Modes

[Camel42]

Who can help us learn modes?

I couldn't ever remember the major and minor scales until I saw it in a pattern that I could apply practically. To me the pattern for C Major is W W W H W W H because thats what it does on the frets when it is played on one string. I was wondering If someone could be so kind as to give the patterns for modes in a specific key (preferablly C Major.) The extent of my understanding is that there is a mode for each degree of a scale.

The HWWHHHW used when describing modes doesn't make any sense to me. The pattern doesn't seem to fit into the scales most of the time. Mabey they are talking about something else other then the frets? One guy was saying that C Major Dorian starts on d and then goes up a half step (to eb ?????????) I really need it spelled out for me such as, "the dorian mode in C major is d eb F G a b C." or what ever it actually is. Something that I could actually play to see it would help alot. Jesus I'm confused.

Is there a step that I'm skipping? Was I supposed to learn somthing else other then modes after the major and minor scale?

What purpose do modes serve in song writing? I'm assuming that they help with writing melodies.

[TheMahavishnu]

The Major and Ionian are the same (WWHWWWH)
The Dorian is WHWWWHW
THe Phrygian is HWWWHWW
The Lydian is WWWHWWH
The Mixolydian is WWHWWHW
The Aeolian is the same as the minor (WHWWHWW)
The Locrian doesn't follow any obvious pattern like the one's above as far as I know, it is HWWHWWW

*Where W = whole and h = half

So a C Ionian is the same as a C Major
A C Dorian is C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb, C (Just look at the half and whole step patterns carefully, it will make perfect sense)

[Wolfman's Brother]

I really need it spelled out for me such as, "the dorian mode in C major is d eb F G a b C." or what ever it actually is. Something that I could actually play to see it would help alot. Jesus I'm confused.

check this page it, it's very helpful Scales/Chords (http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/guitar/index_rb.html)

Is there a step that I'm skipping? Was I supposed to learn somthing else other then modes after the major and minor scale?

well can you name every note on the fretboard? do you know the difference between major and minor chords? do you understand intervals? arpeggios?

if you don't know what all these are you might be getting ahead of yourself trying to learn modes. knowing what i have listed above will make learning modes easy and more understandable.

[SRVFan2005]

C Major is W W W H W W H
I always remembered majoy scales as W-W-H-W-W-W-H. But, I could be confused with what you are saying.

[Implements Of Destruction]

I always remembered majoy scales as W-W-H-W-W-W-H. But, I could be confused with what you are saying.

Yep your right. The formula for any major scale is W-W-H-W-W-H. I think what he listed was the minor scale but i may be wrong.

[Cain]

The responses here are great. There's also a ton of helpful info from various users on the subject of modes in the "Theory Discussion Thread" on this forum. Check that out as well. :thumb:

[Camel42]

It must be the intervals that are throwing me off. I thought that the C Major Scale was C (Unison) D (W) E (W) F (H) G (W) A (W) B (W) C (H)

[SRVFan2005]

Yep your right. The formula for any major scale is W-W-H-W-W-H. I think what he listed was the minor scale but i may be wrong.
You forgot the whole combining the two tetra chords. That's the easiest way to form a scale. WWH is the formula between the first 4 notes the second would also follow the WWH pattern but the interval between the two would be also a W
So C Major would be C (whole) D (Whole) E (Half) F for the first tetra with a |whole| between the first and second followed by G (Whole) A (Whole) B (Half) C.

Minor scales are WHWWHWW (Use the A scale to figure this out, the A Minor Scale has no sharps or flats so count the intervals).

I am not sure what you mean by C (unison) D. A unison interval is playing the same note at the same time.

I just wanted to make sure this was a typo and not an error on your own part. If it is an error, I am sure it's one we can clear up for you very easy.

Edit:
I didn't even look at this part, here is your error:
It must be the intervals that are throwing me off. I thought that the C Major Scale was C (Unison) D (W) E (W) F (H) G (W) A (W) B (W) C (H)
E to F is a half interval, as you wrote it, it would have to be an F# making this a whole different scale. Same goes for the rest. Lastly, if you notice, you have an extra interval after the C. Hope that clears all this up for you.

[Camel42]

I think I understand where my stupidity was coming from. I wrote the intervals after the notes they belong to rather then infront of them. Lol.

Just to be completely clear...

For the order that modes are listed in. Each mode begains one degree higher up the scale then the previous one, and then follows the pattern respective to it? Or the pattern always begins with the tonic of the scale?

[Nightvision]

Easier way of knowing how to construct the modes.


here is the ionian mode. WWHWWWH

Now, here is the Dorian mode. WHWWWHW

Look where the bold letter has gone. From the front to the back.

So, from Dorian (WHWWWHW) to Phrygian (HWWWHWW) you do the same... and so on all the way through to Locrian.

[Camel42]

But does the pattern always start with C in C Major?

[SRVFan2005]

C is just the best example when teaching scale construction because there are no sharps or flats. In C Major, it will start with a C.

