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Scarred4Life
07-16-2004, 04:49 PM
Since theres always a million questions about PAs, please post all of them in here so we dont have half the first page asking whats a good PA for X amount of dollars. :thumb:

AfroDrummer16
07-16-2004, 05:02 PM
ok bands got about 1500 bucks for our p.a. system, mics,mic stands,mic cables ect.
were going to need atleast a 10 channel mixer....our band has 2 guitarists,bassist and drummer, the guitarists and bassist amps all have 120 watts, so kind of mics.p.a.,ect do you guys think i should get that would be loud enough and good quality....?

Aes820
07-17-2004, 04:20 AM
Check out the packaged PA setups on musiciansfriend.com
You should be able to get something really decent for $1500. 600 watts, along with stands, mics and etc. Look at brands like Yamaha.

Jamie
07-17-2004, 04:32 AM
right, so my band need something to run a microphone through. We have less than £100 though.

I thought about buying a small guitar amp (10"- or 12" speaker) to use but the people in the guitar forum say it breaks it, and the people on the bass forum say it would break it if i used a bass amp.

So my other idea was to get a really small power amp (like 40 watts or something) and buy a 10" speaker to go with it. But theres one problem, the least power, power amp i have found is about 150 watts.

My third idea (which i dont think works) would be to set it up something like this:

microphone > DI box > 1-2 channel tiny mixer > 10" speaker

would that work?


Thanks very much if i get a reply:)

Any ideas?

Aes820
07-17-2004, 04:50 AM
I saw this thread in the guitar forum. i was about to post in it but i'll answere here instead.

There is nothing wrong with running a microphone into a guitar amp.. in the short term that is. After a while the amp will just die. And it'll sound like it is full of sand. Give it about 6 - 8 months or so.
So. You can do it. But dont do it with your good amp.
Go to a pawn shop and buy an old POS that you dont care about if it gets wrecked. It'll do the job until you can save up for something a little more suitable.

The poweramp + speaker option would work. But it'll be cheaper to just go with an old second hand guitar amp.

Your third idea won't work. You'll need a poweramp for any decent amount of volume.

When I first started off with my band, we used the old guitar amp. Lots of people do... Just remember, dont use your good amp.

Jamie
07-17-2004, 07:17 PM
right, and if there are no pawn shops where you live?

so what about bass amps? does it affect them?

Screamin_Demon_Auz
07-17-2004, 07:32 PM
I have this monitor/compact PA system....
http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemID=17285&TempID=2&Method=2&CategoryID=0&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNum=0&DepartmentID=0&DepartmentKeeper=&pagesize=10&SortMethod=0&Word1=galaxy+audio&Contains=%22%2Agalaxy%2A%22+AND+%22%2Aaudio%2A%22&Search_Type=SEARCH&GroupCode=nonetodaythanks


Would this work to be heard live and over a band during practice?

Aes820
07-18-2004, 01:48 AM
right, and if there are no pawn shops where you live?

so what about bass amps? does it affect them?
Ebay, or the classified in the newspaper.
It's the same deal with bass amps.


Screamin_Demon_Auz: It looks small.. But it says it is 146 watts and 144dB... So that kinda gives me the imprssion that it could be pretty loud.
I say, give it a go. It should be fine for jamming and practice..
If it is struggling to keep up.. Just pick it up onto a desk or something, so it is a litle higher and closer to your ears.

It probably wouldn't be enough for gigging tho.

Jamie
07-18-2004, 05:15 AM
I've checked ebay, theres nothing. Its all over-priced.

Ill get the new ad-trader then and have a look in there

AfroDrummer16
07-18-2004, 12:56 PM
ok this is what ive come up with, tell me what you guys think, and if im missing anything at all that i would need to perform live with a pa system PLZ PLZ tell me...http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040718112121068102051115526489/g=live/s=speakers/shop/viewcart/

Aes820
07-18-2004, 05:18 PM
^ That link points to your shopping cart. Because of the cookies on your computer, you'll be the only one who is able to see what is in it. Why dont you list what you were thinking of getting.

AfroDrummer16
07-19-2004, 05:15 PM
1)Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-PRO Mixer
2)JBL SF25 Dual 15" 2-Way Speaker Cabinet (2)
3)Shure SM58 Mic (3)
4) Mic Stand, Mic Clips, Cables...

Is there anything i would need at ALL to perform live with a band that I havent listed? and what do you guys think about this equipment?

me_is_p
07-19-2004, 05:56 PM
not a bad board (not the best, but...), looks good.

If you're using acoustic guitars (or putting any instrument into the board), and you are any distance from the board, I would buy a DI box for each instrument, and a mic cable for each DI box.

:-P at

Aes820
07-19-2004, 06:28 PM
A very good desk..
Put you'll need a poweramp to push the speakers mate.

Why not downgrade the mixer you are using.
And invest a few dollars in a good poweramp.
Depending on the wattage handeling of the speakers get yourself a stereo poweramp to suit. Say if the speakers are 300 watts each.. get a 2x300 watt poweramp.
Look on Ebay for some decently priced poweramps.
Run it off a mixer like this one:
http://www.behringer.com/UB1222FX-PRO/index.cfm?lang=ENG

R6Elite
07-20-2004, 11:59 AM
I tried searching for info about the following items, but didn't find anything. Do you think that this setup could handle small gigs powering vocals AND drums?

1. Behringer PMX660M Europower Powered Mixer (2 x 300 watts or 600 bridged) - http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040720104244024017203011599030/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/631250/

2. 2x Behringer B1520 Eurolive 15 Inch 2-Way Loudspeaker - http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040720104244024017203011599030/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/600592/

Thanks,
R6Elite

Aes820
07-20-2004, 06:00 PM
^ Yeah. That setup would be awesome.

But you might want to double check the wattage at differnt loadings with the powered mixer. the speakers are 200w RMS @ 8 ohms. And the Mixer is 300w RMS @ 4 ohms.
Now this should be fine as it is.. Although if the speakers were only 4 ohm they you may risk damaging them.
But, at this point, seeing as the speakers are 8 ohms. The wattage from the powered mixer will be a little less than it's full 300 watts. And so in that case running 200w speakers off them should be fine.

Just, dont run it up loud all the way. Although, considering it's amount of headroom, I doubt you ever will be.

AfroDrummer16
07-20-2004, 07:03 PM
ok tell me what you guys think about this, and if its everything i would need to perform live with a band.
1)Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-PRO Mixer
2)Behringer EuroLive B1500X PA Loudspeaker x2
3)Behringer EuroPower EP1500 Power Amp
4) Shure SM58S Mic with Switch
5) Musiciansfriend, cables,mic stands,clips...

Aes820
07-20-2004, 07:31 PM
The poweramp is 2x700 watts. The speakers are only 300 watts @ 4 ohms.
It wont be suitable.
You'll have to get some speakers that are capable of handling the wattage.
Or, more preferably, Get a different poweramp. One that is rated at 2x300 watts while at 4 ohms.

AfroDrummer16
07-20-2004, 08:00 PM
i couldnt find any Behringer power amps that size, there all way to powerfull, any ideas?

Aes820
07-20-2004, 08:29 PM
It doesn't have to be Behringer.

Here's one that is 2x300 watts into 4 ohms.

http://www.peavey.com/products/shop_online/browse.cfm/action/details/item/00511500/wc/2A2C1/fam/2C/tcode/1/v.cfm

Alternatively, there should be a whole heap of poweramps floating around on eBay. For nice and cheap.

SubsonicWax
07-20-2004, 09:56 PM
Just to be slightly helpful: A good musician site for cheap (sometimes) is www.zzounds.com
Check it out and tell me if Im wrong.

FatherKeeL
07-21-2004, 03:17 PM
why would singing over a guitar amp ruin the amp?

its just an audio signal right?

is the signal that a mic produces so different to the guitars signal?

Aes820
07-21-2004, 05:23 PM
^ It'll ruin it after time. It is normally fine to run vocals through a guitar amp. But after a while, (about 9 months or so) your amp will sound like crap.
As in, dont use your 'good' amp.

The range of frequencies of the human voice, and the levels of the vocal mic constantly overdriving the input stages of the guitar amp, does eventually take its toll.

For those in bands who are a bit strapped for cash and cant afford a proper PA. Just go to a second hand store and buy an old cheap guitar amp. Use that until you can afford something more permanent.

AfroDrummer16
07-21-2004, 05:55 PM
It doesn't have to be Behringer.

Here's one that is 2x300 watts into 4 ohms.

http://www.peavey.com/products/shop_online/browse.cfm/action/details/item/00511500/wc/2A2C1/fam/2C/tcode/1/v.cfm

Alternatively, there should be a whole heap of poweramps floating around on eBay. For nice and cheap.

Nady SPA 850 Pro Stereo Power Amp, would this work okay?

Aes820
07-21-2004, 06:15 PM
Yep. The Nady 850 Looks pretty good to me.

Now. With regards to poweramps just some general advice.
1. NEVER run them without speakers (or a load) attached.
2. Don't bridge them unless you are certain you've got the loading and wattage for the speakers correct.
3. Run the volume of the poweramp up nearly all the way, all the time. Turn it up full then turn it down just slightly if it is too noisy while up full. Use the output level on the mixer to control overall volume.
Dont have the output level on the mixer all the way up while only having the poweramps volume down low, this is an incorrect gain structure and you can experience some major problems with clipping (which can burn out your speakers).
Turn up the poweramp and leave it up. Use your mixers levels to control your overall volume.

FatherKeeL
07-21-2004, 06:19 PM
so what if you run a keyboard over a guitar amp... same effect?

Aes820
07-21-2004, 06:35 PM
^ I think you should have no worries with running a keyboard through a guitar amp. Although, just keep the output levels on the keyboard low to avoid continually overdriving the input of the guitar amp.. As it is this that causes the damage over time.

AfroDrummer16
07-21-2004, 07:07 PM
Thanks for all the help, Aes820...

herobehindthemsk
07-25-2004, 07:57 PM
my band just purchased a squier 4 PA system and it was a good investment....but, every time we try to get it loud enough to practice it screams like a b*T*h and we have no idea why does any one have any suggestions?

Aes820
07-25-2004, 09:31 PM
Either, You are getting a feedback loop coming through via the microphone. Or, it is a crappy quality mocrophone which is causing something called microphonics.

Try standing further away from (or even behind) the speakers while you've got the microphone.
Or if that doesnt work, you might have to invest in a higher quality microphone. One that is less prone to microphonic squealing.

herobehindthemsk
07-26-2004, 08:58 AM
ya that is probobally the problem we do have cheap mic's i just guess were going to have to suck it up and get a better one ....about how much should i spend for a decent mic?

Aes820
07-26-2004, 06:49 PM
Um. Maybe put aside about 50 - 80 bucks for a semi decent Mic.

Look at brands like Studiomaster. Their KM series is pretty good.
And priced around the 80 dollar mark if I remember correctally.

loki_cmr
07-26-2004, 11:08 PM
im looking for a cheap yet efficient and durable PA system that can be heard over 2 guitars, bass and drums playing at slightly loud volume levels. All i need to plug into it is 1 microphone. Im thinking maybe something around 100watts.

someone suggested the fender passport (i think it was the 150) and it seemed good but a bit expensive. The same person also recommended the kustom profile also seemed good. What are you opinions on these two pieces?

herobehindthemsk
07-27-2004, 12:16 PM
go with the squier 4 pa system by fender it rocks and is well worth the money ......myself and my bandmates (well just me and the bassist because the drummer is cheap) just purchased it and it is well worth the money.

dg_88
07-30-2004, 12:51 PM
Does anyone have any experience with the SoundTech S20... it is only $250 on music123... http://www.music123.com/SoundTech-S20-i131742.music ... just asking this for the singer of my band bc he is looking to buy a cheap PA system that is goin to be loud enough to be heard over us... thanks for any help...

AfroDrummer16
07-30-2004, 05:59 PM
how do the mixers and power amps plug into the speaker cabs? i know this is a dumb question sorry guys, my band is geting a p.a. so I was jw, do i need to buy speaker and mixer cables or something?

Aes820
07-31-2004, 05:15 AM
Does anyone have any experience with the SoundTech S20... it is only $250 on music123... http://www.music123.com/SoundTech-S20-i131742.music ... just asking this for the singer of my band bc he is looking to buy a cheap PA system that is goin to be loud enough to be heard over us... thanks for any help...
Yeah.. that looks pretty good. It may struggle to keep up at some larger gigs but it should suit practise / jamming / and 'backyard party' sized gigs quite nicely.

Aes820
07-31-2004, 05:25 AM
how do the mixers and power amps plug into the speaker cabs? i know this is a dumb question sorry guys, my band is geting a p.a. so I was jw, do i need to buy speaker and mixer cables or something?
All the mics (or the line outs from the amps) go into the mixer. Mixer sets the levels.
The two main outputs of the mixer each run into the respective left and right channels of a stereo poweramp. The left and right outputs of the poweramp both run to each speaker.

