Could an all time white team beat an all time black team?

[Hababi]

Basketball is stereotypically considered a sport that is dominated by black players, but do you think in a hypothetical matchup of all time greats, an all white team could take an all black team?

Pick the squads:

PG John Stockton
SG Jerry West
SF Larry Bird
PF Dirk Norwitzki (don't know if he's better than McHale was, but I'm a bit stuck for other great white PF's)
C Arvydas Sabonis (in his pre injury, pre nba games, when he was an extremely mobile 7-3 guy with 3 point range in PG ball skills)

vs.

PG Magic Johnson
SG Michael Jordan
SF Scottie Pippen
PF Karl Malone
C Wilt Chamberlain

Personally, I think these matchups are a bit even.

[felch182]

black people kick *** as bballers cos they dont go to school, they just play ball all day.

[Scott Herren]

No way a white team could win. African Americans despite wanting to be equal, physically are more athletic in general than Caucasians. A white person can be more athletic, but the ceiling is higher for a black person. Look at all the amazing plays and you will find that the ones made by whites are generally jump shots and blacks are generally high flying dunks.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

Yeah i think there even too ... it would be a tough game ... and it would have to be a serious of 7 cause i dont think no one would get blown out. Im white and i ahve the highest vertical on our basketball team with a 29 inch vert .. btu i cant dunk yet cause im only 5'7 :upset:

[Cambodia]

Only if the white team were in police uniforms...*corny joke*

No way. Look at the teams. Black guys would kill them.

[MattSharpIsCool]

I think it would be pretty close. If Sabonis had come to the NBA when he was drafted, I think theres a chance he might have been considered at least one of the top 10 best centers in NBA history.

I think the black guys would win....but it would be close.

[dancetomdance182]

I think the whites can shoot the long ball and win. It's like how Lithuania was successful in the Olympics. 23 3-point shots made. I'm still going for the blacks.

[Reaganista]

Scottie Pippen?

Scoff. Try Dr. J.

And the All-time white team could probably win 2 or 3 out of 10 games.

[Illmatic]

Stockton, West, Bird, Dirk, Sabonis vs. Magic, MJ, Pip (KG could go here too), Duncan, and Shaq

I think the All-Black team would win.

All-White's perimeter shooting will make it tough, but Duncan and Shaq would destroy Dirk and Sabonis in the low post, and MJ and Magic are way too much for Stock and Wilt to handle. Pip is one of the best defenders ever, so he should be able to contain Bird, although I wouldn't underestimate Bird...he's probably faced better defensive players (Michael Cooper, who could come off the bench in a pinch for the All-Black team).

[MattSharpIsCool]

I think the whites can shoot the long ball and win. It's like how Lithuania was successful in the Olympics. 23 3-point shots made. I'm still going for the blacks.

Thats a valid point.

[Illmatic]

Scottie Pippen?

Scoff. Try Dr. J.

And the All-time white team could probably win 2 or 3 out of 10 games.

With all due respect to Doc, Bird would destroy him offensively. Pip was a monster on defense, which makes him more valuable.

[Reaganista]

Billy Cunningham was only 6'7", but he managed to grab 13 boards a game on the same team as Wilt.

[Hababi]

I think no matter who you put on Bird, the Bird of 1985 would pwn. Pippen was one of the greatest defensive players in NBA history, but Bird would still put up 30+ points.

Now, West is amongst the greatest but I think he'd have a heck of a time with Jordan. Offensively though, the white guy team would be virtually unstoppable. Here's why:

Both Sabonis and Norwitzki had/have 3 point range, which means your big men, be it Shaq or Chamberlain and Malone or Duncan would have to be guarding all the way out to the perimeter. This would in turn neutralize the size and strength advantage they would have and Stockton could run screens to let West get open-sub in Maravich on SG if you're really desperate for som offense and they'll easily put up 110 points.

[looozer]

No way a white team could win. African Americans despite wanting to be equal, physically are more athletic in general than Caucasians. A white person can be more athletic, but the ceiling is higher for a black person. Look at all the amazing plays and you will find that the ones made by whites are generally jump shots and blacks are generally high flying dunks.
In a sense, slavery was a form of eugenics because it weeded the weaker Africans from the bunch. Plus, all the physical labor that they were forced to do potentially caused microevolution (ie children with strong parents are naturally stronger). Plus, a lot of black athletes train more than white athletes because they have fewer options outside athletics. So at the average level there's not necessarily much of a difference per se, but at the elite level, yes. I know this sounds really racist, but it's like the stuff we've done to oppress African Americans has in a sense bred them for athletics.

[Hababi]

Billy Cunningham was only 6'7", but he managed to grab 13 boards a game on the same team as Wilt.


Rodman was only 6'8 and he managed to grab double digit rebounds per game without a physical force helping him. Size only goes so far in rebounding, technique matters a whole lot. That's why Ben Wallace, at 6'9, is the best rebounder in the league and Shawn Bradley at 7'6 is mediocre.

[darkavatar]

this is the most racist sports thread i've seen in awhile.
I would have to go with the black team, as they seem better put together and such.

