The PA Thread

[Manimal]

I'm no PA expert but I like to contribute so here goes:

I highly doubt that system was rated at RMS. 200 watts RMS should have been plenty loud. You say it gives you 200 watts x 2 at 8 ohms and its not enough. Perhaps you could try using a 4 ohm load (The description says 2 x 400 watts so I asume thats a 4 ohm load they are talking about) and get more power out of it. Or you could brigde it and run your speakers in parrelel.

Honestly I think its your speakers that are keeping you from getting your desired volume.

[moaner]

its unlikely you'd have volume problems with a 200w system in a classroom. As yo your clipping problem- some kind of limiter (like the one vuilt inoto the behringer MIC200) might help.

[Aes820]

Could anyone possibly offer a technical explanation as to why running a vocal mic into a guitar amp would damage it?

In my understanding. Because of the difference in impedence between the mic and that of an average guitar pickups. The mic will cause the input stage of the guitar amp to overdrive much easier.
Having the input stages constantly overdriven will wear eventually them out.
In much the same way as running something like an overdrive pedal with very high settings into a little amp will, after time, wear it out.

Also, bare in mind. That those who run setups like this often run these amps with their volume maxed out also. Which does little to prevent long term damage.

From my own experience, I have heard little practise amps that have been abused like this. And they do sound as if they are completely worn out. As if they are always distorted. Full of sand.

[Aes820]

So.. I put it a nice level, so that vocals can be heard well, and I can actually hear myself sing and so can the other members. Unfortunately to do this, the mains have to be turned quite high.. atleast ¾.
When I sing normally, the lights reach about -5, ie 2 lights.. but then when I sing harder its constantantly around the +3 mark… which scares the crap outta me, since I could go even harder, and im holding back. So I usually have to pull away from the mic (even though im never that close to it in the first place). Once I screamed pretty hard and the LIM light was reached momentarily.. which really pissed me off… means I have to hold back on a system that isn’t producing a good level for me… and again.. our drummer is just a normal drum, ie doesn’t hit the drums hard.. and the electric guitars are loud..but not deafining loud…

Even when playing just acoustic (no electric guitar), when I sing normally its great, but when I push it vocally, and even pull away from the mic, the lights approach the +3 and LIM…

The system (which pretty much runs at 200rms at 8ohms) does preduce very very clear sound which is great.. but we are already reaching its limits.. and we aren’t even playing live at a bigger venue.
Gidday Steve.
Um. I'd like to see how you've got this all setup. Because I cannot see how this setup could not be as loud as you'll ever need.

I've got a couple of 300 watt powered speakers and these are seriously loud. I've rarely even come close to limiting these things, even while gigging.

Give me a call, one evening this week. Anytime after 5pm.
0411 295 116

[aussiegnr]

Hey there Chris.. yeah im puzzled as well...
Everyone ive talked to, prior to testing this system out, including the local music shop and musical internet buddies, say that what i have will be awesome...
Something is a miss though...
Speakers say 200w rms @ 8 ohms (400w peak), and amp gives out 2 x 200w @ 8 ohms.. so it definately would be capable of reaching around that figure.. im guessing thatd be the max output????

But again, some guy told me recently that 150w speakers (im pretty sure he meant at 8ohms since most speakers are at 8ohms.. well ones ive seen on ebay) would more than enough for a pub gig.

Dont get me wrong.. i play these speakers pretty loud... im about 4 or so metres away from the speakers when i sing and play my accoustic guitar and can hear them well... but that this ideal level (which i know isnt deafining loud) the levels on the amp reach the top if sing hard...
im thinking maybe the speakers are dodgy... or something i dont know... or can it be the mic??? i have a shure but its a pg variety.. not the best.. but still ok..worth bout $100 australian... nah it cant be the mic

ok, ill give u a call chris.. thanks for that. Id really appreciate some help. Im almost 100% that i have this all set up correctly.. i mean itd be kinda hard to not set it up properly heheh but yeah.. im open to any help..cause as i said..somethings just not right. As i was expecting, getting to the ideal volume level of vocals over drums and electric guitar, with only about Half of the max amp output. Anyways.. ill give u a call soon, and ill let u guys on this forum know how it goes.... im sure people will learn something from this hahah who knows .. ill keep ya all posted... i may not have to sell the system after all. And thanks for all the comments guys, much appreciated ;)
cheers,
steve

[aussiegnr]

I'm no PA expert but I like to contribute so here goes:

I highly doubt that system was rated at RMS. 200 watts RMS should have been plenty loud. You say it gives you 200 watts x 2 at 8 ohms and its not enough. Perhaps you could try using a 4 ohm load (The description says 2 x 400 watts so I asume thats a 4 ohm load they are talking about) and get more power out of it. Or you could brigde it and run your speakers in parrelel.