What type of connections these bits of equipment use all depends on the equipment.
Some poweramps and speakers use 1/4" TS plugs.
Some poweramps just have the screw on pole connections.
Some higher end stuff have specially designed Neutrick connectors.. Which are an industry standard.

Same with the speakers. The majority use 1/4" TS, yet some of the higher end gear use Neutrick. Although Neutrick connections are usually used for speaker cabinets that can be split for biamping.. but that is something else all together.

Then again.. You can buy powered speaker cabs... which are like a speaker cab and a poweramp all built in. In which case you wont need a poweramp. Just run the outputs of the mixer into the input of the powered cab and that'll do.

But.. Also.. Quite often you can get powered mixers. Which are like mixers and poweramps all built into the one unit.. So all you'll need then is some speaker cabs.. Setups like these are extremely common. and extrememly popular. Because of their ease of use.

AfroDrummer16
07-31-2004, 02:35 PM
well the speakers cabs im thinkin about getting dont have the built in power amp, the mixer isnt a power mixer, so do the speakers, mixers, power amps come with cables i need to hook them up to each other? ill post what im getting later today, thanks

AfroDrummer16
07-31-2004, 03:34 PM
what cables would i need to connect this stuff together...? thanks...
1) Nady XA-1100 Pro Stereo Power Amp
2)Peavey PV 215 Dual 15" 2-Way Speaker Cabinet (2)
3)Behringer Eurodesk SL2442FX-PRO Mixer

Aes820
07-31-2004, 11:50 PM
From the mixer to the power amp;
Any female to male XLR lead will do the job. A couple of microphone cables would be fine:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040731222233203214146048605358/g=live/s=amps/search/detail/base_pid/330372/
Although it might be worthwhile getting some that are a suitable length for what you need.
Using 2 15 foot mic lead probably would be too suitable if you only need them 2 foot long.
If you cannot find them that short.. You may have to get them made up for you (or make 'em up yourself)

For the poweramp to the speakers;
The poweramp uses binding post outputs.. So you dont really have to worry about the connectors for that.. Just get yourself a couple of good 16 guage speaker cable, cut off and strip the ends of each wire. Connect them onto the binding posts cleanly and solidly. and screw down the binding posts firmly. Take note of their polarity.

Then.. Whatever the speakers require in the way of an input (either a 1/4" plug or a Speakon connector - although most likely the 1/4" plug) just connect on onto the other end of each speaker cable.

Or... you could just get something like this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040731222233203214146048605358/g=live/s=amps/search/detail/base_pid/330557/
Get two of those, one for each speaker. Then cut off the unused end with a pair of wirecutters, and strip the wire for the bindings posts..

Ohh yeah. and I noticed in my last post i was going on about Neutrick conenctors. Sorry, but by this I meant 'Speakon' connectors. Sorry for the confusion.
But it is just Neutrick is a brand that makes Speakon Connectors.

dg_88
08-01-2004, 12:43 PM
Yeah.. that looks pretty good. It may struggle to keep up at some larger gigs but it should suit practise / jamming / and 'backyard party' sized gigs quite nicely.

Awesome!... thanks a lot Aes820

AfroDrummer16
08-01-2004, 12:59 PM
Thanks again Aes820, although the first link doesnt take me to a product...

Aes820
08-01-2004, 05:37 PM
Thanks again Aes820, although the first link doesnt take me to a product...
Strange. It works fine for me..
Dont worry.. all it is, is a link to a microphone cable.. Any microphone cable would work.. but the shorter the better.

dg_88: No worries mate.. glad to help.

Blink_Fan315
08-02-2004, 08:37 PM
Alright everyone my band is small right now just starting to write songs, Only one done right now but i need to know what im going to need for small gigs like PA System wise, and how much its going to cost, because were going to play in my friends basement (we built a stage) and at my other friends house with his band, if u could get me a link or a website or something that would be very helpfull Thanks!

Aes820
08-02-2004, 08:46 PM
^ Hi.. I should've just said this in your other thread.. but nevermind:

Look around for packaged setups. Sometimes you can get packages that include the powerd mixer, speakers, microphones and etc.

Something like this would be pretty good:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040802194052152091009009719110/g=live/s=packaged/search/detail/base_pid/630426/

Or, if you are on a tighter budget, this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040802194052152091009009719110/g=live/s=packaged/search/detail/base_pid/630130/

But look (and ask) around. Both in music stores, and online with sites like Musiciansfriend.

HAZCHEM
08-02-2004, 10:52 PM
Is there any online music stores in australia that are good.

My band and i need a PA to hear 3 vocal mic's over
100 watt guitart amp x2
100 watt bass amp (all combo's)
and drums.

Hopefully it could be used for smaller gigs, but we are all tight for cash so cheap = good.

Blink_Fan315
08-02-2004, 10:53 PM
Thanks i was thinking about that last one, or one for 60 bucks more that has 240 watts

Aes820
08-02-2004, 11:18 PM
HAZCHEM: Sorry mate. I'm unaware of any decent Aussie music equip sites.
But, for your needs, check out the brand Ashton.
They've got setups very much like the ones that I linked to in my last post. And because they are Australian made, the price is fairly reasonable.
The 4100 as a starting point perhaps (4 channel, 100 watt mixer w/ speakers)..
Most local music stores should stock Ashtons, or at least be able to get them in for you.

Blink Fan: I think for just 60 bucks more, the model which you mentioned would probably be the better option.

GenerixDrummer
08-03-2004, 12:27 AM
Ok my band just bought http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040802230602068224124178780874/g=live/s=packaged/search/detail/base_pid/630544/ That pa system.We have 2 mics plugged in and the guitar.We are unplugging it tomorrow but like the mic volume is up all the way then we have the master volume almost half but when we turn it up more it makes a annoying *** sound.We have the speakers way in the back of the garage by the drums thenthe mics way at the front the mics are all the way up on the stands and it still makes noise.So is there anything way we can have the pa up all the way so its louder but with out the annoying *** sound please help me out please.If you would rather help me out on aim instant message me at Generixdrums please help me out

Aes820
08-03-2004, 05:42 PM
^ Okay. Try out a few things.

Fist off, just turn the mic channel down a bit. Put the mic volume at about 3/4. Then you'll hopefully be able to main volume a bit more before getting feedback.

Secondly, check your EQing. Mid range frequencies tend to feedback easier than others, so roll off your mids slightly. Or.. just make sure that your EQing hasn't got any extreme settings in it. As in, the Bass Mid and/or High knobs arn't all turned all the way up.

Third, you may be experiencing something called microphonics. Caused by crappy quality microphones. investing in some better quality mics will help you out.
Although this is unlikely to be the case, as the first two suggestions will be more likely to fix your problem.

Lastly, Read your manual!! It should contain plently of usueful information about how to correctly use your PA. If you dont read your manual then you might be missing some important piece of information that is preventing you from making the most out of your PA.

herobehindthemsk
08-05-2004, 12:09 PM
ok....my band just recently bought a PA system and i was wondering how to hook my guitar up to it without the PA squealing...i know it is a stupid question but some one has to ask it

moaner
08-05-2004, 04:01 PM
well...

I presume yhou are not foolish enough to put ur guitar straight into the PA, i mean, thats not wise...

Make sure that the amp n speaker are NOT facing you, and if possible ur not standing too near, sometimes not possible but this should help

Edit for typo

Aes820
08-05-2004, 07:03 PM
ok....my band just recently bought a PA system and i was wondering how to hook my guitar up to it without the PA squealing...i know it is a stupid question but some one has to ask it
It's quite alright to plug an electric/acoustic guitar diect into a PA. Just run the acoustics pickup output into the mixer. And adjust the levels and EQing to suit.
Some people prefer to DI the acoustic before the mixer. But I've found that the is really only necessary while doing long cable runs (ie, the stage area is a fair distance from the mixer) or if the results you get out of running the guitar diect are not up to scratch.

You wont get very good results if you are running an electric guitar direct into a PA. For this it'll be better to either run your electric into an amp first and then mic up the amps speaker and run that into the PA. Or if the amp has got a 'line out' feature, using that instead.

herobehindthemsk
08-06-2004, 08:51 AM
ok thanks mayb ill just try micing up the amp then

i'm_soooo_emo
08-06-2004, 10:09 AM
Ok my band just bought http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7...ase_pid/630544/ That pa system.We have 2 mics plugged in and the guitar.We are unplugging it tomorrow but like the mic volume is up all the way then we have the master volume almost half but when we turn it up more it makes a annoying *** sound.We have the speakers way in the back of the garage by the drums thenthe mics way at the front the mics are all the way up on the stands and it still makes noise.So is there anything way we can have the pa up all the way so its louder but with out the annoying *** sound please help me out please.If you would rather help me out on aim instant message me at Generixdrums please help me out

The problem is that the speakers are behind the microphone. The speakers need to be in front of EVERYTHING so that it doesn't feedback. Move your speakers and you shoudln't have a problem. Also the size of the room may depend on how loud ytou can turn your pa up. If its a small room you wont be able to turn it up so loud because it will feed back.

AfroDrummer16
08-08-2004, 12:49 PM
ok, my band needs to know how big of a p.a. system we will need...we have two guitarists both have amps at 120 wats, and a bassist with an amp at 120 wats, and me the drummer, how many wats do you suggests the pa cabs should have?

also, what would be a good wireless sytem for this headset... http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040808120821068102051115913748/g=live/g=live/search/bigpid/base_id/42416/ and what cables would i need to hook it up to the p.a. system?

Aes820
08-08-2004, 05:54 PM
^ a 2x300 watt powered mixer should see you suited.

HAZCHEM
08-08-2004, 06:39 PM
HAZCHEM: Sorry mate. I'm unaware of any decent Aussie music equip sites.
But, for your needs, check out the brand Ashton.
They've got setups very much like the ones that I linked to in my last post. And because they are Australian made, the price is fairly reasonable.
The 4100 as a starting point perhaps (4 channel, 100 watt mixer w/ speakers)..
Most local music stores should stock Ashtons, or at least be able to get them in for you.


My Amps an Ashton, does pretty well for $600 too.
I'll have to have a look, thanks.

Aes820
08-08-2004, 07:07 PM
^ Look in second hand stores too.
Browsing through a local Cash Converters store for second hand PA gear can sometimes pay off.

HAZCHEM
08-08-2004, 07:50 PM
I live in a the country so the Cash Converters (or equivelent stores) are pretty crap.
I'm gunna have a look in the Trading Post Too.

AfroDrummer16
08-09-2004, 04:43 PM
^ a 2x300 watt powered mixer should see you suited.

who was that directed to?

Aes820
08-09-2004, 05:43 PM
It was directed at you my good friend.

Sorry, but i cant be of too much help with the headset tho.
But. I always go for Shure. I know that is a good brand and you should be pretty safe with them.

AfroDrummer16
08-10-2004, 10:01 AM
oh alright thanks, that sounds good then cause were thinkin about geting some peavey speaker cabs that can handle 500 watts each,

Bass+Fingers+Amp=Groove
08-10-2004, 12:51 PM
ok power amps the ones designed for drving PAs, naddy,peavy, etc... could i use one of these power amps to for runing just a bass cab, like Bass--amp speaker out---> nady 800 watt power amp--->410 bass cab.

thanks.

Aes820
08-10-2004, 06:06 PM
^ Yeah. you can.
But keep a keen eye out for clipping. The lower frequecies with bass guitar suck up headroom like you wouldnt believe. But I think with 800 watts you should be alright. But still, look for a power amp with clip indicators on the front of it.

Do you wish to use it in stereo?
Becasue I'm guessing you are thinking of running it via a stereo preamp, right?
But if you can only use the 4x10 in mono...(i dont know if you can or not. I spose it depends on the cab) Then you are going to have to get a poweramp that can be bridged.

So if the 4x10 is 8 ohms. Get a 2x400 watt @ 4 ohm poweramp, that can be bridged. So, when bridged, it'll pump out 800 watts at 8 ohms.

I hope this makes sense. Let me know if you need it explained further.

EDIT:
Ohhh. no no.
Wait a minute.
DO NOT run additional poweramps off the speaker output of other amps.
You will very quickly cook the input stages of the poweramp if you do. And cause major damage to possibly both amps.
Use the poweramp with a dedicated bass preamp.. Or if your amp has a 'preamp output' or 'slave output' use that.. Dont use the speaker output.

daaaaaaveeeee
08-12-2004, 07:38 AM
im looking to buy speaker cables and stage snakes.. what should i look for?
is there a difference between different gauge cables?
how do i determine the quality of a cable or snake?

BlinkRockr41
08-12-2004, 01:55 PM
Ok could somebody explain to me how the wattage and the ohms are supposed to fit together between a powered mixer and 2 speakers? If a mixer has 150W output, I'm assuming this means mono? And if it is mono, does that mean each speaker only gets 75W of power? But if its 150W stereo that means each speaker gets 150W of power right? So is 150W stereo the same as 300W mono? And some questions on speakers, if a speaker is receiving 150W from the mixer, that means the speaker must be at least 150W power handling if you intend to turn the mixer all the way up right? And what is continuous power, program, and peak? Last question, what does brigged mean on a mixer?

