Tracy McGrady

[dancetomdance182]

How crazy is he? He score 13 points in less than 40 seconds. And a 4 point play when Duncan was on him...literally. What do you think?

[looozer]

T-Mac is the ultimate streaky shooter. He's not known for his outside shooting as much as he is for his slashing. I remember last year when he jacked 8 threes in a half (can't remember how many he missed, I don't think he missed any), but this is way more impressive. When he hits, there's nothing than can stop him, Tim Duncan included.

[rhcp_r_gods]

yah the raptors got screwed in trading him and not carter

[3074326]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's one of the top five best players in the NBA.

[Illmatic]

The only thing wrong with T-Mac is that he's stunting Yao's growth. T-Mac is amazingly talented--when he's on, he's like Scottie Pippen crossed with Dr. J--but he wasted his developmental years on horrible Orlando teams where he was counted on for all the offense, so he never learned to involve his teammates. And because Jeff Van Gundy knows that the best way to win is to run the T-Mac offense, poor Yao is left standing around and watching T-Mac way too often.

[rhcp_r_gods]

Yao Ming and T mac are on different teams

[3074326]

No, they both play for the Houston Rockets.

[rhcp_r_gods]

oh yah i forgot about the off season transaction

[boss]

haha man
that was one of the biggest trades

[rhcp_r_gods]

yah i was in the hospital getting morphine injected into me :thumb:

[Evil Clown Liquor]

Still, Yao Ming is no Hakeem Olajuwon.

[PimpDaddyKabZ]

Yao Ming is the most unmotivated player in the NBA.
T-Mac is too **** good, but he is not the most consistent guy especially at the start of seasons.
Hopefully the trend will continue since he is on my fantasy team...heh..

But seriously....he is one of the best players in the game IMO...obviously debatable to no end, but still, when was the last time you saw a player score 62 points?

[bball_1523]

that was a shocking game. I saw it all happen before my eyes and I expected spurs to wrap it up, and then t-mac went on a rampage. But what is realistic is that T-mac needs to work on his consistency. The next game vs. Dallas, rockets got manhandled and no magical t-mac this time.

I think Yao is the main reason the rockets aren't playing well. If Yao has a near aggressive playing style as Shaq, Rockets would probably be competing with Spurs and Mavs for the Southwest Division.

[KappaKid17]

Dirk > TMac

'Nuff said.

[Illmatic]

Yao can't be as aggressive as Shaq because he's not nearly as big or as strong. Yao plays most like Bill Walton--a big man with soft hands, good court vision, and good shooting range. I think spending his formative years with horrible teams has gotten him down a little.

T-Mac is most certainly one of the five best players (along with Duncan, Garnett, Lebron, and Dirk) in the league now, and definately the best swingman (although I wish Paul Pierce would get his head on straight).

[Twitch]

Tmac, while a good scorer isn't a good player. He was the best player on the Magic, and they didn't win. Now he is the best player on the Rockets, and they aren't winning. The rockets got the short end of that trade because Francis > Tmac.

[Illmatic]

Twitch: You're wrong.

T-Mac is better than Francis.

The comeback of Grant Hill and the emergence of Dwight Howard are big reasons why the Magic are winning.

[Twitch]

Ok...then why aren't the Rockets winning?

[Illmatic]

Because they're almost as bad as T-Mac's teams in Orlando, plus they play in the Western Conference.

They probably have the worst point guards in the league (Lue, Ward, Barret), their third best player (Juwan Howard) is washed up, their best bench player (Sura) has been hurt, they're actually starting someone named Ryan Bowen (who?), and all in all, other than T-Mac and Yao, there isn't a single player other than maybe Juwan Howard who could crack the eight or nine-man rotation of the better teams in the league. This is essentially a two man team, which won't cut it in in the West.

[Twitch]

All Tmac is a scorer. He doesn't improve the players around him at all.

*ahem* such as Carmello Anthony/Lebron James

/whores young players

[looozer]

T-Mac is better individually than Francis. Francis (though he is a rather individualistic player) contributes more to a team game. T-Mac might be more skilled, but Francis is a more valuable player in 5 on 5 when all is said and done.

edit: and Orlando got the better end of the deal because Francis could add to Yao's effectiveness, whereas T-Mac cannot unless he catches fire and they hav e to double team him.