[Hababi]

In a sense, slavery was a form of eugenics because it weeded the weaker Africans from the bunch. Plus, all the physical labor that they were forced to do potentially caused microevolution (ie children with strong parents are naturally stronger). Plus, a lot of black athletes train more than white athletes because they have fewer options outside athletics. So at the average level there's not necessarily much of a difference per se, but at the elite level, yes. I know this sounds really racist, but it's like the stuff we've done to oppress African Americans has in a sense bred them for athletics.


Ah, interesting point. I think it's not so much that they have fewer options outside of athletics so much as that's what the modern culture has told them they have-if you can't run jump and dunk then you're going nowhere in life.

[Illmatic]

I think no matter who you put on Bird, the Bird of 1985 would pwn. Pippen was one of the greatest defensive players in NBA history, but Bird would still put up 30+ points.

Now, West is amongst the greatest but I think he'd have a heck of a time with Jordan. Offensively though, the white guy team would be virtually unstoppable. Here's why:

Both Sabonis and Norwitzki had/have 3 point range, which means your big men, be it Shaq or Chamberlain and Malone or Duncan would have to be guarding all the way out to the perimeter. This would in turn neutralize the size and strength advantage they would have and Stockton could run screens to let West get open-sub in Maravich on SG if you're really desperate for som offense and they'll easily put up 110 points.

But you're forgetting that the All-Black team could sit in a zone, which would allow Shaq and Duncan to stay under the hoop. Dirk and Sabonis could hit their 3's if they wanted to, but as long as MJ and Magic and Pip (or KG) hassled them on the perimeter, they'd miss their fair share, and with Shaq and Duncan the All-Back team would have a clear edge on the boards. Also, the All-Black team would punish the All-White team on offense. Magic is seven inches taller than Stockton, MJ could score on anyone if he wanted to, and Duncan and Shaq would have their way with Dirk and Sabonis (who, like all Euros, are weak defensively).

[Illmatic]

Ah, interesting point. I think it's not so much that they have fewer options outside of athletics so much as that's what the modern culture has told them they have-if you can't run jump and dunk then you're going nowhere in life.

For 99% of the black kids living in the projects, if you can't get signed by a rap label or play sports, you're going to be a drug dealer.

[Hababi]

But you're forgetting that the All-Black team could sit in a zone, which would allow Shaq and Duncan to hit rebounds. Dirk and Sabonis could hit their 3's if they wanted to, but as long as MJ and Magic and Pip (or KG) hassled them on the perimeter, they'd miss their fair share, and with Shaq and Duncan the All-Back team would have a clear edge on the boards. Also, the All-Black team would punish the All-White team on offense. Magic is seven inches taller than Stockton, MJ could score on anyone if he wanted to, and Duncan and Shaq would have their way with Dirk and Sabonis (who, like all Euros, are weak defensively).


Some good points there, though I don't think there could be much done to really stop Dirk and Sabonis. As it is now, when Dirk is on, no one can stop him. He's quick enough to get around most forwards, and can shoot over or around most all of them. Remember, he's 7'. And, at 7'3, Sabonis could get his shot off against anyone. Also, you'd have Stockton engineering the offense. No one has ever run an offense as well as John Stockton; in his prime he could pick apart any defense.

That's a big difference there-Magic was a much better athlete than Stockton but Stockton was a better point guard, better at running an offense and also a much better defender-the guy's the all time leader in steals.

[Hababi]

For 99% of the black kids living in the projects, if you can't get signed by a rap label or play sports, you're going to be a drug dealer.


Hehe...this is veering a bit off topic...but honestly, I blame their culture for that-look at the Jewish people. No one has faced more discrimination than them, but by and large they perservere. There are ways out for inner city youths, they just don't take them. That's not to say we do all we can to help them, but they need to take a big cultural step forward.

[Illmatic]

Some good points there, though I don't think there could be much done to really stop Dirk and Sabonis. As it is now, when Dirk is on, no one can stop him. He's quick enough to get around most forwards, and can shoot over or around most all of them. Remember, he's 7'. And, at 7'3, Sabonis could get his shot off against anyone. Also, you'd have Stockton engineering the offense. No one has ever run an offense as well as John Stockton; in his prime he could pick apart any defense.

That's a big difference there-Magic was a much better athlete than Stockton but Stockton was a better point guard, better at running an offense and also a much better defender-the guy's the all time leader in steals.

With all due respect, Magic WAS a better PG than Stockton. I'm basing this solely on what I've seen. Also, KG is 7' too and is freakishly athletic, so he could stop Dirk on the perimeter. And even so, threes are only a 40-45% success rate if they're falling, while Shaq in the paint against Sabonis is a massacre waiting to happen (no one could stop Shaq when he's on top, especially not a Euro), and Duncan against Dirk could get ugly too. Not to mention that MJ was a much better athlete than West.

[Illmatic]

Hehe...this is veering a bit off topic...but honestly, I blame their culture for that-look at the Jewish people. No one has faced more discrimination than them, but by and large they perservere. There are ways out for inner city youths, they just don't take them. That's not to say we do all we can to help them, but they need to take a big cultural step forward.