Honestly I think its your speakers that are keeping you from getting your desired volume.

Thanks for your input dude.. much appreciated.
Well i hope this helps..The amp i got says 2 x 400 @ 4 ohms, and 2 x 200w @ 8 ohms... this figure is whats important i think, since the speakers i got are at 8ohm rating. These are the speakers i got:
http://www.accusound.com.au/PA_Series.html
SPECIFICATIONS
System 2 Way Trapezoidal
Power Rating 50-200 Watts RMS
(400 watts Peak)
Frequency Response 25-20 000Hz
SPL 96 dB@1watt/1metre
Impedance 8 ohms Nominal
Components 1 x 380mm (15”) Long-throw LF Driver
1 x 25mm (1”) HF Compression Horn
Colour Black Carpet Finish
with ABS Protective Corners & Carry Handles
Weight 18.25 Kgs each
Dimensions 585mm(H) x 448mm(W) x 430mm(D)

Before i bought them, i asked the RMS, he said comfortably at 200w rms..
even the box says the power handling (which i guess is similar to rms) is at 200w rms.. and peak is 400w.

So unless there is some false advertising i cant see how ive stuffed the matching of speakers to amp hmm its interesting. BTW..does the db have much to do with it??.. mine are at 96db.

My speaker cables are 10m long.. that couldnt be the reason right???
well talk soon,
steve

[painball]

I am considering buying a Peavey PV-115 15" cab to go along with my PA system I'm scrapping together. I think I understand most of this stuff at this point, but I'd like to clear up a few hazy parts of my understanding.

The speakers are rated at 300W program, 600W peak @ 8ohms. So if I ran them in parrallel, I'd need a power amp that can drive 2x600 @4ohms, correct? Or would I only need 2x300? Some guides on the internet aren't as helpful as they are confusing...

[Aes820]

The speakers are rated at 300W program, 600W peak @ 8ohms. So if I ran them in parrallel, I'd need a power amp that can drive 2x600 @4ohms, correct? Or would I only need 2x300? Some guides on the internet aren't as helpful as they are confusing...
If you'll just be running two speakers off the one poweramp. You'll need a poweramp rated at near enough to 2x300 watts while at 8 ohms. (although many poweramps are rated at 4 ohms, so in which case you'll need a 2x600 watt while at 4 ohm poweramp).

Dont worry about Series or Parrallel connections unless you are combining more than one speaker off one of the poweramps outputs.

[painball]

Why exactly would you double the wattage when you halve the resistance? Wouldn't that overdrive the amp and speakers?

[airborne50caliber]

whats the diffference ebtween resistance and impedance, or is impedance just the american word for it?

[moaner]

whats the diffference ebtween resistance and impedance, or is impedance just the american word for it?

hmmm... They are essentially the same thing, you'd just use them in different contexts i think.

[Aes820]

Why exactly would you double the wattage when you halve the resistance? Wouldn't that overdrive the amp and speakers?
Total Output power = Amps rated output power x (amps rated ohms / ohms of the load)

That above equation lets you work out the output power of the amp dependant on what load it is being ran through.
If an amp is rated to put out 200 watts while through 4 ohms.
Yet you are running it through 16 ohms.
Then the output power will be reduced as follows:
200 x (4 / 16) = 50 watts

If you run it through a 2 ohm load:
200 x (4/2) = 400 watts

Amps may have an indicator on them that they cannot be ran at less than a specific amount of ohms. For reasons that if you do then you may cause damage to the amp due to heat.
Many amps cannot be ran at less than 4 ohms. Some others can handle down to 2 ohms, but these usually have large cooling fans and heatsinks built into them.
So, provided your amp can handle it, you can work out the total load of the speakers you can take off the amp in accordance with the output power of the amp.

airborne50caliber: Impedence is the resistance of an alternating current. As apposed to a straight DC resistance.
Audio signals are an alternating current, therefore speakers have an impedence rating.
Some frequencies may be resisted to differnt amounts. The average amount that the entire frequency responce range is resisted by the speaker is known as the impedence.