[rhcp_r_gods]

Ok...then why aren't the Rockets winning?


Same reason why the New York Rangers dont the player r cocky superstars

[supraman_2]

T-Mac is better individually than Francis. Francis (though he is a rather individualistic player) contributes more to a team game. T-Mac might be more skilled, but Francis is a more valuable player in 5 on 5 when all is said and done.

edit: and Orlando got the better end of the deal because Francis could add to Yao's effectiveness, whereas T-Mac cannot unless he catches fire and they hav e to double team him.
Well said, although if he starts distributing better the Rockets could be winning T-Mac just needs to play like he's not the only superstar around. Even though he's great he's very inconsistent

[Illmatic]

How is Steve Francis any better at setting up teammates? In Houston he was a selfish, shoot-first point guard who barely understood the nuances of the position. He was stunting Yao's growth as much as T-Mac is now. Why do you think the Rockets were shopping him?

[KappaKid17]

It was pretty evident they wanted Francis gone after they brought in Yao and the two didn't mesh well. The Rockets put a lot of interest in Yao, so they'd much rather pick up a guard who'll play well with him.

[looozer]

Yao is a waste. Unless his growth was really tragically stunted, I would say that he is one of the league's most overrated players.

I don't see how trading Francis was a good move, because Francis was committed to the team winning more than T-Mac is. That's why Franchise protested the trade in the first place. T-Mac's scoring has been helter skelter, to throw in a Beatles reference, and I don't think any of the new point guards are any better helpers than Francis was. The Rockets seem to want to develop Yao as a big offensive weapon. In that case, what they need is NOT a selfish shooting guard (which they acquired) or a selfish point guard (which they dealt away). They need a point guard with amazing court vision who can exploit matchups and find open people, forcing people to single cover Yao. Steve Nash anyone? I don't know the economics, but I think Francis suited them better than T-Mac, even though neither one fits.

[Illmatic]

Neither one fits, though, is my point. I think.

The shape of the NBA is really sad nowadays. How many GMs know what they're doing? Four?

[grungefan21]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's one of the top five best players in the NBA.

Here's 6 better:

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Shaq
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd

I'm not even counting Paul Pierce, Iverson, Jermaine O'Neal, Nowitzki, Peja, Ron Artest, etc.

You can easily make the arguement McGrady isn't even in the top 10

[supraman_2]

Here's 6 better:

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Shaq
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd

I'm not even counting Paul Pierce, Iverson, Jermaine O'Neal, Nowitzki, Peja, Ron Artest, etc.

You can easily make the arguement McGrady isn't even in the top 10
Well take Kobe off that list and LeBron, Kobe is too selfish to be in the top ten
He is definately not as consistant as he was and he doesn't improve the players around him. It's the Kobe show in LA

[looozer]

Neither one fits, though, is my point. I think.

The shape of the NBA is really sad nowadays. How many GMs know what they're doing? Four?
Not that many?

It's all about the best player for the best position and team chemistry. This is precisely why the Pistons won the championship and not the Lakers. In general, NBA players are too out of touch with the fundamentals. They dick around for 36 minutes and sometimes show up to play in the last 12. It's me me me, all about individual stats, scoring titles, etc. However, people seldom try to play team basketball. They focus on SportsCenter and highlight dunks, alley-oops and stuff, not on made shots. Simplicity can be elegant and beautiful, but it doesn't sell here. This is why we lost the Olympics.


Well take Kobe off that list and LeBron, Kobe is too selfish to be in the top ten
He is definately not as consistant as he was and he doesn't improve the players around him. It's the Kobe show in LA
Kobe is a better player than T-Mac. At least T-Mac has someone who he can give the rock to. Kobe has to do most of the scoring himself. Anyway, think Rip Hamilton is better than either of them.

[grungefan21]

Well take Kobe off that list and LeBron, Kobe is too selfish to be in the top ten
He is definately not as consistant as he was and he doesn't improve the players around him. It's the Kobe show in LA

Lets look at the stats this season shall we? Kobe: 26.8 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 6.9 apg

McGrady is averaging 21.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, and 5.3 apg.