With all due respect to Jews, I don't think they've gone through as much oppression as blacks have in America.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

i would say its about even like alf the jews got killed during the holocaust ... but black ppl did have to. go thru slavery tho which is just as tough to be tortured so i dunno back on topic ... i think it would be a close *** game between the 2 teams..i think MJ would dominate most of the court tho

[Illmatic]

i would say its about even like alf the jews got killed during the holocaust ... but black ppl did have to. go thru slavery tho which is just as tough to be tortured so i dunno back on topic ... i think it would be a close *** game between the 2 teams..i think MJ would dominate most of the court tho

The Holocaust was a tragedy, but does it compare to 450+ years of systematic oppression?

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

im not saying it does but im just saying losing half of one culture is terrible and slavery was just as horrible , your right slavery prolly was worse

[Hababi]

With all due respect, Magic WAS a better PG than Stockton. I'm basing this solely on what I've seen. Also, KG is 7' too and is freakishly athletic, so he could stop Dirk on the perimeter. And even so, threes are only a 40-45% success rate if they're falling, while Shaq in the paint against Sabonis is a massacre waiting to happen (no one could stop Shaq when he's on top, especially not a Euro), and Duncan against Dirk could get ugly too. Not to mention that MJ was a much better athlete than West.


Magic looked better-he made nicer, flashier plays. But, look at Magic's numbers: as his career advanced, he got worse on defense. His best offensive year, 1987, he had 1.7 steals per game, while Stockton in 88 had 3.21 per game. Magic committed an average of 4 turnovers a game to Stocktons 3. Magic got by far too much on athletic superiority, which he could not do against Stockton.

So, you'd put Garnett in the all time team at PF? He probably could do a good job on Norwitzki, but remember, Dirk doesn't have a good distributor this year, and Nash, while a very good player, is no Stockton. All Stockton would have to do is run pick and rolls; with Dirk's automatic shot they'd massacre.

MJ was much more athletic than West, true, and it's hard to compare the two since they came from different era's. But, remember that athleticism isn't everything. Most NBA players were more athletic than Larry Bird but he pwned them. I think West would find ways of keeping up with Jordan-the guy didn't become the logo for nothing :p



With all due respect to Jews, I don't think they've gone through as much oppression as blacks have in America.


In America? Sure, you could say that. But I'm talking about globally. American blacks never went through a Holocaust.

[Hababi]

The Holocaust was a tragedy, but does it compare to 450+ years of systematic oppression?


I think it most certainly does, and we're talking about what was 150 years ago. 150 years ago, blacks were slaves. No black person alive today was a slave. No black person alive today's parents were slaves. No living black person's grandparents were slaves. You might find a few great grandparents who were freed slaves. That's 3 generations. After the Holocaust, which was more emotionally devastating than slavery (many if not most slaves were treated at least humanely-their slave owners wanted them to be healthy and live, whereas with the Nazi camps they were there to die), the Jewish people in general ascended to solid social status, not 3 generations later but that very same generation.

[Illmatic]

Magic looked better-he made nicer, flashier plays. But, look at Magic's numbers: as his career advanced, he got worse on defense. His best offensive year, 1987, he had 1.7 steals per game, while Stockton in 88 had 3.21 per game. Magic committed an average of 4 turnovers a game to Stocktons 3. Magic got by far too much on athletic superiority, which he could not do against Stockton.

Steals are not a very good indication of defense. No statistics are, truthfully. And the reason Magic had more TOs than Stockton was because he ran a high-risk offense. Stockton ran a methodical, slow-it-down, pick-and-roll offense, Magic played on the Showtime Lakers and they ran a lot, which means that on average an outlet pass or two per game by Magic would go awry.

So, you'd put Garnett in the all time team at PF? He probably could do a good job on Norwitzki, but remember, Dirk doesn't have a good distributor this year, and Nash, while a very good player, is no Stockton. All Stockton would have to do is run pick and rolls; with Dirk's automatic shot they'd massacre.

No, KG could be in for Pip at SF. Magic-MJ-KG-Duncan-Shaq. And I still think you're underestimating the defensive prowess of the All-Black team.

MJ was much more athletic than West, true, and it's hard to compare the two since they came from different era's. But, remember that athleticism isn't everything. Most NBA players were more athletic than Larry Bird but he pwned them. I think West would find ways of keeping up with Jordan-the guy didn't become the logo for nothing :p

Well, if MJ was only an athlete, then no one would consider him the greatest player ever. He was an incredibly smart ballplayer too.

In America? Sure, you could say that. But I'm talking about globally. American blacks never went through a Holocaust.

Which had a bigger overall effect on the race? I'm not sure you understand how much slavery has devastated black Americans.

[Hababi]

And, going back to basketball, I think what we have here is a seems to be a battle of athleticism vs. intellect-not to say that the white guys were unathletic or the black guys were unintelligent, but that the strength of the white team is the fundamentals of basketball-Stockton's perfection of the offensive game, Bird's obsessive devotion to shooting, etc. Meanwhile, the strength of the black team is its athletcism-Magic at 6'8 with the mobility of a normal sized PG, Air Jordan, etc.

What wins out? It's conjecture, but I'll take the fundamentals.

[Illmatic]

Slavery, plus the myth that we were "an inferior race", devasted us when we were emancipated. Why do you think we are in the worst parts of every big city? Because by the time we were free, the whites lived in the rich parts, and no one considered us smart enough or worthy enough to live there. For hundreds of years we've been given lower-class jobs and been forced to live in the lower-class parts of town, because of the slavery era. There's no denying the emotional impact the Holocaust has on individual Jews, but it has not held down Jews as much as slavery held down blacks.