Aes820
08-12-2004, 05:36 PM
im looking to buy speaker cables and stage snakes.. what should i look for?
is there a difference between different gauge cables?
how do i determine the quality of a cable or snake?
Different guages determin the cables efficiency.
Long cable runs with low guage - low quality cable will reduce your sound quality. The high end 'crisp' and low end 'thunk' of your tone will be the first to go.
It'll be best to stick with using high quality cables, for the best results.
Same thing goes for the connectors.

Good quality cables are most important between the poweramp and the speakers.. As this is the cables which do most of the work in carrying your signal. You can sometimes get away with using a slightly lower quality snake between the mixer and the poweramps (as long as you are happy with the quality that is). Except you'd want to have the connection between the poweramps and the speakers to be of the higest quality.

For my speakers, I use 16 guage Proel cables and Neutrik connectors. They've been cut to pretty much exactally the right length.

Aes820
08-12-2004, 06:24 PM
Ok could somebody explain to me how the wattage and the ohms are supposed to fit together between a powered mixer and 2 speakers? If a mixer has 150W output, I'm assuming this means mono? And if it is mono, does that mean each speaker only gets 75W of power? But if its 150W stereo that means each speaker gets 150W of power right? So is 150W stereo the same as 300W mono? And some questions on speakers, if a speaker is receiving 150W from the mixer, that means the speaker must be at least 150W power handling if you intend to turn the mixer all the way up right? And what is continuous power, program, and peak? Last question, what does brigged mean on a mixer?
Wow. so many questions.

First off. You'd want to check if the powered mixer is stereo or mono. If it is mono, then yes. it'll just be 150 watts. And driving two speaker cabs off the one mono amp, then each speaker cab will be receiving 75 watts.
Stereo powered mixer have two totally seperate mono amps sitting right next to each other. and if both the left and right part of the stereo amp put off 150 watts. then the amp would be rated at 300 watts total. Although they are also also commonly rated as having 2x150 watts. Which is essentially the same thing.
If a stereo amp is rated at 150 watts, then I'd assume that this means 2x75 watts.

With the speakers, their wattage rating is the indication of their maximum RMS power handling. Usually you would want to match this with what the poweramp puts out.
Except... it is really not uncommon for setups to contain poweramps which provide more power than what the speakers can handle.
300 watt poweramp through a 250 watt speaker for example.

This is done for the reason of 'headroom'. The poweramp will be able to provide plently of power to the speakers so you can run them up loud without any indication of clipping (clipping is what happens when the poweramp is run up too loud for it to handle). everything above this maximum level is cut off by the poweramp and ignored. You will get an unpleasant sounding distortion as your signal is clipped out and (more importantly) your poweramp, while it is clipping, will be sending a solid voltage straight through your speakers. And this can very easilly burn them out.

So. Having a more powerful poweramp means that you'll have a little bit of headroom spare. So you can run it up loud without any risk of clipping. But bare in mind that with the extra wattage you do run the risk of blowing your speakers if you push them up loud enough and push them past their peak handling.
So.. It is kind of a trade off between the risk of buringing out speakers due to a lack of headroom and blowing them because of too much headroom.

A 150 watt poweramp will provide 150 watts RMS. In most cases it'll be best to match that with a 150 watt RMS speaker.

RMS = Root mean Square. Think of it as the average amount of power that the amplifier can produce under normal conditions. Similar, and also often refered to as Program power.

Continuous power = the wattage that the amp can cleanly produce while producing one continous tone. Pump a straight 440hz sine wave through a 50 watt amp. And you'll get one solid tone out of the amp. Cleanly. At 50 watts.

This is differnt to Program power. Because real music isnt just one continous tone. It contains many changes in loudness and many differnt frequencies.. on occasions it'll peak well over 50 watts. But it'll spend just as much time producing more than 50 watts than it would producing less than 50 watts. But still, it'll have an 'average' power output of 50 watts. AKA, 50 watts RMS.

Peak power is the absolute maximum output power that an amp can produce (or a speaker can handle) before damage (or clipping) occours. A 50 watt RMS amp may be able to peak upwards of 1000 watts.. But this peak may only be for one very brief instance.. And one again, the amp will be peaking above the RMS for the same amount of time that it would be below.

Same with speakers. a 50 watt speaker will be able to handle 50 watts RMS but maybe up to 500 watts peak. With speakers, this peak power handling describes their absolute maximum power handling capability before damage occours.

Now for Bridging.. Some stereo poweramps/powered mixers have the ability to be bridged. What this means is that you are taking the two individual left and right mono amps that are in a stereo amp and combining them into the one. The left channel would manage your signal as is, except what used to be the right channel would be switched to manage a negative version of your mono signal. And so, when pushed through a speaker, will provide twice as much wattage as just one of its channels would on its own.
So a 2x150 watt amp would provide 1x300 watts when bridged. But bare in mind that not all poweramps can be bridged.

I hope all this makes sense.

BlinkRockr41
08-12-2004, 06:54 PM
Thanks alot Aes820. Yeah it all makes perfect sense. I'm glad I now know this as our band will soon be buying a PA. Thanks for the help

daaaaaaveeeee
08-12-2004, 07:22 PM
thanks aes

Aes820
08-12-2004, 07:28 PM
Here's something handy to know about amps that can be bridged:

Bridge the amp and run a higher wattage low range driver off the bridged terminals. Then run a full range speaker off the left channel as you normally would, even if it wasnt bridged. Now rewire your other full range speaker so that it is out of phase (swap around the negative and positive terminals) and run it off the right channel as you normally would if it wasnt bridged.
Doing this can give you a 6db increase in volume off the same poweramp. An increase in volume that you would otherwise achive by using a poweramp with 4x as much output power.

But. You've just got to make sure that the speakers you use can handle the wattage. And that the total ohm loading on the poweramp isnt too small. As in, if the minimum loading for each channel is 4 ohms each. then use 8 ohm speakers all around.

BlinkRockr41
08-13-2004, 01:02 PM
I have another question. As I said before our band will soon be buying a PA. I play guitar and sing and have a 100W 112 combo. Our bassist sings and has a 120W 115 combo. We have practiced maybe a dozen times singing through our guitar amps. Would you suggest we buy a small cheap PA just to practice or a larger one for shows later in the future. And whatever would be better, what wattage will be needed.

moaner
08-13-2004, 03:14 PM
well, depends how soon you would be looking at gigging, and how big a gigs you would be looking at

If you are unlikely to be gigging in the near future It'd be good to look for a medium sized keyboard amp (2nd hand) to use, these handle vocals very well for practice

Aes820
08-14-2004, 06:59 AM
I have another question. As I said before our band will soon be buying a PA. I play guitar and sing and have a 100W 112 combo. Our bassist sings and has a 120W 115 combo. We have practiced maybe a dozen times singing through our guitar amps. Would you suggest we buy a small cheap PA just to practice or a larger one for shows later in the future. And whatever would be better, what wattage will be needed.
I think a 300 watt powered mixer and a couple of speaker cabs would be a good option. It will be more than enough for practising. And would even be able to stand up at some smaller (and perhaps even some mid sized) pub gigs. It should last you quite a while and see you easilly through the majority of situations.
I think if you invest in something decent now. It'll save you having to go through this all over again when the time comes to upgrade.

BlinkRockr41
08-15-2004, 07:18 PM
I think a 300 watt powered mixer and a couple of speaker cabs would be a good option. It will be more than enough for practising. And would even be able to stand up at some smaller (and perhaps even some mid sized) pub gigs. It should last you quite a while and see you easilly through the majority of situations.
I think if you invest in something decent now. It'll save you having to go through this all over again when the time comes to upgrade.
Yeah that sounds good. We're broke so we'll be waiting a while till we get it. I did want to make sure you realized the only thing we would be using the mixer for are 2 mics, cause our amps would be plenty right? (100W 112 Guitar Combo, 120W 115 Bass Combo) Or would that size of mixer be one that we mic'd the amps if the show was big enough? I think it would be wise to buy it in a package and buy the mics seperate if none are included. Do you have any suggestions for some good equipment? What are some quality mixers, speaker cabs, and mics? Also, how many people are you thinking, based and the size of our equipment, and the equipment you are suggesting, would be in the audience we are playing to? (How many people do you consider small to mid sized pub gigs) Thanks again.

Aes820
08-15-2004, 08:33 PM
Your amps should be alright as they are. There really shouldnt be a need to mic up the drum kit either.
You'd probably want to add on more speakers to you own amps (1x12 extension cab) before you get to the stage of running them into the PA.
But you can go either method. And running them into the PA would be simple if your amps have got a 'line out' feature. As in that case all you'll need is a cable to run it into the PA. You wont have to spend money on a mic.

But. when it comes to if there is a need for that or not. You are going to have to use your own judgement

But.. if you get a PA that can accomodate a set a drum kit and instrument mics at a later stage then you'll have room for upgrading later on.

When I say pub gig. I'm thinking to about up to about 150 people. But it depends on how noisy the place is. All you'd want is to get the speakers up onto stands. Having speakers at head height are going to be heard alot better than what they would if they were pointing at your audiences ankles.

I would strongly reccomed a packaged setup. When you buy individual componets you can quite easilly go over your budget. That is unless you find a real bargain.
I think there are Yamaha and Peavey packaged systems (that I think may include a couple of speaker stands and microphones) on Musicians friends that would be worthwhile taking a look at.

BlinkRockr41
08-16-2004, 07:48 PM
Thanks once again Aes820. I think you have finally answered all of my questions, thanks for the help. One more thing, the majority of PA packages seem to be either 200W or 400W, nothing inbetween, any suggestions?

Aes820
08-16-2004, 08:06 PM
There's plently of 300 watters going around:

http://www.andysmusiconline.com/product_p/samson_pa324.htm
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=333058&is=REG
http://www.elevation-music.com/jomx300wapom.html

But of course, if you can find a 400 watter that you think is of good quality and you can get for a reasonable price. Then of course you should go for it.

300 watts is a fair setup, for most situations. But of you can get something with more headroom for a reasonable price. Then why wouldn't you go for the model up.

EDIT:

Ohh sorry. I realise now you were asking for 300 watt packaged setups. Those links above are just to 300 watt powered mixers, not inclidng speakers and etc.

What I would suggest you do is to go to a local music store and tell them what you are after. Tell them that you are looking for a 300 watt powered mixer, plus a couple of speakers, stands microphones and all the cables.
I think if you talk to them about this you may find that they will be prepared to throw together several individual components in a kind've 'make your own' packaged setup deal. And should hopefully be able to do you a reasonable price on it also.
Especially if you tell them that you've seen some similar setups on some websites for X amount of dollars. And compare that price to what they are prepared to do for you.
See how you go with it.. Happy shopping!

BlinkRockr41
08-19-2004, 06:59 PM
Alright man. Thanks once again for all your help.

moaner
08-24-2004, 12:05 PM
My band is doing our firstgig soon, using the House PA, monitoring etc. but our own ampa and drum kit

My guitar amp is a 25w fender which, although fairly loud for its wattage, isn't going to fill a venue with a capacity of 500

It doens't have aline out- it has a cab out (8ohm) and a headphone out. I was intending to mic it up but I don't have a DI box.

Could the Cab out go into the PA? If I miced up the guitar amp without a DI box how awful would it sound?

And shouldn't this thread be stickied?

Moaner

Seafroggys
08-24-2004, 02:32 PM
What would be good for a school gym? As in to fill it out so it doesn't feel empty?

j0s1ah
08-24-2004, 03:49 PM
blowing out 3 or 4 of the walls.

Aes820
08-24-2004, 05:32 PM
My band is doing our firstgig soon, using the House PA, monitoring etc. but our own ampa and drum kit

My guitar amp is a 25w fender which, although fairly loud for its wattage, isn't going to fill a venue with a capacity of 500

It doens't have aline out- it has a cab out (8ohm) and a headphone out. I was intending to mic it up but I don't have a DI box.

Could the Cab out go into the PA? If I miced up the guitar amp without a DI box how awful would it sound?

And shouldn't this thread be stickied?

Moaner

This thread was stickied at one point.. And I think it should once again be stickied.. but its not up to me.

No, dont run the speaker out into the PA, you can however run the Headphone out into the PA quite easilly. The headphone out will work just as well as a 'line out'.
But you'll have to let the bloke who is looking after the PA to dial in a nice tone. As the signal from your headphone out may sound a little differnt. But as long as you use your ears and your own judgement as to what sounds good then you should be right.

