" the tones deeply to hear its characteristic. The ear hears them fine already. David Lucas also mentioned this on his PP course.

We already hear the difference (characteristics) in tones, but it is the specific exercise to unlock our Absolute Pitch.

Maybe this was already known to all of our readers, but I felt like posting it again.
Very well said, :thumb:

Also, very important note here...

Never try to get rid of your Relative Pitch, because it is essential in our development of Absolute Pitch.


Take care,

Elcon
Don't get me wrong. It is imperative that you retain your relative pitch, because it is a lot more important in music than absolute pitch is.

It's funny, I get a lot of people that say "I don't have relative pitch", but I happen to believe that everyone has it. Example:

Take a song that the person recognises (in my example I'll use Meshuggah's Rational Gaze) and play it, firstly, play it with the exact same rhythm as the original song, using completely different notes. Ask them what song that is and 10/10 times they will say "I don't know. What song is it?"

Then, play it again, using the same notes (as the original piece, in Rational Gaze's case it's just applying use of an augmented octave) and the same rhythm, but transpose it just the slightest bit. Ask them what song that is and 10/10 times they will successfully name the song.

That might be a tad irrelevant, but I think it has a place in here because it is a prime example of relative pitch.

[Liam Gaughan]

I only got into music about 3 years ago, and im 17 now. So my ear, its pretty weak, i just wish i was into music at 2! I tried the perfect pitch masterclasses, and i just could not distinguish between the notes. I couldent hear the colours.
My relative pitch is getting better tho,and the DLB Relative Pitch course seems great, i only did perfect 5ths tho, and then just applied the technique to all the other intervals, not strictly following the tapes for now, im too busy :P i can usually do all the intervals in ear tests, but when it comes to figuiring out a fast bass riff, it can still take me like all night just do one **** bar (like the intro to YYZ, the ascending bit).

[LD50]

Don`t know if I`m contributing but I have a funny way of tuning my guitar if I don`t have a tuner handy. I can nail it every time and be in perfect tune with someone who has tuned theirs with a tuner.

I hear the beginning of the Doors song "Roadhouse Blues" in my head and tune my E to that (The song starts in E - buh buhbuh buhbuh buhbunaba)

As for the rest, I can recognize most keys a guitar plays in, just have trouble with sharps and flats sometimes.

I`d like to try that perfect pitch course, sounds neat.

-cheers

[tomtravishoppus]

i wouldnt like to have perfect pitch. According to my lecturer in college, it can be hell for some people, because nothing is ever in perfect tune and it'll always sound slightly off to you

[Elcon]

Hello,

After some intens practice I finally got through MasterClass 22.

Pretty cool when earlier I decided to quit on it!

I have tremendous trouble with tone E and F.
Tone B and C I sometimes confuse aswell and tone C and D I need extra time to get.

So although I did go through the exercise correctly making no mistakes, I am far from having developed Absolute Pitch.

I hope I'll do better in time...


Take care,

Elcon