[Illmatic]

And, going back to basketball, I think what we have here is a seems to be a battle of athleticism vs. intellect-not to say that the white guys were unathletic or the black guys were unintelligent, but that the strength of the white team is the fundamentals of basketball-Stockton's perfection of the offensive game, Bird's obsessive devotion to shooting, etc. Meanwhile, the strength of the black team is its athletcism-Magic at 6'8 with the mobility of a normal sized PG, Air Jordan, etc.

What wins out? It's conjecture, but I'll take the fundamentals.

You act like black players have no fundamentals at all, which is why it's impossible to argue with you. Tim Duncan is undoubtedly the most fundamentally sound player in the NBA today.

[Hababi]

Steals are not a very good indication of defense. No statistics are, truthfully. And the reason Magic had more TOs than Stockton was because he ran a high-risk offense. Stockton ran a methodical, slow-it-down, pick-and-roll offense, Magic played on the Showtime Lakers and they ran a lot, which means that on average an outlet pass or two per game by Magic would go awry.


That's true, but I think it's also that Stockton ran the offense better. Magic might make bigger plays sometimes, but when it came to consistency, no one eclipsed Stockton.



No, KG could be in for Pip at SF. Magic-MJ-KG-Duncan-Shaq. And I still think you're underestimating the defensive prowess of the All-Black team.


Ah, ok, that's quite a tall team...The defense would be good; Jordan might've been the best defensive SG ever and KG is one of the best 3 defenders in the league today...Duncan is a great defender, for sure, but Dirk has shown the ability to work him over. Duncan's game is very cerebreal, much like Stockton's, and that may be causing me to understate the potential for his scoring.

The liability here is Shaq. He's not comfortable guarding guys outside the paint, really. He never has been, even when he was in his younger years and in better shape. The all white team could even run the offense through Sabonis, who could easily frustrate Shaq.


Well, if MJ was only an athlete, then no one would consider him the greatest player ever. He was an incredibly smart ballplayer too.


Really though, he grew into the player that he was. When he came into the league, he was very much an athlete with good ball skills, whereas by the end of his career he was the best player in terms of ball skills around and less of an athlete.


Which had a bigger overall effect on the race? I'm not sure you understand how much slavery has devastated black Americans.

Honestly I don't think the effect of the Holocaust can be understated. Slavery should have no bearing on anyone today; it's a thing purely of the past. There's still people alive today who went through the Holocaust.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

Slavery, plus the myth that we were "an inferior race", devasted us when we were emancipated. Why do you think we are in the worst parts of every big city? Because by the time we were free, the whites lived in the rich parts, and no one considered us smart enough or worthy enough to live there. For hundreds of years we've been given lower-class jobs and been forced to live in the lower-class parts of town, because of the slavery era. There's no denying the emotional impact the Holocaust has on individual Jews, but it has not held down Jews as much as slavery held down blacks.
I dont think it is fair to compare these two things cause the holocaust was extremely sad as well as slavery but now everonye has a chance to make there own dreams and destiny ... no reason to look back at the past now and grief over it both communities have moved on and are doing well ... no more racial talk its not good to talk about

[Hababi]

You act like black players have no fundamentals at all, which is why it's impossible to argue with you. Tim Duncan is undoubtedly the most fundamentally sound player in the NBA today.


Duncan's definately the most fundamentally sound front court player in the league today-I was making that statement unaware of your putting Duncan in there. For that matter, Malone was an extremely fundamentally sound player. Garnett is much more sound today than he was when he came into the league.



Slavery, plus the myth that we were "an inferior race", devasted us when we were emancipated. Why do you think we are in the worst parts of every big city? Because by the time we were free, the whites lived in the rich parts, and no one considered us smart enough or worthy enough to live there. For hundreds of years we've been given lower-class jobs and been forced to live in the lower-class parts of town, because of the slavery era. There's no denying the emotional impact the Holocaust has on individual Jews, but it has not held down Jews as much as slavery held down blacks.


But do you really think the post slavery experience of blacks is all that much different than the experience of Asians and Jews? They face the same kind of discrimination, even today. White racists aren't just racists against blacks; they're actually even more racist against Jews. Blacks may be the 'inferior race' but Jews are the 'evil mongrels' trying to destroy the world. Jews and Asians faced the same plight of entering into lower class neighborhoods when they came to America, having to start from scratch and facing loads of discrimination.

Honestly, I think there's just as much discrimination against Jews in today's world, including America, as there is against blacks.

[Illmatic]

That's true, but I think it's also that Stockton ran the offense better. Magic might make bigger plays sometimes, but when it came to consistency, no one eclipsed Stockton.




Ah, ok, that's quite a tall team...The defense would be good; Jordan might've been the best defensive SG ever and KG is one of the best 3 defenders in the league today...Duncan is a great defender, for sure, but Dirk has shown the ability to work him over. Duncan's game is very cerebreal, much like Stockton's, and that may be causing me to understate the potential for his scoring.

