hmmm

[br3ad_man]

I realise this is most probably a pointless thread, but I would at least like to see other people's opinions.

sputnik isn't really working for me. Not a technical problem, just the idea in general. With the old forum system, I could write reviews and people would read them and I would know that they were helping people's decisions and exposing them to new music. Now, however, I don't think my (or anyone else's) reviews are doing any good. I love writing, it is one of my favourite things to do, but I don't like it unless there is a point or a reason I am doing it. The point I had for writing cd reviews was that they were helping people's choices. That was a cool thing. Now, it feels like no one uses sputnik. The reviews are harder to read. No one bothers putting comments in. There is no sense of community in it at all. I just wonder what the point of having sputnik is.

I would like to know what other people think about this. I have talked to a few people about this issue in the past (some mods and many respected members) and most people agree with me.

[Adam Jones is GOD]

It has an equal amount of pros and cons for me. Its well presented, and its easier to find a particular review. And in a way, nothing has changed, as the mass majority of my review comments are from people who have the albums, and very little from people who are seriously going to check them out.

Its also getting a bit overcrowded now, attempting to encorporate too many features (track reviews I still see as pointless), and the rating systems all round are not reflective of quality or populairty.

However, I still find it better that its independent from the forums. But its still far from perfect

[Iai]

I, for one, think we could salvage the best of both worlds. Hear me out here.

Presentation-wise, I think the site should stay as it is. It looks great, it's easy to navigate, and some of the features (Playlists, Charts, Featured Reviews) are excellent touches. On that side of things, Jeremy did a great job.

Having said that, it's almost unanimous that the community - which was something we all loved about the CD Reviews forum - is almost all gone. The addition of comments was a good idea, but it wasn't enough.

So here's what I'd try to do.

1. Leave the site, aesthetically, as it is. Nobody has complained about the way Sputnik looks - in fact, a lot of people, including myself, really like it.

2. Re-instate the CD Reviews forum.

3. Change the links to reviews, on the artist pages, to being links to threads in the CD reviews forum.

Sputnik, in effect, would now become the stickied 'Review Archive' thread that was in CD Reviews. Except, it would now allow you to do things that weren't previously possible. Searching by reviewer, for instance. Seeing 'at-a-glance' what rating the album was given. Seeing how helpful the review was deemed to be by other users.

I don't know exactly how feasible this is - I'm no expert in computing. But I feel this solution would allow us to take advantage of all the possibilities that the Sputnik site has enabled, and would also re-instate that sense of community we all miss so much.

That's my 2 cents.

[Ian Curtis Is Dead]

I absolutely agree with Iai's suggestions. It almost seems pointless to write reviews anymore, it seems like no one reads them anymore. I completely agree with what all of you have said abut the loss of community. Sputnik is a cool site and all, and I like the idea of it and the added features, but imo it doesn't compensate for the loss of community.

[Jom]

I have to echo everyone who has posted so far.

I love writing reviews. A lot of my more recent reviews have been basically Forced Listenings. I feel that I write thorough and in-depth reviews, but it's frustrating that only one person will read my reviews and say something as lame as "Good review :thumb:." I also hate it when people do that and don't click "Yes" when the review asks if the user found the review helpful.

It's just that I really wish that, with all the work that goes into writing a decent review, that people would take the time to read it and give a thorough critique.

I do know that a lot of Alt/Indie people have boycotted Sputnik, and although it's none of my business, I think that's a shame because Jeremy put a lot of effort into the site and it's just not being used to its fullest extent.

I also think that track reviews are completely pointless. There's one that's two sentences long and is the biggest piece of trash I've ever had to read. It mentions nothing about the song, the instruments, or anything. In a nutshell, it says "This is Green Day's first single off the new album and I don't like it. Let's hope that they do better next time around."

I mean, that's a sorry case for a review, and I'll look at full-length album reviews from br3ad, Iai, Med, Bartender, etc. and those will be some awesome reviews, because I admire and respect the amount of work that goes into the reviews.

I love writing reviews. I think part of my problem is that a lot of users tend to stay away from nu-metal and don't bother reading it... or if they do, they'll say, "Good review, horrible genre/band." I just started working on "Lost & Found" but realized that that would be a pre-emptive review... but then again I realized that no one cares about that to begin with, so I'll have it up sometime this week.

I agree with br3ad when he says that there is no community feeling with Sputnik. It just isn't as tight of a community, and I don't think it ever will be. It's a shame.