Looks like Kobe averages more assists than McGrady. Personally I think Kobe is selfish and I hate the Lakers with a passion but he's still a better player than McGrady hands down. McGrady is just as selfish if not more selfish than Kobe. You remember when he played for Orlando right?


LeBron is averaging 25.1 ppg, 6.7 rpg, and 6.8 apg.

McGrady is averaging 21.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, and 5.3 apg.

And in case you forgot, LeBron will be 20 years old at the end of the month.

I wonder who the better player is?

[Illmatic]

When McGrady played for Orlando, Kobe had that guy...Shakeel O'Neel? I don't know how to spell it.

And most of Kobe's assists come when he's trying to compensate for his own selfishness by passing to teammates unnecessarily. He's another guy who has no idea how to involve his teammates.

It's all about the best player for the best position and team chemistry. This is precisely why the Pistons won the championship and not the Lakers. In general, NBA players are too out of touch with the fundamentals. They dick around for 36 minutes and sometimes show up to play in the last 12. It's me me me, all about individual stats, scoring titles, etc. However, people seldom try to play team basketball. They focus on SportsCenter and highlight dunks, alley-oops and stuff, not on made shots. Simplicity can be elegant and beautiful, but it doesn't sell here. This is why we lost the Olympics.

I don't even think it's fundamentals that are the main problem. Players are shifted around so quickly that teams are never able to mesh like they used to. They never learn their strengths and weaknesses and never bond, they're simply thrown into the fire and forced to fend for themselves, which is where most of the selfishness and lack of team play in the NBA comes from. Teams like Dallas and San Antonio and Detroit mostly keep their core intact, which is why they've been successful in recent years.

[Twitch]

I agree looozer, Yao is definetly one of the most overrated players in the NBA. Over 7ft tall but he is so weak that he is useless in the paint. Also, he is too much of a pansy to go after rebounds. Since he is manhandled by anyone that guards him, he can't score or rebound. Also, his bpg has dropped tramatically this year.

(Nash = my favorite player in the league)

[looozer]

When McGrady played for Orlando, Kobe had that guy...Shakeel O'Neel? I don't know how to spell it.

And most of Kobe's assists come when he's trying to compensate for his own selfishness by passing to teammates unnecessarily. He's another guy who has no idea how to involve his teammates.

I don't even think it's fundamentals that are the main problem. Players are shifted around so quickly that teams are never able to mesh like they used to. They never learn their strengths and weaknesses and never bond, they're simply thrown into the fire and forced to fend for themselves, which is where most of the selfishness and lack of team play in the NBA comes from. Teams like Dallas and San Antonio and Detroit mostly keep their core intact, which is why they've been successful in recent years.
Very true. In fact, Dallas improved its team last year, but was worse than the year before simply becuase bringing in Walker and Jamison threw off the team chemistry until they meshed with the team.

You're right about Kobe too. I think about a friend of mine who is a ballhog in soccer. He will dribble through 2 defenders, draw a third and a fourth, and then pass it because he's about to lose the ball. He still holds the ball too long and is lucky to find the open man. Then, the person is guaranteed a goal becuase guess what... the entire defense is keyed in on him (and stupidly I might add). He claims that he's unselfish because he passes, but he makes 30 yard runs without passing until absolutely necessary. Very Kobe-like. Still, I think Kobe is more skilled than T-Mac, even if his decisions are stupid. Anyway, I assume you're named after the Sonic Youth song. :thumb:


Twitch, I don't remember if I listed Nash as one of my favorites, but he is a phenomenon. He's really fun to watch, and I greatly prefer him to Jason Kidd. Plus, he had that cool shirt at the 2003 All-Star game.

[Illmatic]

Very true. In fact, Dallas improved its team last year, but was worse than the year before simply becuase bringing in Walker and Jamison threw off the team chemistry until they meshed with the team.

That, and Don Nelson has no idea how to set up a decent 8 (or 9, or 10) man rotation.

[supraman_2]

Lets look at the stats this season shall we? Kobe: 26.8 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 6.9 apg

McGrady is averaging 21.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, and 5.3 apg.