The liability here is Shaq. He's not comfortable guarding guys outside the paint, really. He never has been, even when he was in his younger years and in better shape. The all white team could even run the offense through Sabonis, who could easily frustrate Shaq.



Really though, he grew into the player that he was. When he came into the league, he was very much an athlete with good ball skills, whereas by the end of his career he was the best player in terms of ball skills around and less of an athlete.



Honestly I don't think the effect of the Holocaust can be understated. Slavery should have no bearing on anyone today; it's a thing purely of the past. There's still people alive today who went through the Holocaust.

See, that's the thing...the Holocaust had a huge emotional effect on Jews, but slavery held down the black race as a whole.

[Hababi]

See, that's the thing...the Holocaust had a huge emotional effect on Jews, but slavery held down the black race as a whole.


You're right, it held them down. But, that's very far in the past now. The survivors of the Holocaust didn't let that have an effect on them, so why should the 4th generation removed from slavery let that have any effect on them?

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

But slavery and so is the holocaust ... nothign can be done aboutwhat happened to blacks and jews they have the exact same oppurtunites now than anyone else so they determine what they do with there lives now

[Illmatic]

You're right, it held them down. But, that's very far in the past now. The survivors of the Holocaust didn't let that have an effect on them, so why should the 4th generation removed from slavery let that have any effect on them?

Because we were never given the opportunity to rise up. During the slavery era, we were considered an "inferior race", and something tells me that has never been 100% dispelled.

[Hababi]

Because we were never given the opportunity to rise up. During the slavery era, we were considered an "inferior race", and something tells me that has never been 100% dispelled.


Neither has the image of Jews as scheming evil people in the eyes of many. Blacks may be considered inferior by some, but Jews are considered downright malevolant by many, and really, what's worse? That's not to understate the negative effects of racials stereotypes against blacks, but I think the racist stereotype of Jews is even worse.

[Illmatic]

Neither has the image of Jews as scheming evil people in the eyes of many. Blacks may be considered inferior by some, but Jews are considered downright malevolant by many, and really, what's worse? That's not to understate the negative effects of racials stereotypes against blacks, but I think the racist stereotype of Jews is even worse.

With all due respect, I don't see my Jewish friends get treated like common criminals every time they go out in public.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

Sorry but everyone has a chance in this world .... its what they make of it

[Illmatic]

Sorry but everyone has a chance in this world, unless they're black, Arab, gay, or Latino

Fixed.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

Your point ?...everyone goes to school ... they do there own work ... ur black right and u go to illinois college right ? your making it ... everyone has the chance

[Illmatic]

Your point ?...everyone goes to school ... they do there own work ... ur black right and u go to illinois college right ? your making it ... everyone has the chance

It saddens me to see your view of the country.

Let's not kid ourselves here.

Who has more opportunities, a poor black kid from Harlem with good grades, or a rich white kid from Manhattan with good grades?

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

your right but who has a better chance a poor white trahs kid in the trailer park or a rich black kid ?

[Illmatic]

What's more common, a rich black kid or a poor black kid?

[Hababi]

With all due respect, I don't see my Jewish friends get treated like common criminals every time they go out in public.


But why do you think that is? Blacks make up 12% of the population but 47% of the prisoner population. Much of the racism directed against blacks today is at least in part due to the lifestyle of so many blacks. I realize that sounds racist, and I'm not trying to make stereotypes, but I will state this: A portion of the African AMerican population of America has a huge cultural problem, and saying "well look at slavery" only continues it. It leads to a victimhood mindset.

Bigotry against Jews, on the other hand, is pretty much exclusively based on preconcieved notions.

[Hababi]

Who has more opportunities, a poor black kid from Harlem with good grades, or a rich white kid from Manhattan with good grades?


Wouldn't you agree, though, that a poor white kid from rural Tennessee has about the same opportunity for advancement as a poor black kid from Harlem? The problem isn't race, it's socioeconomic class. The problem is that they're poor, and they don't have a culture that values education.

[Illmatic]

But why do you think that is? Blacks make up 12% of the population but 47% of the prisoner population. Much of the racism directed against blacks today is at least in part due to the lifestyle of so many blacks. I realize that sounds racist, and I'm not trying to make stereotypes, but I will state this: A portion of the African AMerican population of America has a huge cultural problem, and saying "well look at slavery" only continues it. It leads to a victimhood mindset.

Bigotry against Jews, on the other hand, is pretty much exclusively based on preconcieved notions.

Of course, it is partially us believing that whitey has it out to get us. It's a vicious cycle, and slavery has a lot to do with it. Many blacks are forced into that lifestyle because of slavery. Because of slavery so few of us are in the good parts of town and so few of us have good jobs. And because we see that, we give up hope (because it's been like this for so long with no change) and we turn to drug dealing and hustling.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

i understand whats more common ... but is it more common to see a black guy rob a store ... or to see a white guy shoot someone ?i mean it is bad how ppl think iin this world and i do understand that black ppl get looked on as lower class but wouldnt that make you wnat to rise up and show ppl you can do it ?i got to Whitehall yearling..50% whit and 50% black .... but i dont see as many black kids doing there work or homework there always the one talkign when the teacher is and getting bad grades cause they say i dont give a f*uck ... and your telling me thats white ppls fault ?