I agree with AJIG when he wrote that the reviews don't seem representative of the albums... the only problem is that not everyone is going to write an Iai/Med/br3ad/Bartender/DeathtoPop-Punk-style review, and that's too bad.

I also echo Med's observations (it's too bad you can't log-in, man).

I also like Iai's suggestion, but I think that the CD Reviews forum should just be changed to Sputnik Reviews (or something), and then have this entire forum stickied and moved there as a Report Problems/Bad Reviews section.

/long post

[Iai]

I think that the CD Reviews forum should just be changed to Sputnik Reviews (or something), and then have this entire forum stickied and moved there as a Report Problems/Bad Reviews section.
I like this.

[Ian Curtis Is Dead]

/long post
Nail, head, something in between.

[Damrod]

I absolutely agree with Iai's suggestions. It almost seems pointless to write reviews anymore, it seems like no one reads them anymore. I completely agree with what all of you have said abut the loss of community. Sputnik is a cool site and all, and I like the idea of it and the added features, but imo it doesn't compensate for the loss of community.

I would not say the reviews are not read anymore. I wrote a review yesterday, and up till today it had more than 200 hits. It's on it's good way towards 300 now. I think the reviews are read, but not commented as much as before anymore.

[Ian Curtis Is Dead]

I would not say the reviews are not read anymore. I wrote a review yesterday, and up till today it had more than 200 hits. It's on it's good way towards 300 now. I think the reviews are read, but not commented as much as before anymore.
I just did a review of Vauxhall and I, it has about 100 hits. I can guarantee you 100% that no more than 10 people actually read the full review. Sure it was overlong, and sure most people probably haven't heard the album, but clicking the link != reading the review.

[Damrod]

I just did a review of Vauxhall and I, it has about 100 hits. I can guarantee you 100% that no more than 10 people actually read the full review. Sure it was overlong, and sure most people probably haven't heard the album, but clicking the link != reading the review.

Sure, but if you see it that way, it was probably not much different in the old CD Review Forum

[Ian Curtis Is Dead]

When I used to write reviews I visited it a lot. Plus, all the discussion on each CD used to provide more of a resource than the actual review.
El-Doctor just made this comment in the Pit, and I absolutely agree. I wish we could get that back. :'(

[Jom]

Oh good, I was worried people were going to scoff at my suggestion.

It's just that it would eliminate the extraneous forum into a single thread that way.

[the2stranger]

the lack of community feel makes for good users not visiting the review site too much, and therefore alot of other people stay away too,

I really like IAI's idea on how to re-do the site.
we'll see.

/empty

[br3ad_man]

I, for one, think we could salvage the best of both worlds. Hear me out here.

Presentation-wise, I think the site should stay as it is. It looks great, it's easy to navigate, and some of the features (Playlists, Charts, Featured Reviews) are excellent touches. On that side of things, Jeremy did a great job.

Having said that, it's almost unanimous that the community - which was something we all loved about the CD Reviews forum - is almost all gone. The addition of comments was a good idea, but it wasn't enough.

So here's what I'd try to do.

1. Leave the site, aesthetically, as it is. Nobody has complained about the way Sputnik looks - in fact, a lot of people, including myself, really like it.

2. Re-instate the CD Reviews forum.

3. Change the links to reviews, on the artist pages, to being links to threads in the CD reviews forum.

Sputnik, in effect, would now become the stickied 'Review Archive' thread that was in CD Reviews. Except, it would now allow you to do things that weren't previously possible. Searching by reviewer, for instance. Seeing 'at-a-glance' what rating the album was given. Seeing how helpful the review was deemed to be by other users.

I don't know exactly how feasible this is - I'm no expert in computing. But I feel this solution would allow us to take advantage of all the possibilities that the Sputnik site has enabled, and would also re-instate that sense of community we all miss so much.

That's my 2 cents.


That's a great idea. I would be totally behind that.

Great comments from everyone else too, thanks for your opinions.

[sweboy]

I used to hang in the old CD reviews forum alot, but I very rarely go to sputnik.

[DLR]

Sputnik is too isolated, it doesn't feel like part of the forums, which is a real shame because we have a thriving community here, and sputnik, to me, just feels like a cold wasteland. The reviews are good, site is nice, but the forums need to be involved. static sites die young, and I know there are facilities for commenting on reviews, making sputnik seem dynamic, at least in theory, but the commenting is cut off from the rest of the forums.