It would also be quite alright to Mic up the amp. And you may even get better soundign results that way.
When micing up you dont need a DI, all you'll need to do is run the microphone into one of the spare mic input channels on the PA.

moaner
08-24-2004, 06:14 PM
thanks dude

You're a lifesaver

<3 cheers>

Yasgotcha69
08-25-2004, 04:21 PM
i was wondering if a mic can make a falsetto/whisper scream sound more raw or if there are effects to make it sound less whispery and more screamish. I know thats kinda an arrogant question. ahaha.

herobehindthemsk
08-25-2004, 04:52 PM
so like moaner said... its ok to run a headphone out into the PA? but when i tried it it squealed like a piggy...mayb my guitar was too close to tHE PA or my guitar amp..any help is appriciated ...herobehindthemsk

Aes820
08-25-2004, 06:27 PM
i was wondering if a mic can make a falsetto/whisper scream sound more raw or if there are effects to make it sound less whispery and more screamish. I know thats kinda an arrogant question. ahaha.
You can add just a touch of distortion. Using a guitar distortion pedal. That make a scream sound a lot rougher.
so like moaner said... its ok to run a headphone out into the PA? but when i tried it it squealed like a piggy...mayb my guitar was too close to tHE PA or my guitar amp..any help is appriciated
It may be feedback.. But it more likely would be incorrect gain and level settings.
Watch your input levels on your PA. Turn the gain down on the channel which you are running your guitar into. And of course turn the output volume of your guitar amp down to. If you are running your amp through the PA, then you'll be relying on the volume of the PA to get your sound out to your audience. You'd be using your amp just for your own stage presence.. So turn your amp down.

Yasgotcha69
08-25-2004, 08:25 PM
can i use my guitar amp for a mic? and if so, can i use the distortion on the amp like you said for the more aggressive sound, or is there a particular kind of speaker i need for the mic. sorry im kinda new with this. thanks!

Aes820
08-25-2004, 08:32 PM
To answer part of your question I'll just copy and paste one of my previous posts:

There is nothing wrong with running a microphone into a guitar amp.. in the short term that is. After a while the amp will just die. And it'll sound like it is full of sand. Give it about 6 - 8 months or so.
So. You can do it. But dont do it with your good amp.
Go to a pawn shop and buy an old POS that you dont care about if it gets wrecked. It'll do the job until you can save up for something a little more suitable.


Perhaps if you go back and read through all of this thread you may find that some of your other questions have also already been answered.

With regards to adding distortion for a more agressive sound. Guitar amp distortion can really muddy up vocals. It can make them sound quite bad.. But, if you dial in just small amounts it can add a roughness to your vocals which can give them an edge that does sound alright. What I mean is, use it in small amounts. And dont rely on it all the time.

moaner
08-28-2004, 03:55 PM
aes, if all my bands mics currently have XLR Femal to mono Jack leads on them, is it ok to plug mono jack leads intot he line ins on the PA without a DI box? DO most PAs have mic level jack inputs?

Moaner

FULL_CIRCLE23
08-28-2004, 08:37 PM
what you have to do if you are poor and need a p.a is imporvise. what my band did and is still doing is we found a 30 stereo reciever, got some ****y speakers from my buddy that he was gonna toss and then we bought a 12 track behringer mixer which is like 300 canadian we plug the mics into the mixer and then the mixer into the stereo and then it comes out our welfare speakers. its no piece of art but i have been playing with it for the last 3 hours and i am deaf as hell right now

jcbsc
08-28-2004, 09:23 PM
Will running vocals through a bass amp make it crap out earlier or later than a guitar amp?

Aes820
08-28-2004, 10:15 PM
aes, if all my bands mics currently have XLR Femal to mono Jack leads on them, is it ok to plug mono jack leads intot he line ins on the PA without a DI box? DO most PAs have mic level jack inputs?
Moaner

You proabbly wont be able to run them into the line ins on the PA, because the signal from the microphones wont be strong enough - it'll have to be preamped first (using a DI box).
But that is not to say that it wont work in your case.

It depends what type of inputs are on your PA.
Have a look at this Behringer Mixer:
http://www.behringer.com/UB802/ub802_medium.jpg
See on the left hand side you've got the two mic preamps. They've got both the XLR inputs and the 1/4" inputs, you can use either input. And both will work fine for microphones.
On the right hand side you've got the four line level inputs. These are at a line level, they are not preamped, and so to run a microphone into them you'll need a preamp (or a DI) before them.

So, it depends what your PA has. if they are line level inputs then you'll need something else.. but if they are actual mic input then you'll be fine using the 1/4" connectors.

I think. Chances are, that with your PA, these would be preamped inputs. And you should be fine running a microphone into them.

Aes820
08-28-2004, 10:44 PM
Will running vocals through a bass amp make it crap out earlier or later than a guitar amp?
In the long run it will. But i think a bass amp would proabbly be able to last longer than a guitar amp.

moaner
08-29-2004, 04:13 AM
aaaah, curses, i haveb't seen the PA we'll be using yet, because its the house one at a venue...

I will have to find out.

Thanks aes,

Moaner

<aes for mod!!>

Aes820
08-29-2004, 05:19 PM
I will have to find out.
Chances are, I think you'll be pretty safe. Most inputs on those powered mixer type setups are all preamped.
It's really only on independant mixer boards where you get combinations of the two differnt types.

Anxious
08-29-2004, 06:45 PM
my friend doest belive me that i can plug my bass into a pa and not fack it up. prove him wrong.

Aes820
08-29-2004, 06:57 PM
You'd want to either first run your bass guitar into a DI box, and then run its output into the PA.

Or mic up your bass amp, Or run a recording output of your bass amp into the PA.

redrumsixsix6
08-30-2004, 08:02 AM
i need a PA for two guitars a bass and lead vocals. would of these be good?

Kustom PA KPA804 PA Package
Big-time value on a compact PA package that's just right for clubs, coffee houses, or other smaller venues. Great for practice, too. Includes...

Price: $159.99
List: $429.00
Rating:

or

Audio Choice C100 Portable PA System 100W
Everything you need to play small venues: a 100W powered mixer with 4 dual input channels, master EQ, and reverb; 2 - 2-way 10" speaker cabinets with...

Price: $179.99
List: $399.90
Rating:

Aes820
08-30-2004, 05:30 PM
You got those descriptions off musiciansfriend right? They soudn kinda familiar.

I think either one of those packages would be okay. As they are both kind've similar.
Although I would personally go for the Audio Choice model.

herobehindthemsk
08-30-2004, 06:14 PM
i'd go for the squier 4 (fender) PA system..its a little expensive but WELL worth it..and to think i despise most fender products

herobehindthemsk
09-02-2004, 05:06 PM
hey aes.. would it hurt any thing to plug a guitar into a PA system using a distortion petal?

Aes820
09-02-2004, 05:12 PM
It shouldnt hurt anything at all.
But i dont think it'll sound all that good.

One night, while at band practise, my poweramp **** itself so I had to plug my preamp straight into the PA so the rest of my band could hear me.

It doesnt sound all that good. The clean sounds are good. but the distortion sounds very weak. Very unimpressive. But you are welcome to give it a try.
Just watch your levels of course.

moaner
09-04-2004, 03:02 PM
there is a thread on the above subject.

acrypticburial
09-04-2004, 07:26 PM
redrum666: go with the Audio Choice, i have it and you can hear over drums and guitars and everything.

acrypticburial
09-04-2004, 07:57 PM
I got a question. If you get a 2X400 watt powered mixer, would you have to get speakers that are 400 watts or could you get speakers that are over 400?

Aes820
09-04-2004, 08:13 PM
If the powered mixer is 2x400 watts at 4 ohms.
You will need to get 4 ohm speakers that are rated at 400 watts or more.

acrypticburial
09-04-2004, 08:14 PM
alright so its ok if they are more than 400 watts, thanks.

Gremlin
09-05-2004, 10:08 PM
Right now my band doesn't have a singer and we don't play shows yet (parties sometimes, have people over, that kind of stuff) but we're starting to plan ahead for when we DO need to be ready for shows.

My bassist is currently running a 300 watt head with a 400 watt amp (Behringer/Peavey respectively)
My guitarist is currently running a 200 watt Randall combo amp.

I'm the drummer and by that time I'll have my new drumset (6 piece).

Would this work for me?
> Get a small 8 to 10 input mixer
> drum mics on: snare, 4 toms, 1 in bass drum
> condensor (2 or more) above cymbals

run all of those into the little mixer
run an output from the mixer into the full mixer/soundboard


would that work so that I don't take up 8 or 9 or so spots on one mixer making us get a gigantic one?

Aes820
09-05-2004, 10:24 PM
Yes. That would work.
you could run the outputs of the first little mixer into the inputs of another one. To save the use of too many channels.
But with the extra mixers and extra combinations of possible settings, you do introduce the problem of too many places where things can go wrong. You should be right tho. As long as take your time whilst setting up. And always watch your settings. An incorrect gain structure can be noisy. And excessing clipping can sound horrible and can also burn out speakers in extreme cases.
So keep an eye out.

But something else that I might add. You dont always need to mic up the drums.
Often you can get away playing gigs without micing up the drums. But it depends on the venue; how crowded it is, how loud you are playing, and the acoustics of the room.

With Condensor mics you will need a mixer that has a phantom power feature. Keep that in mind.

Gremlin
09-05-2004, 11:15 PM
ok cool, thanks.

I'm still looking a lot into specifically what to get and everything.

Could you recomend a small 10 or so channel mixer with phantom power? Doesn't have to be the cheapest but nothing too expensive.

Also could you recomend a PA pack for my band to use in general?
For most live situations around here I could probably get away without micing the drums (would NEED the bass miced though, and most of the clubs here provide mics, cause I've been to shows there and they'll use the same bass drum mic for each band)

The guitar/bass have pretty powerful amps but that something more would be nice, and the vocals would need something.

Either 4 or 6 or 8 channel, something around a few hundred bucks.

Aes820
09-05-2004, 11:58 PM
From a sound point of view.
I only think you'll need the one overhead mic for the cymbols. If at all (as cymbols do quite easilly bleed into the snare and tom mics as they are - not to mention that cymbols can quite easilly be heard even when they are not miced).

Check out this:
http://www.behringer.com/UB1222FX-PRO/index.cfm?lang=ENG

6 mic inputs. Plus the line inputs, the FX, and everything else.

Use it in conjuntion with this:
http://www.behringer.com/UB1202/index.cfm?lang=ENG
For the vocals + the instruments if needs be.

And run them both into a poweramp + speaker setup.

Check out ebay for cheap poweramps. And speaker cabinets.
Something 2x300 or 2x400 watts, should be plenty.

Gremlin
09-06-2004, 01:57 AM
ah, that (with a poweramp and speakers) would be perfect.
After I get this new drumset (which'll take a few weeks, but not too long) I'll talk to the rest of the band and look at these, discuss the full situation of what we'd need and start going in on it.
The 3 of us going on that would be really cheap.

Thanks. :D
Now, off to ebay for poweramp/speaker cabs. lol

Aes820
09-06-2004, 05:24 PM
No worries. Happy shopping.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
09-07-2004, 09:10 PM
ok um what about guitar amps that have a mike in? do those get wrecked?

Aes820
09-07-2004, 09:18 PM
ok um what about guitar amps that have a mike in? do those get wrecked?
I think the input headroom on those amps with a dedicated mic input are better suited to microphones. So, No. they should be right.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
09-07-2004, 09:32 PM
ok i guess i'll take that route... o and does tube or solidstate change all that much for mikes?

moaner
09-08-2004, 09:01 AM
no, don't think so

Aes, surely, a mic input is for a mic? it couldn't possibly be a problem

BlinkRockr41
09-09-2004, 08:01 PM
Hey I've got some more questions. We're looking at buying a mixer and power amp seperate now to possibly save money. The reason for this is because we only need 2 mic inputs so we could buy a really small mixer for cheap. OK first of all you have to match the ohms of the power amp to the ohms of the speaker, right? So if you need 400W (or 200 for each speaker) you want a power amp with 200W/ch @ 8 ohms, and two 8 ohm speakers, right? But if its 200W @ 4 ohms, can you run that into 2 8 ohm speakers? I guess im asking how the ohmage is supposed to match up.

Aes820
09-09-2004, 08:48 PM
The ohms should match up.
If you've got a 2x200 @ 4 ohms.
You should use it with 200 watt, 4 ohms speakers.

You can run it through 8 ohms speakers.
But with the higher impedence of the speakers, the wattage output of the head will be somewhat reduced.
So with a 2x200 watt @ 4 ohms amps through 8 ohms speakers. You may be only getting 2x120 or so watts out of the amp.