[Hababi]

Because of slavery so few of us are in the good parts of town and so few of us have good jobs.


But why is it because of slavery that blacks today are still in ghettos and turning to crime?

[Illmatic]

Because we were forced into it! We fought so hard for change but nothing happened. So a lot of us say **** it. I think it's hard for an outsider to understand.

[Hababi]

i understand whats more common ... but is it more common to see a black guy rob a store ... or to see a white guy shoot someone ?i mean it is bad how ppl think iin this world and i do understand that black ppl get looked on as lower class but wouldnt that make you wnat to rise up and show ppl you can do it ?i got to Whitehall yearling..50% whit and 50% black .... but i dont see as many black kids doing there work or homework there always the one talkign when the teacher is and getting bad grades cause they say i dont give a f*uck ... and your telling me thats white ppls fault ?


Can you please type out full words and use proper grammar? Not to be picky, but it's very hard to read your posts.

[Hababi]

Because we were forced into it! We fought so hard for change but nothing happened. So a lot of us say **** it. I think it's hard for an outsider to understand.


Maybe it is hard for an outsider to understand-I'm neither black nor Jewish.

But, I just still don't see much difference between the situations of blacks and Jews. Blacks and Jews were both discriminated against, both forced to start in ghettos. But, the Jews raised themselves up and established themselves; they refused to be kept down. It's a matter of culture-their culture stresses education and family.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

Yes I will sorry im just really lazy. Well your an outsider yourself to,You didnt go thru slavery ... and ur doing fine

[Illmatic]

Maybe it is hard for an outsider to understand-I'm neither black nor Jewish.

But, I just still don't see much difference between the situations of blacks and Jews. Blacks and Jews were both discriminated against, both forced to start in ghettos. But, the Jews raised themselves up and established themselves; they refused to be kept down. It's a matter of culture-their culture stresses education and family.

Jews weren't held down for as long, so they aren't as beaten-down. I can see where you're coming from, but you have to keep in mind the time length here.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

Maybe it is hard for an outsider to understand-I'm neither black nor Jewish.

But, I just still don't see much difference between the situations of blacks and Jews. Blacks and Jews were both discriminated against, both forced to start in ghettos. But, the Jews raised themselves up and established themselves; they refused to be kept down. It's a matter of culture-their culture stresses education and family.
Thats my point to .... Black ppl arent trying hard enough to rise up. The Jews are some of the most succesful ppl in the world.

[Illmatic]

Thats my point to .... Black ppl arent trying hard enough to rise up. The Jews are some of the most succesful ppl in the world.

Don't say we aren't trying, because we have been trying.

Keep in mind that the U.S. government never did anything to protect blacks, but they bent over backwards for the Jews.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

I just dont undertsnad and im sorry for not understanding. Why do black ppl still think its my fault that there was slavery ? Somebody will try to fight me cause im white and i dont get it... its just 75 % of the black ppl i know dont care about shcool and whats going on. They just dont care and i guess my point is its not my fault they dont care.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

ohh and i rember the American National Guard helped Black kids finally go to the same shcool as whites ... that seems like they tried to protect them .. maybe im wrong in Albam in like the 60 's

[Illmatic]

That was too little, too late.

EDIT: Not really, but that was pretty much all they did.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

Im sorry Disconnect for what happened in the past, and i wish it would have never happened but there is no reason to grieve over it and hate white ppl over it cause many know days would never be that inhumaine. i dindt do nothign and i wish nothign would ahve happened

[Scott Herren]

Since when did Nowitzki become this unstoppable dominant force? Dude averages 21 points a game for his career on a team that has consistantly gotten the most possessions of any team in the league with their fast paced offense. He has never cracked 40% in a season for 3. His field goal percentage has also decreased in each of the past 3 years. In fact Michael Finley (black teammate) is the better of the two from long range, shooting 40% the last 2 years from 3. Sure he is a good shooter for his size, but overall he isn't a great shooter, and isn't in the top 50 players of all time, and wouldn't stand a chance defensively against a top black power forward.

[Hababi]

40% is a very good percentage from 3 point range even for a guard, let alone a PF/C. Jordan only shot above .400 from 3 point range once during his career, not counting his 17 game season. In fact, he didn't shoot above 30 percent for his first 5 years. His career percentage was .327. Dirk's is .372. If Dirk follows the trend of getting better at 3's throughout his career, by his 8th year he'll be up around 43 or 44%.

But, maybe Dirk wasn't the best choice for our all time white team. That's a legit possibility. I threw him on last, because I couldn't think of another player to put there-could put Bird there and start Mullin at SF.


But, I've done a little more research, and here's my selection for the white guy team:

PG: John Stockton, early 90's.
SG: Rick Barry, 66. 35 PPG, 9.2 RPG (he was a forward, but we'll convert him to SG since he was 6'7)
SF: Larry Bird
PF: Bob Pettit, 62. 31.1 PPG, 18.7 RPG
C: Arvydas Sabonis

With a bench of:
Jerry West
Kevin McHale
Dirk Norwitzki
Pete Maravich
Bill Cunningham
George Mikan
Bill Walton


For the black team:

PG Magic Johnson
SG Michael Jordan
SF Kevin Garnett
PF Tim Duncan
C Shaq

Bench:
Karl Malone
Scottie Pippen
Hakeem Olajuwan
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Isaih Thomas
George Gervin

[Scott Herren]

Jordan wasn't a good 3-point shooter so comparing the two doesn't really mean alot.