[plexiglass]

I agree.

[Brain Toad]

I agree with most things said. With the CD Reviews forum, I'd peak around every once in awhile for reviews on some albums, and do some myself. But now Sputnik just seems off and not part of the site. I haven't gone there more than 3 or 4 times.

[Zesty Mordant]

i agree with everything said here. i used to frequent the CD Reviews forum all the time, but since Sputnik's launch i've rarely go there. when i do contribute i find that im just ragging on a shitty review some random n00b had typed up in 5 minutes on album that was already reviewed much better in the first place.

there's a complete detachment from mx with the new site. when i need another set of opinions on an album that im not sure of buying or downloading i could always check the forum and i would know that the people that contribute regularly were capable of providing earnest and unbiased (to an extent obviously) reviews and opinions of albums and n00b idiocy was rooted out and eliminated. on sputnik, the forum seems to be overrun more by random fanboys advertising their favorites bands by giving paragraph long reviews.

anyways thats my rant.

[Jom]

I'm going to make a poll in The Pit (yeah... of all places, but that gets the most traffic) and see how it goes. Hopefully Mav won't close it; every time I think I have a good thread outside of the normal trash that's there Mav winds up closing it.

I'll edit the link in when I make it.

[Jom]

http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325644

This is the poll question... hope it's decently constructed :-\

[Iai]

I agree.
You're an expert in these sorts of things. How easy would it be to carry out my suggestions?

[Brain Toad]

I had an idea the other night, spawning from someone saying Sputnik should be like a resource or a big database. I don't know if its possible because I don't know PHP or much about webdesign, but its worth a shot. Bring back the forum, and have people post their reviews on the forum like normal, but have the reviews copied over to sputnik after awhile, to keep them in a database and link to that database sort of like the already reviewed thread.

It may bring Sputnik more close to the community.

[plexiglass]

You're an expert in these sorts of things. How easy would it be to carry out my suggestions?

Seeing as it took Jeremy a year to get it how it is I can't seen anything changing.

But, what you said is perfectly doable.

[Iai]

Okay, cool.

[mx]

This makes me really sad, because I put over 200 hours into designing sputnik.

I will remove track reviews, but the only real difference between sputnik and the way the old cd reviews worked is that sputnik has a new design, and more features. Everything else is the same, and most reviews get viewed 300 times or so.

If there is no community there, MAKE IT. A web site design should not change the way you view things. It's a bit ridiculous

[plexiglass]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you have to help make it.

99% of the users on this forum are VB3 forum users, and anything different to them is scary. Remember when you upgraded from VB2 to VB3? People liked it the way it was. At the momet people aren't using it because it is different, and doesn't feel like a forum (that which they are used to).

The best of both worlds would be you posted the review in the old forum, and it (and comments) get automatically opied across. That makes it community friendly for us, and non-community friendly for google users looking for reviews (they probably hated the forum interface).

[mx]

I've made some changes to the format of the review pages that I think helps scrolling, viewing, and might encourage posting. I really want to make this work

[Kingofdudes]

Could you please turn on vb code in the artist info section?

That way this (http://www.sputnikmusic.com/bands.php?bandid=110) wont be messed up.

[plexiglass]

It's looking better.

[Kingofdudes]

It's looking better.
I agree

[mx]

I'd like to rebuild the sputnik community, rather than just putting it back on mxtabs, since I put so much work into sputnik.

So... I need your suggestions. Just ladle anything here that would help, in your opinion. Although I don't have much time, I will promise to try my best and make this a site you'll want to check on often. And integrated as closely with MF as possible

[mx]

I meant MF, not mxtabs

[Jom]

The reason why I made that survey was to see if people had suggestions, but people only did the survey and didn't really respond.

Or, their posts would be what they selected.

Talking with some users through another medium, a lot of them don't see how a community is just going to start back up right away. The site is aesthetically pleasing and everything, it's just that there's no spirit, and what people have posted in this thread are our suggestions, which you said you were open to. The site itself isn't the problem, as you can tell from the poll. It's just that a lot of people don't care about it [yet].

[the2stranger]

well, I really like the chabges made, it invites way more to leave a comment IMO.

good work, keep it up :thumb:

[pixiesfanyo]

Yeah I have to agree.

The new edits are helping it out alot.

Nice job MX.

I think another thing that needs to be done is add something like avatars in comments?

So we can see who is who.