There are other options open to you. But I think the simplest and the least expensive thing to do would be to buy a poweramp and a pair of speakers that match.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
09-10-2004, 06:13 PM
This thread should be stickied i think

Aes820
09-11-2004, 12:26 AM
This thread should be stickied i think
Seconded..
It was at one stage.
It's not up to me tho.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
09-12-2004, 06:48 PM
ok guys... what is the cheapest PA you guys have ever seen? I think i saw one for 500$ once (used) with 4 inputs and two monitors.. something like that

Gremlin
09-13-2004, 03:00 AM
$500 used, 4 inputs?

dude, check it.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630130/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/632200/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/608003/

Those are probably the cheapest you'll find.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
09-13-2004, 05:22 PM
o haha i meant 500$ canadian but yea that would be what 325? And i meant like seen in a pawnshop or a store. so i guess 270$ american would be what i should have said

Aes820
09-13-2004, 05:44 PM
Those are probably the cheapest you'll find.
Yep.. Pretty much.

herobehindthemsk
09-13-2004, 06:43 PM
KissMeIamSh*tFaced, good band man..good band

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
09-13-2004, 08:53 PM
ok well there goes my feeble attempt to start a conversation

PS: Very good man

i'm_soooo_emo
09-16-2004, 08:52 AM
At the moment i have got a Mcgregor powered mixer (300 watt) that to me looks about 15 years old at the least. And i also have some peavey eurosys III speakers. I have had this for about a year but i am well unhappy with it. It sounds ****E! Do you rekon it'll be the speakers or the mixer that needs replacing coz i can afford to replace both? Whatever i decide to get i'll have a budget of about 400.

HELP!

Aes820
09-16-2004, 05:23 PM
Narrow down where the problem is. Because it is either a problem with the speakers or with the PA. Either the speaker cones are damaged, or the PA is rooted.

Try it out the speakers through a differnt PA, and try out the PA with differnt speakers.

But guess is that the PA will be stuffed, seeing as it is so old.
Find out the wattage of the speakers, and get yourself a new powerd mixer to suit.

herobehindthemsk
09-16-2004, 07:20 PM
hey aes...my pa just isn't cutting it with only 2 cab's and 1 floor monitor...what do you think would be the CHEAPEST way of making it louder than all the instruments>?....way louder

Aes820
09-16-2004, 07:56 PM
Pick the speakers up higher, if they are not already. Get some stands for them.
Speakers at ear height sound louder than speakers pointing at your ankles.

Add on more speakers. Doubling your speaker area will give you a similar increase in loudness as you would get with twice the output power. But, of course, watch your ohm loading.

Is the floor monitor ran off the same powered mixer as the FOHs? How is it setup?
You could perhaps use an independant powered speaker for the floor monitor. And dedicate the power to the FOHs. Perhaps you could even bridge it?

You could sell it and buy a larger PA. And of course there are many other options. But it depends on what you've got. What have you got at the moment?

moaner
09-17-2004, 09:37 AM
Aes, is there any real disadvantage to using a passive mixer into our PA? Our PA has 2 mic and 2 aux (presumably line, that's the way we've used them) inputs. Could we have a Passive mixer for all the amp mics going into a passive mixer into one mic input, and the vocal mic into the other? and put the line outs of the keyboards into the aux inputs? This would be extremely convinient as when we upgraded our PA we could get a 4 channel one- there seems to be a huge gap between the prices of 4 channel PAs and 6-8.

Aes820
09-17-2004, 10:06 AM
Yeah. Run the main outputs of the passive mixer into the aux inputs of your powered mixer.

Run all you mics and line level signals into the passive mixer (or into the two spare mic inputs on the powered mixer if needs be). That should be fine.

But, as always. Keep an eye on how you've got your levels set. Watch for clipping, excess noise, etc.

moaner
09-17-2004, 10:24 AM
thanks

man, you're quick...

herobehindthemsk
09-17-2004, 01:13 PM
Pick the speakers up higher, if they are not already. Get some stands for them.
Speakers at ear height sound louder than speakers pointing at your ankles.

Add on more speakers. Doubling your speaker area will give you a similar increase in loudness as you would get with twice the output power. But, of course, watch your ohm loading.

Is the floor monitor ran off the same powered mixer as the FOHs? How is it setup?
You could perhaps use an independant powered speaker for the floor monitor. And dedicate the power to the FOHs. Perhaps you could even bridge it?

You could sell it and buy a larger PA. And of course there are many other options. But it depends on what you've got. What have you got at the moment?


right now ...its a squier 4 pa with 80 watt mixer with 2 i think 12 inch cabs with a 10 inch floor monitor

Aes820
09-17-2004, 08:47 PM
80 watts, hmm.. Yeah that probably wont last you too long.

Just see if you can stick it through (using those above mentioned methods) with it until you can afford to upgrade.

For an upgrade, a 2x200 watt powered mixer and a couple of speakers would probably be your best bet.
And you could always keep the 2x80 setup to use as monitors.

herobehindthemsk
09-17-2004, 09:10 PM
would mic pre-amps help any..don't they give the kind of boost a guitar efx petal gives a guitar>? or no?

Aes820
09-17-2004, 09:33 PM
They may boost your loudness a little bit. If you set them properly.
But they can introduce unwanted distortion into your sound if you are not careful with how they are set up.

You can definately give it a try if you wish. Although it is not a long term solution.

moaner
09-18-2004, 05:05 PM
Sorry to bother you aes...

were i to use 4ohm outputs of my pa into 8ohm spekaers, would this blow them/ the amp? The amp is only 60w, whereas the speakers are 75w each. with them safe in terms of power rating, is it an issue?

Aes820
09-18-2004, 08:53 PM
Running 4 ohm outputs through 8 ohm speakers mean that the wattage output of the amp will be slightly reduced.
So if the amp is 60 watts at 4 ohms, then it may only be 40 or so watts while through 8 ohms.
So, power wise, it is not an issue at all.

To get the most out of your PA it is usually best to match your ohm loadings at all times. But, just be sure of the way that your PA works. Running two 8 ohm speakers in parrallel off the one output will have a total load of 4 ohms, for example.
And often, many of those little 4 input mixers are infact just mono PAs, and not true stereo.

moaner
09-19-2004, 03:49 AM
I severely doubt its true stereo, but it has 2 4ohm outputs and the speakers i've found are 8 ohm

Its just we were thinking of using it for small venues and then in the future, we'll upgrade everything and use that as our monitoring setup. But 60w wasn't a lot in the first place, will 40w be any good at all, for even the smallest venues?

here they are
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23794&item=3749255399&rd=1

would this plan work? I'm just trying to picture if it was just me with a 40w guitar amp what kinda venue i'd be able to play comfortably. with speaker stands, this might be alright.

Aes820
09-19-2004, 04:09 AM
Yeah. That's what I was thinking.
And in that case you will be getting the full 60 watts out of the PA. But still, that isn't a whole lot.
They should be alright for practising, and perhaps 'backyard party' sized gigs. But probably not much more
Getting them up onto stands may help a bit. But you really would be better off, in the long run, with a higher powered PA.

With regards to upgrading the whole lot and keeping them for monitors. That is a good idea. And that is what i have done. My older PA is one of those little 4 input 100 watt powered mixers. And since I have now upgraded into these 2x300 watt biamped speakers. I keep the 100 watter and it's speakers for monitoring.

i'm_soooo_emo
09-19-2004, 04:24 AM
IN my rehersal room at the moment i have a 300watt pa and speakers (dunno the watt of them but its irelevant anyway. But we are soon gonna start sharing with another band and they have a better pa than mine. But my plan is to use MY pa (the crap one) as a monitoring thing and this is how i plan on doing it. Will this work.......?

I will set the good pa up as normal but then from an output on this pa i will then run a jack to jack lead to an input on the crappy pa and use the crappy speakers as monitors. This way i will be able to turn the volume of the monitors up and down.

Any good?

moaner
09-19-2004, 04:42 AM
what a convinient time to ask...

look up.

Aes820
09-19-2004, 06:28 PM
Yeah. That'll work fine. If the good PA has got a line out, or an Aux output. You can run that into the input on the older PA.

DO NOT run a cable from the speaker outputs of the good PA into the older one. This wont be any good for either PA.

BlinkRockr41
09-20-2004, 05:10 PM
Hi, I asked some questions before about how the ohmage was supposed to match up between the power amp and the speakers. I have a few more questions. Ok I understand the the ohmage of the power amp has to be equal to the ohmage of the speaker. And I see alot of power amps that run on 8, 4, and even 2 ohms. So that would mean if I ran the power amp on 2 ohms, I just need some 2 ohm speakers. The problem is, looking throught Musician'sFriend they dont tell you the ohmage of alot of the speakers in there, and the ones they do, all say 8 ohms. So are all speakers 8 ohms? They couldn't all be 8 right, otherwise how could power amps run on 2 ohms? And if not, how do I figure out the ohmage if it doesnt tell me? One other thing, when a power amp is bridged, you have a mono signal, right? So can you only drive one speaker when a power amp is bridged? If so, do you get plenty of sound w/ one speaker? I assume you would because of the increased wattage by bridging. Thanks for the help

Aes820
09-20-2004, 06:00 PM
1st question. Ohms.

Some poweramps have the abilty to be run at 2 ohms. Yet many (but not all) speakers are only 8 ohms. But. You can wire multiple speakers together. So you can have two 8 ohm speaker cabinets wired next to each other (in parrallel) where the total load of these two speakers would be 4 ohms.

Two 8 ohm speakers (or groups of speakers) in parrallel = 4 ohms.
Two 4 ohm speakers (or groups of speakers) in parrallel = 2 ohms.

So, given this, you can connect up additional speaker cabinets onto the one PA to suit different ohm loadings. Knowing that more speaker area is a good way of increasing loudness. As doubling your speaker area will give you a similar increase in decibels as you would get with an amp with twice the wattage.

Read this article for information about speaker impedence:
http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/concepts/impedance.cfm

2nd question. bridging.
When you bridge a poweramp. It is like taking both the left and right channels and combining them into the one mono channel. So a 2x200 watt amp will become a 1x400 watt amp when it is bridged.

Another thing you have to think about, when you bridge the poweramp, you have to double the speaker ohms.
So if your amps is 2x 200 watts @ 4 ohms. Then when bridged it'll be 1x 400 watts while at 8 ohms.

Bridging a poweramp is commonly done when using the poweramp do drive a subwoofer (in a biamped / triamped setup). Because of the lower frequencies, subwoofers require the extra wattage to stay clear and undistorted. And also, because bass frequencies are omnidirectional (you dont need a left and right channel). It doesnt matter that you dont have a left and right channel.

So, if you are thinking of adding on a subwoofer to your setup. Get back to me. But for now and for your specific situation, I dont think there will be any advantage in bridging your PA. Just leave it how it is.

moaner
09-21-2004, 10:54 AM
hey aes, rather than spending 60 on some small speakers when they'rre only a temporary solution that'll be used ofr monitoring

My dad has some hifi speakers claiming to be 80w each (yeah right) but still likely to be able to handle 60w between them. They're 8 ohm, the lil' pa we have, as you know, has 2 4ohm speaker outputs. buuut...

they are connectied with wire terminals, not jacks. So, how could i wire them together to get my 4 ohms? wiring something like that into parallel is easier said than done. I have a soldering iron and stuff, and could get some of those connector things if that would help.

Also, they are either 6" or 8" speakers with a 1" spekaer- is this likely to cause any problems? Will the spekaer be so small it will distort, or have trouble reaaching the bass notes? It says it has a minimum frequency response of like 70-80hz i think. I know A is 440, but don't know how the system works form there.

thanks,

moaner

Aes820
09-21-2004, 05:42 PM
Minimum frequency response refferes to the lowest bass note that those speakers are able to handle.
The human ear cannot hear anything under 20Hz. Everything under that, you stop hearing and start 'feeling'.
Often PA speakers only handle down to 80Hz or so. Leaving everything else to be handled by seperate amplifiers and low range drivers called sub-woofers. If at all.

Some sound techs just flat out ignore all frequencies below 40Hz, and dont let them be amplified. Claiming that everything under this is just a waste of headroom, and is more of a cause of unplesant 'rumble' than it is actual sound.
Meaning, why would they waste amplifier power tyring to reproduce frequencies that dont really need to be there in the first place?

Those stereo speakers of your old mans will have an internal passive crossover.
Which is a small piece of circuitry which seperates your audio signal into differnt ranges of frequencies. The low frequencies will be sent to the woofer. the Mids to the mid range, and the highs to the tweeter.
This passive crossover will prevent the low frequencies from trying to pass through the tweeter, which will in turn prevent damage due to cone distortion.
(bare in mind there is a differnce between a passive crossover and an active crossover)

I would only suggests you use your old man's speakers if you are confident that they wont be damaged. Given their wattage rating, it seems obvious that they will be fine. But I still dont want to encourage you to go ahead and use them, just incase you ruin them. It shouldn't ruin them. But yeah. I hope you know what I mean. As long as it is okay with your dad. Then yeah.

You can wire them up just by cuting the ends off a speaker cable and stripping the wires so that they can fit into the wire terminals.
Taking note of polarity. Positive to red, Negative to black.