Looks like Kobe averages more assists than McGrady. Personally I think Kobe is selfish and I hate the Lakers with a passion but he's still a better player than McGrady hands down. McGrady is just as selfish if not more selfish than Kobe. You remember when he played for Orlando right?

Stats don't equal wins both teams are in the same position in their divisions altho Lakers over Clippers (by 1 game) and Golden State isn't anything to brag about. I never said T-Mac was better than Kobe let's just say Kobe has proved himself more often. Also when you have the ball 60% of the time how can Kobe not have better stats? I don't remember what T-Mac stats were when he was a rookie but I recall he wasn't doing that bad. Kobe has to pass the ball sometime so he doesn't get called for hogging all the time. You recall Lakers-Pistons Kobe would go on a shooting rampage but miss almost everything he threw up. He's gotta let the other players play so maybe they can win some games or help his guys improve so he doesn't have to make everything

[looozer]

Here is some food for thought...

I would consider efficiency to be the benchmark of a good player. Here is the formula (from NBA.com):
(PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G
Kobe is 8th in the league, T-Mac is 25th.

However, Kobe leads the league in turnovers. Good assist numbers, but HORRIBLE assist/turnover ratio. Getting greedy and making lucky dishes? Yes. Also, consider that Kobe can dish to Odom or Butler, or potentially Mihm for a made basket. T-Mac has fewer options.

Kobe shoots 39% from the floor, and 34.1% from behind the arc
By comparison, T-Mac shoots 40.9% from the floor and 28.3% from behind the arc.

This would lead one to believe that Kobe is a better shooter who takes difficult shots, whereas T-Mac is more of a slasher. However, T-Mac continually jacks threes. When he is hot, he is hot (vs Spurs), but his percentage is DISMAL for a shooting guard. I'd want to have Kobe shooting with the game on the line. Kobe is also a better free throw shooter (81.2% vs 73.8%). He can hurt you more ways in the clutch (by you, I mean the other team). However, he can also hurt you (being the Lakers) more in the clutch. You might want him on the line, but if he's going to be anything other than shooting or getting fouled, he is not the man you want.

Essentially, Kobe is the ultimate shooter in the league. That's his role, and that's all he does. He has the skills to create for himself and teammates, but is too selfish to do the latter, unless through necessity. His erratic shooting and passing cause turnovers. T-Mac is not as good of a shooter, but he makes better decisions (except for jacking up threes like the world will end unless he makes one) than Kobe does. As to who is a better player, that is debatable. Both are phenomenally talented athletes who are capable of extraordinary things.

Personally, I would say that Kobe is more skilled, but if I were creating a TEAM with my choice of better players to share roles and play positions, I would likely choose T-Mac over Kobe. However, if I had my choice, I would take neither as a shooting guard and instead go with Ray Allen.

[boss]

Kobe is a better player than T-Mac. At least T-Mac has someone who he can give the rock to. Kobe has to do most of the scoring himself. Anyway, think Rip Hamilton is better than either of them.

Kobe and T-mac own hamilton
He's a good player but he doesnt come to close to where kobe and t-mac are

[Illmatic]

Essentially, Kobe is the ultimate shooter in the league.

Whoa, are you kidding me? Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Michael Redd, Rashard Lewis, and Rip Hamilton are all much better shooters.

[looozer]

Whoa, are you kidding me? Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Michael Redd, Rashard Lewis, and Rip Hamilton are all much better shooters.
Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, and Michael Redd are purer shooters. In fact, so is Peja Stojakovic. Kobe can make more difficult shots. He is the kind of guy who would lose a 3-point shootout to them, but he could win a game of horse against anyone because of his ability to make extremely difficult shots. I guess what I meant is that Kobe is a more versatile shooter.

[looozer]

Kobe and T-mac own hamilton
He's a good player but he doesnt come to close to where kobe and t-mac are
Kobe and T-Mac can create for themselves better, but Hamilton will hit the J all day. As long as he has someone to give him that shot, he's as pure as spring rain.

[Illmatic]

As long as we can agree that Larry Bird would be the greatest H-O-R-S-E player ever >_>

(hey, why doesn't the NBA add H-O-R-S-E to the all-star weekend? would anyone be opposed to this?)