[Damrod]

Yeah, the new design for the reviews is great, it seems much more 'flowing' now. I think the integration of the avatars from here helps building up the feeling that it is in fact part of the network around the Forums and Mxtabs.

Hm, I can not really suggest anything more I'm afraid. I was happy with the site from the moment it went up, as I find it much more comfortable to search for reviews and reading them. But I definately like the direction it's going now.

[pixiesfanyo]

Also move the track list to the left side of the template.

[Iai]

I like where this is headed. Here are the things that immediately spring to mind.

1) The most recent album review, on the main page, looks awkward. I think it'd be a better idea to keep it roughly the same size, but not include the text from the body of the review. Maybe just the genre, band name, album name, reviewer's name, and rating, with appropriate links? And, of course, a 'Read the review' link.

2) The new layout - with the album artwork and the track review on the left - lends itself specifically to a certain kind of review. http://www.sputnikmusic.com/album.php?albumid=1760 and http://www.sputnikmusic.com/album.php?reviewid=1948, to pick two at random, both look great, because they both have introductions listing band members and various things. Other reviews that launch straight into the text, meanwhile, make it look as though the box is in the way. Aesthetically, it's increased the gulf between good reviews and bad reviews, which I feel is a very good thing.

3) The FAQ needs to be updated with, at the very least, links to threads in the old CD Reviews forum. The rules, and the How To Review A CD guide, for certain. Or perhaps a few of us could chip in and make a new Reviewing Guide, which is clearly linked on the front page. It strikes me that the reason there are lots of bad reviews recently is that people simply don't know what the standard is.

4) How about a note for new users? I don't know how easy the coding is, but on MusicianForums, there is a note at the top, that only appears when the user viewing is not logged in. We could have something similar on Sputnik, with a little welcome message, links to the FAQ, and the registration page. I think that'd be pretty helpful.

[Jom]

Iai Iai, Iai. I like your suggestions.

Sorry for the horrible pun :(

I also like the new layout, Jeremy. The incorporation of avatars will help things, I think.

[Damrod]

Jeremy, if you could look at this (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315201) thread, and get back to us with any possible solutions to the problem, I know that I would really appreciate it. I like the way sputnik looks, and think the recent changes have made it even better, but since I can't log in to post reviews or comments, I can't really contribute at all. It's not just me it's happening to, which suggests it isn't my Internet (I've tried both IE and Firefox), so if you could take a look to see if it's a problem not just with me, or, if it is user specific, if anyone could make suggestions about what I could do to fix it, I'd be very grateful.

Regarding that problem: http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7461125&postcount=9

I posted possible solutions there as well

[Brain Toad]

The new set up looks pretty good. I even and went and posted my frist review on actual Sputnik.

[Damrod]

As I stumble across more and more really crappy reviews in the style of "This CD is really great, go buy it, 5 stars" formulated in a 3 sentence review, there should be a remark about review style.

Hybridofsound wrote a really excellent guide to writing CD-Reviews in the old forum, the thread is located here (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200503) and I think it could be converted for the use with Sputnik without much work. I would volunteer to convert it, or maybe Hybrid could also do it himself.

Maybe it could be included just like the submit rules on MXtabs before the actual submit form

[рlexi the fuсknut]

I'm pretty sure hybrid is pretty much finished with mx now.

[pixiesfanyo]

I'm pretty sure hybrid is pretty much finished with mx now.

Why is that?

[mx]

There definitely needs to be a cd reviews standard, I agree. And a standard rating scale as well

[Damrod]

Hm, would it maybe help to have a global rating for an album, calculated by all the ratings that were given in the reviews? Maybe that could also include a rating system for the albums like it is on MXTabs.

Just as an idea and point of thought

[Iai]

You're moving into RateYourMusic territory there. It'd basically make Sputnik a clone site.

I mean, RYM is a great site, but we don't need 2 versions of it.

[Jom]

Hm, would it maybe help to have a global rating for an album, calculated by all the ratings that were given in the reviews?

I personally don't like that idea, even though it was a good suggestion.

My problem with such an idea is that there are already a lot of absolutely torturous reviews on Sputnik. Too many fanboys review their favorite CD (this has been mentioned ITT, I believe) and give it a five-star rating, when it very likely does not warrant one.

The same goes for someone who is anti-a band and gives it a zero-star (if that's possible, if not, then half-star) rating... it would skew the ratings slightly.