You should know the differnece between parrallel and series connections by now.
If not read these pages:

http://www.termpro.com/articles/spkrz.html

http://www.avatarspeakers.com/wiring%20diagrams.htm

moaner
09-22-2004, 12:39 AM
yeah, i got that, my dad said you can just put 2 wires in 1 termiinal to give parallel

the speakers are already dead old, and he's planning on replacing them, so thats why i was asking

thanks

moaner
09-24-2004, 09:31 AM
Aes, if my band bought a decent powered mixer but it was only 200w, could we, in the future, add a power amp between the powerd mixer and the speakers, without worry? I guess the real question is, can you plug a very high power signal into the input of a power amp?

Aes820
09-24-2004, 10:17 PM
No. You cannot plug the output of a power amp into the input of another amp.
(unless it is attenuated - with a dummy load or something)

What you could do. When you upgrade. Is use the main speakers in that PA for monitors. and run the auxillery output of that PA into another poweramp to use as FOH speakers

moaner
09-25-2004, 11:41 AM
ok...

do powered mixers have stereo line level outputs that bypass the amplification section?

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
09-25-2004, 12:56 PM
i was considering something today... is it possible t use guitar amps as monitors... or jsut guitar cabs... or something

Aes820
09-25-2004, 05:00 PM
do powered mixers have stereo line level outputs that bypass the amplification section?The vast majority of them do. They are usually called Auxillery outputs. Not all of them are stereo, but they'll have them none the less.

i was considering something today... is it possible t use guitar amps as monitors... or jsut guitar cabs... or somethingUm. I guess you could. I dont really see why tho. I think you would get better results using a proper monitoring system.

moaner
09-25-2004, 05:51 PM
if I end the auxillary outputs to the poweramp, I could then use the normal speaker outputs as monitor outputs...


aes, good sir, you are a genius.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
09-25-2004, 10:14 PM
. I guess you could. I dont really see why tho. I think you would get better results using a proper monitoring system.

We lack monitors at the moment

iron_lion
10-02-2004, 02:37 AM
Allright, right here are some n00b questions, but Aes820 I'm sure you can answer them very well. Here's the situation:

My band just spent some money on an analog mixer. It's an Alesis MultiMix 8FX Compact 6-Channel Mixer The Specs Are: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630157/

100 28-bit digital effects
6 channels
4 mic/line inputs
4 mic preamps with switchable 75Hz high-pass filters
2 stereo/line inputs
3-band EQ per channel

We bought two Kustom KSC15 2-Way 15" PA Speaker Cabinets with 55Hz-20kHz frequency response. 100Wrms/200W peak handling. 8 ohms. 93dB SPL.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/600813/

What my band intends on doing (or intended, you'll find out soon enough) is to run two mics for vocals through it. The band consists of a 30 watt bass amp, a 65 watt guitar amp and drums.

So what we did, was we plugged in the mixer to the speakers, plugged a mic into the mixer and sung, or screamed, rather, our hearts out. And... with everything at its max levels, it... can't even compete with my sisters magic mic kareoke on the T.V. (it was really soft)

So here's the n00b questions
1) What is an analog mixer? And what's the difference between an analog, digital and powered mixer?
2) Why are the speakers so soft?
3) Are we missing an item to make the speakers functional?
4) What do we need to make the speakers functional?
5) What is a monitor?
6) What is a poweramp?
7) What does p.a. stand for?

Thank you, in advance.

Brian

moaner
10-02-2004, 06:43 AM
1. i couldn't really give you sufficient detail, but analogue mixers work by good ol' means of pots and sliders, which are veriable resistors, whereas although digital may use this as an interface, but the entire thing is then sent to a computer chip inside the mixer to decide the sound. Powered mixers are mixers with inbuilt power amps.

You guys, to answer 2,3,4,6 have nothing powereiring your PA. You need a power amp. This is a peice of equiptment that makes the volume of what comes out of the mixer. Think of it this way- if the mixer "mixes" together all the different signals, and sends them out, this is still only a very low signal- not loud enough to power some speakers. A power amp takes this sound and makes it louder, without affecting the sound. You really need a power amp.

Monitors are onstage peices of equiptment that let the band hear what is coming out of the main PA speakers, so that the band can hear eachother.

PA stands for Public address, because thats what some PAs are used for- for example, at public speeches. Its just that bands and musicians sue them too.

Hope this helps until aes can give you the full downlow,

Moaner

Aes820
10-02-2004, 09:07 PM
Moaner has given good info.

1. Anologue mixers mix your signal using tradional anologue based circuitry. Digital mixers convert your signal into digital information (like a computer), mixes it, and then reverts this mixed digital info back into an audio signal.
Powered mixers are like a mixer and a poweramp combined into the one unit.

2 and 3 and 6. You'll need a poweramp. A poweramp is what 'adds the watts' and gets it up to a volume loud enough to power the speakers. Powered mixers have got built in poweramps, and powered speakers have got built in poweramps. Seeing as you've got just a regular mixer and regular speakers. You'll need a poweramp to go in between the two.

4. Your speakers are 100w at 8 ohms each. For them I would reccomend a 2x100 watt at 8 ohm poweramp. Or a 2x200watt at 4 ohm poweramp. Ebay is a good place to look for cheap poweramps.

5. Moaner is correct. A monitor is for the benefit of the band so they can hear them selves on stage. Monitors arn't always necessary and are usually only seen on Larger and more professional PA setups. Quite often, you can get away with playign gigs without the need of monitors.

7. Moaner is correct.

TheBouncingSoul
10-02-2004, 10:34 PM
Okay, were just starting out, and i don't really know jack about PA's mics or whatever. So can you kind of explain PA's and why you have to hook amps up to them, and crap in a nutshell? thanks..

also, we need mics, but only 2. I was thinking a Shure becuase i hear they the best. I'm hoping we don't have to spend more than 300-400 on a pa, and speakers and stuff. can you guys give me some hints, or something? thanks.

Aes820
10-03-2004, 02:39 AM
PAs are used to get your sound out to your audience.
Depending on the size of the venue and how many people are there, your own amps and the sound of the drums may not be enough to fully get out to your audience. This is when you'll need a PA. To run your instruments through and get it loud enough to be heard.
Now, like I said, you dont always need a PA for the instruments. It depends on size the venue. Even some larger venues have their own in-house PAs.

But usually you would at least want to run your vocals through a PA.
And for that, you can get yourself a little 4 input powered mixer for perhaps a couple of hundred bucks. That'll do the job for some small to medium sized gigs.

Read back through this thread. Or look on Musicians friend under 'packaged PA setups' for some options on what other people use.

iron_lion
10-03-2004, 04:51 AM
Thanks for the help. Quick question though: what would be a cheap affordable power amp. Because I'm searching ebay and am finding lots of really cheap power amps, is it too good to be true?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64451&item=3751030869&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=68247&item=3751135379&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=294&item=5723843772&rd=1

P.S. my bassist thinks your god aes, sorry moaner, he's not familiar with you, yet :p

P.S.S. there's a lot of cheap DJ power amps, does that make a difference? Can we use a dj amp instead?

Aes820
10-03-2004, 06:20 AM
You'll basically be looking at a poweramp suitable for your speakers.

Either a 2x100 watt @ 8 ohms.. or a 2x200 watt @ 4 ohms.

None of those three you linked to would be really suitable. The first would be okay but probably underpowered for your needs. The second is too much power. And the third isn't exactally a poweramp.

A DJ poweramp should work. As long as it's rated power output matches those figures I mentioned above.

Something like this would be good:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64452&item=3751153903&rd=1
As would this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23787&item=3752426995&rd=1

TheBouncingSoul
10-03-2004, 03:36 PM
i saw a kustom pa package for like $160. It has a 4 input mixer with 2 speakers. 80W i think it said the mixer was. Good? for playing in garages, and small venues. (forl ike no more than 50 people?)

and for mics...i saw a nady package with a mic, cable, and stand for like $20. any good? what are good mics to look at without spending a butt-load of cash on? thanks again, aes. Your good.

Aes820
10-03-2004, 08:21 PM
That kustom PA package would be okay for practising and playing gigs in garages and perhaps even house parties.
It may be struggeling to keep up at anything larger, tho.

Behringer is a good brand to look at for decent mics at a decent price.. I think they've got a package of 3 or 4 mics for 80 bucks or so. from memory.
Check out www.behringer.com

TheBouncingSoul
10-04-2004, 02:34 PM
could we add more speakers to it, or would the PA cab need to be more powerful? we only need 2 mics. and were going to run 2 guitars through it as well, as they have smaller amps.

The Spliggity Splot
10-04-2004, 02:51 PM
whats the least I should spend to get good sound outside?

moaner
10-04-2004, 03:29 PM
depends on how big the gig will be and how many channels you need, as well as your idea of "good"...

Aes820
10-04-2004, 06:11 PM
could we add more speakers to it, or would the PA cab need to be more powerful? we only need 2 mics. and were going to run 2 guitars through it as well, as they have smaller amps.
You 'technically' can add on more speakers if you want. But I wouldnt really advise it. You'll have to worry about ohm loadings. And really, 80 watts isn't all that much headroom in the first place.
It may be better in the long run to invest in a PA with more wattage.
whats the least I should spend to get good sound outside? Outdoors is tricky. Because you usually have to drasitically increase your expectations on wattage. Usually 10 fold, for a benchmark.
If 300 watts would be good for a small indoors gig. Then you'll be looking at 3000 for an outdoors gig.
And for improved efficiency, you'll then have to worry about bi/triamping. Then that involves differnt speaker cabinets, poweramps, crossovers.
It can really add up.

You can do 'backyard' sized gigs with an indoors PA, by all means.
And something like a 600 watter might be good for anything up to 500 people.
But if you are playing a larger gig. With perhaps an audience of 500 people or more. Then you'll want a setup that is a little more professional. And for that. It can get very expensive.

SoberTill2
10-05-2004, 07:31 PM
PAs are used to get your sound out to your audience.
Depending on the size of the venue and how many people are there, your own amps and the sound of the drums may not be enough to fully get out to your audience. This is when you'll need a PA. To run your instruments through and get it loud enough to be heard.
Now, like I said, you dont always need a PA for the instruments. It depends on size the venue. Even some larger venues have their own in-house PAs.

But usually you would at least want to run your vocals through a PA.
And for that, you can get yourself a little 4 input powered mixer for perhaps a couple of hundred bucks. That'll do the job for some small to medium sized gigs.

Read back through this thread. Or look on Musicians friend under 'packaged PA setups' for some options on what other people use.

wow dude thnx :thumb: , just wut i was gonna ask for. and could u tell me wut a power amp is for

Aes820
10-05-2004, 09:14 PM
Have a read back through this thread. I've already covered what a poweramp is in an earlier post.

But basically it is what 'adds the watts' to your sound. It amplifies your signal up loud enough so it can be reproduced at high volumes through your speakers.

Alot of equipment has got built in poweramps.
For example, a powered mixer is like a mixer and a poweramp all built in to the one unit.
This makes it much easier to buy and setup, no need to worry about poweramps because it is all built in.

thelemon32
10-05-2004, 09:52 PM
I've got a question. Our band is looking to buy a pa system, but we dont have much money (i'm the only one with a job) Would this Audio Choice C100 Portable PA System 100W package that you talk about for 179 get over our drummer. He plays pretty loud. I'm just not aware of how much 100w means on a pa.

Does the 100 watts mean it can only handle 100w or thats how loud it puts out or what? We arent using it for gigs or anything big at all yet. just practicing and fun. Would we need anything else for starting out than what it comes with?
also, if we mic'd a 120w amp, would a 100w pa system handle that. I just dont really understand that yet.
thanks
Hit By A Miss

Aes820
10-05-2004, 09:58 PM
The 100 watt PA means that the amps rated output is 100 watts. This means little to the overall loudness, however it is used as a benchmark.

100 watts will probably be okay for practising. But it depends on how loud the rest of your band is, including your drummer.
With guitar and bass amps, you can always turn them down to suit. But you cant turn down drums. And if your drummer is naturally a heavy hitter. Then you may need something that is more cabable to keep up.
But, like i said, it depends.

For one band, a 100 watter might be fine for practising and even some house party gigs. But for another band, it may not be enough at all.

But for a band that is just starting out. And not going to get into gigging for a while. I think that 100 watter should be fine.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-06-2004, 06:10 PM
is it possible to plug a guitar amp head directly into the PA... without any cab

Aes820
10-06-2004, 06:56 PM
No. Do not run anything other than a speaker load off the speaker output of an amp. Running the outputs of the amp into the input of a PA can quite easilly ruin both amps.
I thought that would be obvious.

You can use a dummy load (such as a power attenuator set to full load) And then run the head into the PA as if you are slaving it.
Although it may just be cheaper to buy a suitable speaker cabinet.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-06-2004, 07:02 PM
it might be obvious... but i am not too bright...

moaner
10-07-2004, 08:41 AM
however, if the amp has a line out, its a slightly different issue.

Los3rKid
10-07-2004, 06:08 PM
hey, would this PA system be sutiable for practising and gigging with,
In the band there is:
2 guitarists
1 bassist
1 drummer
1 lead vocals + 2 backing vocals

all amps (2 guitar amps nd 1 bass amp) are 100watt...

also, would we need do buy anything extra to add this system

Note: the system is in australians dollars as i live in australia...