[Hababi]

Yeah, but can you find many PF's/C's who shoot a higher percentage? Pat Garrity is considered a 3 point specialist and he still shoots only .413 career percentage, not all that much above Norwitzki.

[Illmatic]

You don't think that the All-Black frontcourt would wreak havoc on the All-White frontcourt? Shaq and Duncan are an unstoppable duo no matter who's guarding them, much less two players whose biggest weakness was defense.

Also, with Wilt, Russell, AND Hakeem all on the bench, Malone becomes useless. Another guard (like Earl Monroe, Mitch Richmond, or Joe Dumars) would be optimal in his spot, and Dr. J, Dominique Wilkins, and Bernard King are better than Gervin.

EDIT: Another thought: With Shaq, Duncan, Wilt, and Hakeem, it doesn't matter how good Dirk's FG% is, because the All-Black team would still win. Against the All-White frontcourt, the All-Blacks could pound it in to one of those four every time and could feasibly hit 75+% of their shots.

[Hababi]

EDIT: Another thought: With Shaq, Duncan, Wilt, and Hakeem, it doesn't matter how good Dirk's FG% is, because the All-Black team would still win. Against the All-White frontcourt, the All-Blacks could pound it in to one of those four every time and could feasibly hit 75+% of their shots.


No way 75%. Wilt, Duncan and Shaq are/were all TERRIBLE free throw shooters. McHale and Mikan could simply come in and foul them every time they got the ball in good position, and otherwise collapse on them to force them to kick it out. The AB team would be forced to rely on Jordan, and Barry was one heck of a defender. He's long enough that he could contest Jordan's shots, and could give him a little space to prevent driving. If you go with earlier Jordan, he might be able to get some good drives to the hoop, but he'll shoot poorly from the field. Later Jordan will shoot better but his driving ability will be diminished.

[Scott Herren]

Steve Nash is someone I would consider a great 3-point shooter. He isn't that much higher of a % than Nowitzki, 4.3% (41.7% to 37.4%) for his career, but he also is consistant. The guy has shot at least 40% from 3 in 8 of his 9 seasons. If you want a white guy sharpshooter then Nash would be the much better choice. Nowitzki is good because of his size which isn't going to matter going up against a frontline featuring a Shaquille O'neal and Tim Duncan. The guy would get destroyed defensively.

[Illmatic]

No way 75%. Wilt, Duncan and Shaq are/were all TERRIBLE free throw shooters. McHale and Mikan could simply come in and foul them every time they got the ball in good position, and otherwise collapse on them to force them to kick it out. The AB team would be forced to rely on Jordan, and Barry was one heck of a defender. He's long enough that he could contest Jordan's shots, and could give him a little space to prevent driving. If you go with earlier Jordan, he might be able to get some good drives to the hoop, but he'll shoot poorly from the field. Later Jordan will shoot better but his driving ability will be diminished.

So in other words, you would want the All-White team to have all their big men foul out early in the game? That's not exactly a smart strategy.

And if they do that, then All-White would be in the penalty early, so by the second half every foul by them would result in a free throw for the All-Black team.

EDIT: And keep in mind, MJ once dropped 63 on the Celtics on a bad foot with Ainge and Bird double-teaming him for most of the game.

[Hababi]

So in other words, you would want the All-White team to have all their big men foul out early in the game? That's not exactly a smart strategy.


Remember, I stacked the bench with Centers. Give 6 fouls each to Walton, Mikan, Norwitzki and McHale and you still have Sabonis and Pettit to play. That's 24 fouls and Shaq shoots under 50% much of the time.



And if they do that, then All-White would be in the penalty early, so by the second half every foul by them would result in a free throw for the All-Black team.


Foul counts reset after every quarter.

[Illmatic]

Remember, I stacked the bench with Centers. Give 6 fouls each to Walton, Mikan, Norwitzki and McHale and you still have Sabonis and Pettit to play. That's 24 fouls and Shaq shoots under 50% much of the time.



Foul counts reset after every quarter.

So if you exhaust those four, you're left with three bench players. What happens when your starters get in foul trouble? And considering the disadvantage in athleticism, they probably will get in foul trouble.

[Hababi]

So if you exhaust those four, you're left with three bench players. What happens when your starters get in foul trouble? And considering the disadvantage in athleticism, they probably will get in foul trouble.


I doubt it-you really overstate the importance of athleticism. Bird wasn't athletic, but didn't have to worry about foul trouble. They'd find their ways of staying out of it. Stockton set all sorts of illegal picks but was never called for them.

[Illmatic]

I doubt it-you really overstate the importance of athleticism. Bird wasn't athletic, but didn't have to worry about foul trouble. They'd find their ways of staying out of it. Stockton set all sorts of illegal picks but was never called for them.

And you understate the All-Black's fundamentals. You act like they're borderline basketball retards.

[Hababi]

And you understate the All-Black's fundamentals. You act like they're borderline basketball retards.


Haha not really, I just think my white team is more fundamentally sound.