For example, there are a lot of Metallica fans, and say there are ten reviews for St. Anger:

3.5 (the best, most complete and objective review)
5 (fanboy review, very incomplete)
5 (omg go bye dis cd kthxlol)
0 (Metallica sucks)
0 (This isn't Metallica, this is Shitallica lol)
4 (decent review, but not as thorough as the first)
0 (Metallica sucks review #2)
3 (decent review, but not very descriptive)
4 (another decent review, but also not very descriptive)
1 (paragraph-long review saying "Metallica has gone downhill, don't waste your money")

Using all these reviews, 25/10 would roughly equal a 2.5 rating. Yeah, that's only a half-star rating away from the initial, thorough review, but keep this in mind:


3 (the best, most complete and objective review)
4 (decent review, but not as thorough as the first)
3 (decent review, but not very descriptive)
4 (another decent review, but also not very descriptive)

This eliminates six horrible (fanboy/incomplete/anti-Metallica) reviews.

Anyways, the final score is a 3.5. Now, yeah, it's a half-star higher than the initial review, but at least it isn't skewed (either positively or negatively) by horrible/incomplete reviews.

I feel this is a poor example, but does anyone see the point I'm trying to make? :-\

///

A CD Review guideline would also be excellent, but the only problem is that not everyone reads guidelines, as evidenced by the forums themselves.

[Damrod]

You're moving into RateYourMusic territory there. It'd basically make Sputnik a clone site.

I mean, RYM is a great site, but we don't need 2 versions of it.

Don't know the site, but if there's something out there like that, I agree that we do not need a clone of it

[Damrod]

I personally don't like that idea, even though it was a good suggestion.

My problem with such an idea is that there are already a lot of absolutely torturous reviews on Sputnik. Too many fanboys review their favorite CD (this has been mentioned ITT, I believe) and give it a five-star rating, when it very likely does not warrant one.

The same goes for someone who is anti-a band and gives it a zero-star (if that's possible, if not, then half-star) rating... it would skew the ratings slightly.

For example, there are a lot of Metallica fans, and say there are ten reviews for St. Anger:

3.5 (the best, most complete and objective review)
5 (fanboy review, very incomplete)
5 (omg go bye dis cd kthxlol)
0 (Metallica sucks)
0 (This isn't Metallica, this is Shitallica lol)
4 (decent review, but not as thorough as the first)
0 (Metallica sucks review #2)
3 (decent review, but not very descriptive)
4 (another decent review, but also not very descriptive)
1 (paragraph-long review saying "Metallica has gone downhill, don't waste your money")

Using all these reviews, 25/10 would roughly equal a 2.5 rating. Yeah, that's only a half-star rating away from the initial, thorough review, but keep this in mind:


3 (the best, most complete and objective review)
4 (decent review, but not as thorough as the first)
3 (decent review, but not very descriptive)
4 (another decent review, but also not very descriptive)

This eliminates six horrible (fanboy/incomplete/anti-Metallica) reviews.

Anyways, the final score is a 3.5. Now, yeah, it's a half-star higher than the initial review, but at least it isn't skewed (either positively or negatively) by horrible/incomplete reviews.

I feel this is a poor example, but does anyone see the point I'm trying to make? :-\

///

A CD Review guideline would also be excellent, but the only problem is that not everyone reads guidelines, as evidenced by the forums themselves.

But, won't incomplete reviews just be kicked just like in the old forum? :confused:

[Iai]

Not everyone does read guidelines, but I think that on the old forums the standard of reviewing, broadly speaking, was higher. That may just be me, but from what I've read recently, a lot of the new reviews have been worse than they used to be. In the old forum if a review was bad, someone normally just quoted the "how to review a CD" link, and the person who'd written the review got the message...on sputnik there aren't any guidelines, so that can't be done. Besides, some people will read them, especially if they're given a title that emphasises they have to be read.
http://www.musicianforums.com/sputnik/album.php?albumid=2142

Some of us are still fighting the good fight.

[Damrod]

To bring new 'fire' into the attempt to improve the standard on Sputnik:

Med57, AntiHero3314 and I have worked out some possible CD-Review guidelines for Sputnik, based on the guidelines written by hybridofsound for the old CD-review forum.

The discussion over the matter itself can be found here: http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330074

The (possible) new guidelines here:
http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7565687&postcount=8

It would be great if more people would comment on the guideline attempt, and maybe help developing short guidelines that could be displayed before every post of a new review (like it is on MXTabs). :)