Los3rKid
10-07-2004, 06:10 PM
sorry i forgot to add the link...

here it is http://www.venuemusic.com.au/Products.asp?ProdID=3300

Aes820
10-07-2004, 06:19 PM
however, if the amp has a line out, its a slightly different issue.
You'll still need a speaker load on the first amp.

Aes820
10-07-2004, 06:25 PM
Los3r Kid:

I'm from Australia too. And this youth centre where my bands sometimes play have got an inhouse PA very similar to that one.

It is a very suitable setup. And should be fine for some gigs of perhaps up to a couple of hundred people. More than enough to play in pubs and Youth Centers.

With 100 watt guitar and bass amps. You probably wont need to run them through it. They should be loud enough on their own. If not. Just add on more speakers.

I also understand that that PA can be split for Monitoring. So that may also be an advantage if you ever intend to buy a couple of monitor wedges for it in the future.

Los3rKid
10-07-2004, 06:34 PM
cool thnx dude

moaner
10-08-2004, 05:07 AM
You'll still need a speaker load on the first amp.

really?

<learns something important>

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-08-2004, 03:18 PM
however, if the amp has a line out, its a slightly different issue.

o yea? it would work if i did it threw the line out?

Aes820
10-08-2004, 11:39 PM
If the amp has a line out, you can run that into the PA.
But you still must have a speaker attached to the amp head.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-09-2004, 03:33 PM
o **** ok thanks

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-11-2004, 12:45 PM
would this: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23785&item=3754354484&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

work with this: http://www.zzounds.com/item--NDYPFW12

?

moaner
10-11-2004, 01:00 PM
Thats a monitor, not a PA speaker, in the 2nd link.

It would probably work, and be ok for practising.

Beofre you could gig with it you would really need to get yourself a pair of PA speakers.

Trying to cut corners rarely works in the world of music gear.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-11-2004, 02:09 PM
i know, i meant for practising, and for gigs we would use it to point towards us so that we could hear ourselves

BlinkRockr41
10-11-2004, 03:30 PM
Hey does anyone have any suggestions for a book about Live Sound, stuff like how to get a good sound and what kind of gear is appropriate for certain sized venues. And maybe something that explains triamping and other complicated stuff like that. Thanks

Aes820
10-11-2004, 05:39 PM
i know, i meant for practising, and for gigs we would use it to point towards us so that we could hear ourselves
Yes. That would be good for jammign and practising. One of those speakers should be fine. But two of them would be better.

Hey does anyone have any suggestions for a book about Live Sound, stuff like how to get a good sound and what kind of gear is appropriate for certain sized venues. And maybe something that explains triamping and other complicated stuff like that. Thanks
Read some of the articles at this site:
http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/
Particularly under the subheadings; Concepts/Definitions, Power amplifiers, Processors, Safety and Sound systems

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-12-2004, 01:26 PM
ok two questions

1. A PA i am considering buying (mixer and power amp) only has one output for monitor, and one for main. Does this mean it will only take one monitor speaker and one main speaker?

2. A 300 watts PA with two outputs... Does this mean that it's 150 watts per output and that we can put two 150 watt speakers, one out of each output and they won't blow up?

moaner
10-12-2004, 03:48 PM
1. This is incredibly unlikely, Could you link us this alleged power amp and mixer with only one speaker output? ohmage is the real issue here.

2. 300w is almost certaintly 2x150w, even if you don't get true stereo, you should still get 2 speakers run quite normally out of it.

diesel
10-12-2004, 03:56 PM
You can usually run more than one speaker off of one amp, but it's a very tricky process of matching impedience. If you want to use a 4ohm speaker on an 8ohm amp, it will run louder, but it may over-work the amp in the process. The reverse will may be no healthier for your amp, but it will mean less power (with an 8ohm into a 4ohm). Now the tricky part is matching the speakers to your amp. As a quick sheet, two 4ohm speakers in parallel are 2ohms (WARNING: 2 OHMS WILL DAMAGE MOST AMPS) and two 8ohm speakers is 4ohms in parallel. I'd explain the math, but I'm not a math teacher, although I'm sure someone else can explain the formula.

As for the 300W into two outputs, read around the jacks, if you see the word "parallel" in the area, chance are you have one amp, just two places to plug in, so just think of it as the speakers being in parallel.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-12-2004, 04:45 PM
http://i1.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/9a/0b/c1_1.JPG

theres a pic


And thanks for your help ey... i really apreciate it


EDIT: Wait i just saw a pic of the back for the first time, and i think i figured evrtyhing out


http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/97/59/02_1.JPG

Aes820
10-12-2004, 05:39 PM
I think those outputs on the front of the amp are for line level connections.
So you can run the monitor output into a pair of headphone and the Main output into additonal amps, or recording equipment, or whatever.

Those two connections on the back of the amp are what you'll connect your speakers up to.

Diesel is spot on correct with his info about ohm loadings. As seeing as that amp of yours cant be used at less than 4 ohm. Running two 8 ohm speakers off both of those outputs will be your best bet. (two 8 ohm speakers in parrallel = 4 ohms total).

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-12-2004, 07:04 PM
um ok so i will only be able to connect two speakers?

Aes820
10-12-2004, 07:10 PM
Two 8 ohm speakers in parrallel. Yes.
You can connect more if you wish. But you'll have to connect them in a manner so as they do not equal a load of less than 4 ohms

For example. You can connect two 4 ohm speakers together in series for a total load of 8 ohms. If you do this to another pair of 4 ohms speaker and connect both sets together in parallel then it'll have a total load of 4 ohms (2x 8 ohms in parrallel = 4 ohms).

This is called parallel series wiring. And you are basically wiring two series circuits together in parallel.

There are many more combinations open to you. And if you arm youself with this basic theory you can use it to you advantage.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
10-12-2004, 07:41 PM
ok thanks alot man

Screamin_Demon_Auz
10-17-2004, 05:11 PM
Okay this may have already been mentioned but I dont have enough time to look through all of this.

My band is just starting to look at PA Systems and we have no idea what were looking for. Heres the things we need to run through it;

My wireless mic system
Possibly 1 or 2 wired mics for back ups
2 guitars
1 bass
drums
at least 1 in ear monitor set
HOT SPOT POWERED VOCAL MONITOR

what do I need for all of this? Could you send me a link for the cheapest PA? How do you go about getting drum mics into a PA system? Thanks

Aes820
10-17-2004, 05:51 PM
For that setup it's not going to be a case of one PA. I think you'll be better off getting a number of things.

Since you'll be looking at micing up drums, as well as instruments and perhaps DIing the Bass. Plus at least three chanels for vocals. Then you'll probably be better off getting a mixer with enough channels for all this. And that'll be a big one. Perhaps 12-16 channels. A mixer with some built in FX would be advantageous. Then you'll also want a suitable poweramp and a couple of speakers for it.
You can run the in ear monitor and the powered monitor off the mixers Auxillery buses, simple enough.

This may set you back a few dollars. Perhaps upwards of a couple of grand. More if you are also wanting to get all the mics and accessories with it also.

If you can live with not micing up the bass/drums/guitars things can get alot more affordable. In a lot of venues there is just no need to run the instruments through the PA. Depending on the size of the venue your own backline volume may be enough.
And.. In venues that require these instruments to be mic'd up. Then chances are they may have their own inhouse PA with provision to mic up all the instruments.

Although your own PA for volcals always comes in handy. And for that, I would reccomend looking on musiciansfriend for some packaged PA setups.
You can get setups which consists of a powered mixer, a couple of speakers and perhaps even some speaker stands and Mics.
I would suggest looking at brands like Peavey and Yamaha. And at about 2x300 watts.

Once again, you can run the in ear monitor and the powered monitor off the powered mixer's auxillery outputs.

moaner
10-18-2004, 11:07 AM
Aes, you know how my band have one 60w and one 150w PA? Well, would this work?

-plug the vocals and synth into the 2 mic inputs into the 60watter
-plug the speaker output of the 60 watter into some (unpowered) monitors
-plug the 'aux out' of the 60w pa into a channel of the new one
-mic up/line in guitar and bass into the 150w PA
-put the guitar and bass amp at at the back of the stage slanted so the drummer and other band members can hear them
-Have the monitors facing us and the drummer so we can hear the vocals and synth (the 2 things without amps to be heard)

Is this a good idea? Would it work? can you see any problems with it?

Aes820
10-18-2004, 05:08 PM
Yea that is a good idea. Yeah it will work. And no I don't see any problems with it.

Myee
10-21-2004, 03:09 AM
OK, my band has the vague semblance of a PA - we currently have 2 75watt speakers, and a recently acquired 15 channel mixer (unpowered). This is going to mainly be used for rehearsal but we will be carting it around to a party or two as well. Obviously, we're missing a poweramp. What wattage should we be looking for a poweramp to put out, for our situation? The PA will be used for:

- vocals (1 mic at the moment, but perhaps more in the future)
- 2 guitars
- 1 bass

At the moment our guitar/bass amps are quite pathetic; they're pretty much the standard beginner amps (10w, 20w). They completely lack the ability to not be drowned out by the drums. How much would it cost to mic up 3 amps to the PA system, and would it perhaps be better to just upgrade our amps and then use the PA solely for vocals? Another thing, if we did mic them, would we plug those mics straight into the mixer?

And just out of curiousity, what happens if you plug a guitar amp head, with no speakers connected, directly into the mixer?

moaner
10-21-2004, 06:30 AM
Behringer sell a set of 3 mics for 35, plus 20-25 for leads

You can buy reasnoble mics for 15, they're ok as long as you're not doing proffesional recording i guess

A poweramp can cost as little or as much as you want- you can still buy a powered mixer and plug the 2 outputs of your mixer into 2 channnel inputs should you so wish.

You can buy an 80w Kustom powered mixer for not very much at all, but if you want a proepr poweramp i think they start at about 100w a side and go up from there.

NO! don't plug a guitar head into a desk without a cab, you will damage something.

moaner
10-21-2004, 10:16 AM
And also, it would be better if you upgraded your amps and still used them with the PA.

Itwasthatwas
10-21-2004, 03:25 PM
I know absolutely nothing about this kind of stuff.... I'm asking this question for our new vocalist.

Starting with the basic question:

What kind of equipment do you actually need in terms of this PA stuff? (aside from mics, we've got that covered, he's probably going to get an SM58).

and

What's a good system that isn't to expensive?

moaner
10-21-2004, 03:36 PM
How many times can we say, Kustom do a good package (thats probably linked to several time in this thread), 80w 4 channel with speakers, it also comes with a mic i think, but the mic it comes with won't be nearly as good as the shure.

The package will have everything you need, you won't have to worry.

Aes820
10-21-2004, 05:48 PM
Myee: A 2x100 watt poweramp sould be fine for those speakers. But just dont go turning it up all the way.
If you need to turn the levels on your mixer and your poweramp up above about 8/10 in order to be loud enough then it'll probably be better to invest in a more powerful setup.

Itwasthatwas: Look on Musiciansfriend for packaged PA setups. Search for setups that are suitable for your budget.

moaner
11-04-2004, 10:31 AM
aes, what do 'slave outs' do?

Aes820
11-04-2004, 03:54 PM
They are used for connecting up to additional poweramps.
And output is taken, pretty much straight in parrallel from the amps main speaker outputs, it is attenuated (reduced in power) back down to a line level signal, so you can run a slave output into the input of more poweramps.

The slave out is differnt to a line out. Because, as a line out captures a line level signal from the preamp section of an amp. A slave out captures a line level signal from after the poweramp section of the amp.

So, this is useful in low wattage tube amps. Where you can capture this tone and then run it into more poweramps for even more volume.

But, it is very important that when you use a slave output you must still have a suitable speaker load attached to the amp.

moaner
11-04-2004, 03:59 PM
ok, its on our PA

thats strange, you would think a PA wouldn't change the sound of anything, and the slave outs and pre amp out and aux out would all amount to the same thing

odd...

Aes820
11-04-2004, 04:34 PM
Slave outs are usually used to run into additional power amps
Auxillery outs are useful to be used like FX loops, or to run into monitoring setups.
Line outs are useful for running into recording devices.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
11-04-2004, 04:39 PM
OK we just bought a PA... and we dont have cables, all we have is Mic cables, XLR to quarter inch, can we connect the mikes into the quarter inch input on the PA, each channel has one and it's written Hi-Z. I think these inputs are more for other instuments cause the impedance is alot higher apparently, but willl it **** anything up if we connect the mics into them? We will eventually buy XLR to XLR cables... but we dont have enough now

Aes820
11-04-2004, 04:41 PM
It should be fine. They'll sound clearer and 'nicer' through the XLR inputs. But the 1/4" inputs are fine for the time being.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
11-04-2004, 04:51 PM
won't break anything?

http://www.musik-service.de/ProduX/PA/Powermixer/Phonic_Power_Pod_740_EN.htm

I mean the input ontop of the XLR input

Aes820
11-04-2004, 05:09 PM
Nah, it wont hurt anything. Like I said, it'll just sound a little differnt (and perhaps a little quieter) than it would through the XLRs. It'll still work fine.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
11-04-2004, 07:34 PM
OK thanks alot man

swingish123
11-05-2004, 09:16 PM
um well me and my band are playing a gig at our school gym, and I was wondering like how many watts for our speakers would we need to actually be heard.......><><><

Aes820
11-06-2004, 12:24 AM
^ I think a 2x 300 watt PA will do you good. Just make sure you get those speakers up onto stands, and you'll be right.

swingish123
11-06-2004, 12:03 PM
Do you think Peavey Pr 15's and a behringer UB1832FXpro will work?

moaner
11-06-2004, 01:50 PM
yes, very well.