[Camel42]

So in C Major all 7 modes begin on C

[Wolfman's Brother]

So in C Major all 7 modes begin on C

No, only the first mode starts on C (ionian). check out the last page of the music theory thread, I just posted about this. let me know if you don't get it after reading that. modes (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7216910#post7216910)

[Camel42]

That helps tremndously.

[gaslight]

Okay.

Major scale formula: WWHWWWH.
Major scale spelling: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

The modes begin on different degrees of the major scale.

1st = Ionian/Major
2nd = Dorian
3rd = Phrygian
4th = Lydian
5th = Mixolydian
6th = Aeolian (Natural minor scale and the relative minor when the modes are played diatonically.)
7th = Locrian
8th = You are now back to Ionian.

If you play the modes diatonically (diatonic = notes belonging to a scale), you move the first note.

To play C and it's modes diatonically they would be.

Ionian/Major = CDEFGABC
Dorian = DEFGABCD
Phrygian = EFGABCDE
Lydian = FGABCDEF
Mixolydian = GABCDEFG
Aeolian = ABCDEFGA
Locrian = BCDEFGAB

See how when played diatonically the spelling (spelling = using numbers to describe the notes in a scale) they look like this:

Ionian/Major = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Dorian = 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Phrygian = 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Lydian = 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Mixolydian = 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Aeolian = 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Locrian = 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

(Yes, although the single octave major scale extends only from 1 to 8, when you play 9 it simply means 2 but an octave higher. When you play the major scale modes diatonically, you will begin on the Major/Ionian C, which would be for example, on the 3rd fret of the A string. You would then move up each degree of the scale until you were past the Locrian mode, which would begin on the 14th fret of the A string, and return to the Major/Ionian C beginning on the 15th fret. An octave up from where you started.)

This is fine, but to get the most out of your modes you should start them on the same note as the minor scale. There is very little point to playing the modes diatonically, because that way you are using the exact same notes and defeating the purpose.

When you play them starting on the tonic of the major scale, that is when they actually become useful in a musical sense.

When playing them like this, the modes are:

Major / Ionian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8
Phrygian = 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8
Lydian = 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8
Mixolydian = 1 2 3 4 5 6 nb 8
Aeolian = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
Locrian = 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 8

You can see how this changes the sound of the scale, which is what modes are for. Check out how they look now;

Ionian / Major = C D E F G A B C
Dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb C
Phrygian = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Lydian = C D E F# G A B C
Mixolydian = C D E F G A Bb C
Aeolian = C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
Locrian = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

As to "what purpose to modes serve in songwriting?"

As a bassist, modes for me are mainly useful to better accompany the chords a guitarist or pianist may play. They are also good for creating melodies with interesting flavours.

For simple examples, say I want to construct a line to fit over a minor seventh chord. Using the typical major scale formula won't fit that well, but the flatted third and raised sixth of the Dorian made make it compliment that chord quite well.

A major scale would also not fill well over a diminished or half-diminished chord, but the Locrian mode, defined by minor intervals, would be an ideal choice.

For a guitarist, modes are very useful in terms of soloing and creating melody lines.

For every stringed instrument, modes are useful for increasing your knowledge of the fretboard, memorising the notes, and in general learning your way around your instrument.

[poison the well]

Where would atreyu's scream fall under?

[Camel42]

To play C and it's modes diatonically they would be.

Ionian/Major = CDEFGABC
Dorian = DEFGABCD
Phrygian = EFGABCDE
Lydian = FGABCDEF
Mixolydian = GABCDEFG
Aeolian = ABCDEFGA
Locrian = BCDEFGAB

When playing them like this, the modes are:

Ionian / Major = C D E F G A B C
Dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb C
Phrygian = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Lydian = C D E F# G A B C
Mixolydian = C D E F G A Bb C
Aeolian = C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
Locrian = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C



How is it possible that the same mode in the same key can contain different notes?

How is it possible that a mode can contain notes outside of the original key?

Is a mode basically a different key derived from the original key?

[Wolfman's Brother]

How is it possible that the same mode in the same key can contain different notes

that's not possible. Major=Ionian, maybe that's confusing you

How is it possible that a mode can contain notes outside of the original key?

this is the paralell approach. i'd suggest learning derivative first, then the paralel ideas will make more sense.
Paralell
Ionian / Major = C D E F G A B C
Dorian = C D Eb F G A Bb C
Phrygian = C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Lydian = C D E F# G A B C
Mixolydian = C D E F G A Bb C
Aeolian = C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
Locrian = C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Derivative

Ionian/Major = CDEFGABC
Dorian = DEFGABCD
Phrygian = EFGABCDE
Lydian = FGABCDEF
Mixolydian = GABCDEFG
Aeolian = ABCDEFGA
Locrian = BCDEFGAB

learn derivative first, and worry about paralell after you get derivative

btw, check that link i posted too(music theory thread), someone else is asking the same kind of questions in that thread and i've been helping him, so maybe it will help you out