[Hababi]

I plugged these teams into nba live 2005 (had to create Jordan, Stockton and Sabonis)....They have the point guards doing all the scoring, and the CPU team benched Larry Bird for Norwitzki :confused:

[Illmatic]

Haha not really, I just think my white team is more fundamentally sound.

But I still think you're severely underrating the All-Black team's intelligence.

I really think that the All-White team would hang on for dear life. They'd make it a game, but they'd fall short in the end. It would be like in the NCAA Tournament every year where a 14 or 15 seed takes a 3 or 2 seed to the wire and winds up losing 73-70.

[Illmatic]

And honestly, I think the athleticism will come in handy. What do you think will happen when MJ or Bernard King or Dominique would go to the hole? These guys were unstoppable back in the day.

[Hababi]

And honestly, I think the athleticism will come in handy. What do you think will happen when MJ or Bernard King or Dominique would go to the hole? These guys were unstoppable back in the day.


They weren't unstoppable against good defenders. Look at Dennis Rodman-he wasn't the tallest guy or the most athletic, but he defended Malone and other elite forwards and even centers and always did a good job of it.

[Illmatic]

In all fairness, Malone was not as good an offensive player as MJ, Nique, or King. And even against good defenders, MJ, Nique, and King could score.

[Hababi]

You really don't think Malone was as good offensively as Wilkens? Sure, he didn't have the explosive, jump over 2 guys for a windmill dunk game that Wilkens had, but Malone was more consistent and a much better all around player. In his best year, Malone scored more points per game than Wilkins' best year, shooting a full 10 % better from the field.

[XxMasterofPuppetsxX]

If you want a fundemantal sharpshooter look at Steve Kerr, might not be the greatest white guy might not make the cut but if you need a sharpshooter he is your man.

[Hababi]

the white guys won! Final score: 139-136. TWG was led by Pete Maravich with 36 points, while TBG was led by Magic Johnson with 33 points.

TWG was without Jerry West (didn't feel like creating him) and TBG was without Hakeem Olajuwan (ditto).

Rick Barry went scoreless. Kevin Garnett had 8 blocks. Arvydas Sabonis had zero assists. John Stockton shot the ball 27 times...

I think they need better AI...

But I still claim victory :D

[Illmatic]

the white guys won! Final score: 139-136. TWG was led by Pete Maravich with 36 points, while TBG was led by Magic Johnson with 33 points.

TWG was without Jerry West (didn't feel like creating him) and TBG was without Hakeem Olajuwan (ditto).

Rick Barry went scoreless. Kevin Garnett had 8 blocks. Arvydas Sabonis had zero assists. John Stockton shot the ball 27 times...

I think they need better AI...

But I still claim victory :D

Because one game in a very flawed basketball video game is a good indication.

[Reaganista]

http://www.whatifsports.com.

This will settle all disputes.

[Illmatic]

http://www.whatifsports.com.

This will settle all disputes.

You can't build your own teams for matchups anymore. That's where I went initially.

[Reaganista]

What? Since when?

That was the only thing that site was good for.

[Illmatic]

What? Since when?

That was the only thing that site was good for.

They went through a renovation like, last year, and I think that went then.

[Reaganista]

oic.

[krazy_guitarist_3]

What a weird question lmao

[nitzguy]

Basketball is stereotypically considered a sport that is dominated by black players, but do you think in a hypothetical matchup of all time greats, an all white team could take an all black team?

Pick the squads:

PG John Stockton
SG Jerry West
SF Larry Bird
PF Dirk Norwitzki (don't know if he's better than McHale was, but I'm a bit stuck for other great white PF's)
C Arvydas Sabonis (in his pre injury, pre nba games, when he was an extremely mobile 7-3 guy with 3 point range in PG ball skills)

vs.

PG Magic Johnson
SG Michael Jordan
SF Scottie Pippen
PF Karl Malone
C Wilt Chamberlain

Personally, I think these matchups are a bit even.
SPeed kills, and none of the white guys have speed. Arvydas has good quickness but he can't run up the floor constantly like Wilt.

[nitzguy]

In a sense, slavery was a form of eugenics because it weeded the weaker Africans from the bunch. Plus, all the physical labor that they were forced to do potentially caused microevolution (ie children with strong parents are naturally stronger). Plus, a lot of black athletes train more than white athletes because they have fewer options outside athletics. So at the average level there's not necessarily much of a difference per se, but at the elite level, yes. I know this sounds really racist, but it's like the stuff we've done to oppress African Americans has in a sense bred them for athletics.
my friend and i talked about this a while ago, and i would agree with you :thumb:

[simplephotographinthesun]

Jews weren't held down for as long, so they aren't as beaten-down. I can see where you're coming from, but you have to keep in mind the time length here.

hard to say, anti-semetic feelings seem like they've been around forever

[Hababi]

Because one game in a very flawed basketball video game is a good indication.


Hehe I wasn't being entirely serious there ;)

[Illmatic]

Hehe I wasn't being entirely serious there ;)

I know, but being beaten by a team led by a mop-haired Lousiana redneck with floppy gym socks is always discouraging.

[crazyman]

No way a white team could win. African Americans despite wanting to be equal, physically are more athletic in general than Caucasians...

not really, be careful with that man :\