You're lucky you can afford them.

You might not even have to use speaker stands, 15" peavey speakers are usually pretty substantial.

Wait

that behringer is an unpowered mixer and unpowered speakers

to those you will have to add a poweramp, aes says about 2x300

like the peavey PV1500

Aes820
11-06-2004, 07:07 PM
Yes. You'll need a poweramp..

But for simplicitys sake. I would reccomend a powered mixer. They are easier to hook up and operate.

Have a look on Musicians Friend for packaged PA setups that will suit your budget.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
11-07-2004, 06:49 PM
I am having some feedback trouble.. threw input 1 of my PA a microphone feedbacks if you turn it up more than half. It's the same PA as on page 9

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
11-07-2004, 06:49 PM
I am having some feedback trouble.. threw any input of my PA a microphone feedbacks if you turn it up more than half. It's the same PA as on page 9.

Aes820
11-07-2004, 06:54 PM
Keep the microphones away from the speakers. Or invest in some higher quality microphones.

KissMeIamSh*tFaced
11-07-2004, 07:19 PM
ok... so back up the speakers?

swingish123
11-08-2004, 04:13 PM
do you know if the peavey pr15p's are better than the pr 15's?

BlinkRockr41
11-08-2004, 06:11 PM
Hey I've got a few questions. How do you hook up speakers in parallel? Is there an instruction book that comes with the pa when you buy it that would explain that type of stuff? Also, how many watts are necessary for 1000 people sized venues, and would I have to mic anything, a 100W 112 guitar combo, a 120W 115 bass combo or drums, for that size. Thanks

Aes820
11-08-2004, 08:14 PM
do you know if the peavey pr15p's are better than the pr 15's?
The PR15Ps are powered speakers. That is to say they have got a built in power amplifier. This is why they cost a lot more.

If you buy the PR15Ps then you wont need a poweramp, you can run them straight off the outputs of that Behringer mixer you were originally looking at.

If you buy the PR15s then you will need a poweramp. To run in between the mixer and the speakers. And that will cost you more dollars.

You'll have to add up the cost of each yourself to find out which would be more economical.

The PR15s will be better suited if you wish to upgrade in the future. Like if you just run them off a 2x100 poweramp for now, you can later upgrade up to a 2x400 watt poweramp.

And with the PR15Ps, you'll be pretty much stuck with their 270 watts each. But, that is not to say that they wont be loud. The PR15Ps are biamped. which means that they could perform a lot better and sound way louder than their rated power.
One of these 270 watt biamped powered speakers could sound just as loud as a 400 watt unpowered speaker.

Aes820
11-08-2004, 08:23 PM
Hey I've got a few questions. How do you hook up speakers in parallel? Is there an instruction book that comes with the pa when you buy it that would explain that type of stuff? Also, how many watts are necessary for 1000 people sized venues, and would I have to mic anything, a 100W 112 guitar combo, a 120W 115 bass combo or drums, for that size. Thanks
Often, speakers have two connections on the back of them so you can connect up additional speakers to them in parrallel.

But, when connecting up additional speakers in parrallel you must be aware that you will change the ohm loadings on your amp. And running at unsafe ohm loadings can cause damage to your equipment.

Diagrams and more info about parrallel and series wiring of speakers can be found here: http://www.termpro.com/articles/spkrz.html

To your second question: 1000 people is pretty big. And depending on the size of the venue I think you'll need at least 2x500 watts, and plenty of speaker area. It may also be an advantage if you have a powered suwoofer to fill in for those lower frequencies.

I also think it'll fdefinately be a good idea if you mic up. You'll probably need to mic up everything.
Monitors may also be needed, dependign on the stage area and how you set up. Monitors will definately be needed for vocals tho.

moaner
11-09-2004, 03:44 PM
Just checking aes, it is ok to connect two XLR leads to eachother to make one longer lead?

I only just realised you could do this, that is really clever

Aes820
11-09-2004, 03:56 PM
Yeah. You can use 'em like extension leads.
But very long cable runs can degrade sound quality.

BlinkRockr41
11-09-2004, 06:46 PM
Often, speakers have two connections on the back of them so you can connect up additional speakers to them in parrallel.

But, when connecting up additional speakers in parrallel you must be aware that you will change the ohm loadings on your amp. And running at unsafe ohm loadings can cause damage to your equipment.

Diagrams and more info about parrallel and series wiring of speakers can be found here: http://www.termpro.com/articles/spkrz.html

To your second question: 1000 people is pretty big. And depending on the size of the venue I think you'll need at least 2x500 watts, and plenty of speaker area. It may also be an advantage if you have a powered suwoofer to fill in for those lower frequencies.

I also think it'll fdefinately be a good idea if you mic up. You'll probably need to mic up everything.
Monitors may also be needed, dependign on the stage area and how you set up. Monitors will definately be needed for vocals tho.


Thanks. I also forgot a few things, do the monitors need to be a certain wattage compared to the mains, like is there a general rule? Also, what is about the minimum wattage for a power amp that you would need monitors? I'm trying to see if my band really needs monitors or not, for instance, for a 340W/ch power amp w/ 300W mains, how many watts should the monitors be.

Aes820
11-09-2004, 08:56 PM
There is no set rule. Monitor power depends on the size of the stage area, the complexity of the monitoring setup, and the bands own onstage volume.
But, I think you'll be pretty right with 100 watt monitors.

My band uses our old practise PA for monitors.
You know those little 4 channel 100 watt powered mixers that you can get on musiciansfriend for a couple of hundred bucks? They do the job for us.

moaner
11-18-2004, 09:58 AM
bumping since this has slipped back to page 3, and is quite important.

It should also be in the archive.

Johnny 5
11-19-2004, 10:32 AM
There is no set rule. Monitor power depends on the size of the stage area, the complexity of the monitoring setup, and the bands own onstage volume.
But, I think you'll be pretty right with 100 watt monitors.

My band uses our old practise PA for monitors.
You know those little 4 channel 100 watt powered mixers that you can get on musiciansfriend for a couple of hundred bucks? They do the job for us.

I disagree, any good stage will require at least 300 watts for the monitors. If you're a small band playing small stages, then yes 100 is fine, but if you have more than 3 people, I say step it up to at least 300 watts. It doesn't have to be crystal clear so you won't be spending tons of money on a setup.

moaner
11-19-2004, 03:43 PM
I disagree, any good stage will require at least 300 watts for the monitors. If you're a small band playing small stages, then yes 100 is fine, but if you have more than 3 people, I say step it up to at least 300 watts. It doesn't have to be crystal clear so you won't be spending tons of money on a setup.

How big is a "Decent" stage? I think that a 100w monitor near to each person would be enough on any stage.

moaner
11-19-2004, 05:01 PM
hi aes,

I guess I'm asking on behalf of my Dad, but now he's explained it me me I guess I don't get it either.

Why does micing up an amp sound better than just using the line out going straight to PA? The way my Dad put it was along the lines of

You go guitar --> pre-amp ---> power amp--> Speaker --> mic --> (Mixer) -->poweramp --->speakers.

surely the part in red only degrades sound quality, as going through an unneccessary mic just increases unwanted distortion? Its really repeating what happens through the PA.
So why does micing up (supposedly?) sound better?

Aes820
11-21-2004, 02:50 AM
I disagree, any good stage will require at least 300 watts for the monitors. If you're a small band playing small stages, then yes 100 is fine, but if you have more than 3 people, I say step it up to at least 300 watts. It doesn't have to be crystal clear so you won't be spending tons of money on a setup.
Our FOHs are 2 x 300 watts. And we only use 'em for vocals. Our own backline is loud enough for many gigs.
If I were micing up everything, and playing larger venues. Then of course we would need something larer.

Aes820
11-21-2004, 02:56 AM
So why does micing up (supposedly?) sound better?
Because you are capturing to sound of the amp's power section and the speaker.
A line out is just a signal taken from direct from the amp's preamp, ran through a very small internal Solid State (Opamp) amplifier (perhap 1-2 watts) and then taken to the PA.

The sound of the power section (especially a tube power section) is where most of the good sounding stuff comes from out of the amp. And then you've got the tonal characteristics of the speaker and the cabinet to pick up also.
Micing it up is usually better.
But it depends on the quality of the mic, the amp, the PA, etc.

Johnny 5
11-22-2004, 09:28 AM
How big is a "Decent" stage? I think that a 100w monitor near to each person would be enough on any stage.

Dimension? I have no idea, but a bar that actually has a stage as opposed to setting up on the floor in the corner. You should have more than 100 watts. To give you an idea, in my last band we ran 4 monitors with over 500 watts in each. Eventually we moved on to IEMs, but until then we were using a good amount of power. We played one club that had over 20,000 watts running the monitors alone. It was a little overkill, but sounded amazing.

moaner
11-22-2004, 12:48 PM
Dimension? I have no idea, but a bar that actually has a stage as opposed to setting up on the floor in the corner. You should have more than 100 watts. To give you an idea, in my last band we ran 4 monitors with over 500 watts in each. Eventually we moved on to IEMs, but until then we were using a good amount of power. We played one club that had over 20,000 watts running the monitors alone. It was a little overkill, but sounded amazing.

No, I've played in a venue with a fairly cosy stage, but it wasn't just setting up in the corner, no way. We had 2 100w monitors at the front, more than enough, a freinds band was ona stage 3x the size, still only had 3 ~150w monitors. 20 000w of monitoring? You are utterly crazy. Most monitors only come as 100w anyway, 200w max. Even 4x500w monitors is as an absolute limit twice the wattage you could ever use. Jesus due, you wouldn't have 20 000W of FOH anywhere short of a stadium.

And it "sounded amazing"? Yup, the monitoring really rocked.

Johnny 5
11-22-2004, 02:10 PM
No, I've played in a venue with a fairly cosy stage, but it wasn't just setting up in the corner, no way. We had 2 100w monitors at the front, more than enough, a freinds band was ona stage 3x the size, still only had 3 ~150w monitors. 20 000w of monitoring? You are utterly crazy. Most monitors only come as 100w anyway, 200w max. Even 4x500w monitors is as an absolute limit twice the wattage you could ever use. Jesus due, you wouldn't have 20 000W of FOH anywhere short of a stadium.

And it "sounded amazing"? Yup, the monitoring really rocked.


True, it was this place in Long Island, I thought the same thing when the guy was explaining it to me. Granted they didn't push the thing to deafen us, and I'm not 100% it was really 20,000 watts or just alot of talk, but the clarity of those speakers I've yet to hear again anywhere. It was quite the system. But yeah, no one ever needs that. I guess it mainly depends on how loud your band is then. I like to have alot of headroom. I don't think I've ever pushed my monitors up to the 500 mark, but I like to know that if I need it, it's there. Especially for outdoor shows. But we built our monitors from 12" mains that we were replacing.

BlinkRockr41
11-24-2004, 08:39 PM
Hi, my band is looking at getting this setup for our first PA:

1. Nady XA-900 Pro Stereo Power Amp (300W @ 4 ohms)
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_id/60180

2.Eurorack UB1202 Mixer
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_id/88618

3.2 Nady PS112 12" 300W 2-Way Full-Range Speakers
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/609000/

We're trying to save money, but would this equipment be too cheap, too poor quality? We also might consider these, would they be a better choice?

Kustom KPM8420 PA Package
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/630544/

or

Passport P-250 Portable Sound System
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/480616/

We want something somewhat inexpensive, but still a decent quality
Thanks for the help

Aes820
11-24-2004, 11:18 PM
Getting the tree bits seperate would be good if you plan on upgrading at a later time. You can add on things easier and replace things easier. (for example, you can buy a larger mixer while keeping the same poweramp + speakers)

The packaged setups is good because it also includes speaker stands, microphones, and the powered mixer has more power. And it seems to be very reasonably priced.

Hmm, If I were you I would go for the Kuston packaged setup. Just because it is good value for money. And seems to have everything you need in it.
Including some other fairly nice features as part of the powered mixer that you wont get on the other setup.
For the looks of it, it should do an alright job.
It'll be simpler to setup and use (not having to worry about loadings off the poweramp). And those Nady speakers on their own have seem to have gotten some bad reviews.