[Platinum_warlock]

thank god for this thread

im looking into buying a PA that would have 3 inputs going into it most of the time, a bass, and 2 mics, i went to mothers music recently and found what i think is a pretty good deal but i wanted to run by it with some people taht know what thier doing since i dont always trust the store clerks

i want to buy the Yamaha STAGEPAS it has 4 inputs and a control panel, obviously, and 2 150 watt speakers, the guy tested it out at the store and he filled up the large store just lightly saying test test, im looking for something that can be used for small shows and will last me a long while, small shows like garages and possibly community centers, i know if 3 inputs are running itll take away alot of teh juice, but im just wondering if the price at $840 canadian for the Yamaha STAGEPAS is to good to be true, thanks

[Aes820]

That sounds like a pretty good purcahse. If you are happy with it then go for it.

But... When running bass through the PA, you really are cutting down a lot on the capabilities of the PA. It should be fine to run a couple of mics into during practising and some smaller gigs. But once you run bass through it, it will struggle to keep up.

Perhaps you may be better off upgrading the bassists amp so that they do not need to run through the PA.

[Platinum_warlock]

really? i was to belive you could run anything through there, do you mean itll struggle to keep up because im putting a bass in there and the mics, or because its just a bass and it wont work well with 3 inputs, if thats the case, would it work well with only one mic and the bass?

[Aes820]

Bass works a lot with lower frequencies. And to accurately reproduce these frequencies and for them to be loud enough you need a lot of headroom (or watts).
If you dont have heaps of power spare, you could get an unwanted distortion coming into your sound. And the rest of what you are running through the PA will also suffer.

To successfully run bass and vocals through a PA, I think you'd need a minimum of around 600 watts or so. But once agin this depends on the size of the venue you will be playing at.

I'd reccomend you just use that PA for the vocals. And see if you could borrow or save up for a bigger amp for the basist.

[Platinum_warlock]

alright sounds good, thanks alot for your help

[moaner]

in a more electronics than PA sense, but i'm sure you'll know...

1. would i be ok splitting a signal into the 2 inputs of a stereo amp, and then connecting the outputs together?

2. if each output was designed for a 4 ohm load, would i want an 8, 4 or 2 ohm load?

[Aes820]

No. Do not connect the outputs together.
It should be okay to just parrallel split the input signal. But keep each output of the poweramp completely sepearate.
If you want to bridge a poweramp you will need to buy one that can actually be bridged. Otherwise, just stick to using it in stereo or only one channel at a time if needs be.

[moaner]

ok, thanks.

[Ozduck]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23785&item=7320979019&rd=1

would that be good with a couple of speakers that i have?? i dont really know the specs of the speakers but they are big ?? lol

thanks

[Aes820]

If the speakers that you have are 8 ohm speakers, they will need to be rated at at least 200 watts each.
If so, yes.
But it really does depend on the specs of the speakers.

[Ozduck]

well it damage the speakers if they arnt the right specs.. even if just testing them starting like at a low volume??

[airborne50caliber]

if the impedance matching is way off, things might get damaged independant of the operating level.

[Sacto-Grrrl]

Hello boys and girls,
First post here - hope I'm not screwing it up.

I'm in my first band; I sing lead and play rythm guitar. We have a bass player who also sings backup, and a drummer, and we play rock/pop-punk. I've never known anything about sound equipment before, but have recently purchased a bunch of stuff and I'm learning.

Here's my questions-
1.) I have a Yamaha EMX5000 combo mixer/pa and a pair of Yamaha S115V (15") main speakers. 500 watts or 1,000 watts bridged power. We will only run 2 vocal mic's through them. Should be plenty powerful for local bar gigs, I hope. But, in practice, I STILL can't hear my vocals. So I'm considering a monitor. I guess it makes the most sense to get the Yamaha 15" monitor, right? Any thoughts on that?? In that case, I guess I will have to bridge the 2 mains, right? How is that done? Through a basic speaker cable?

2.) Are there some basic principles for setting up the stage sound equipment that helps avoid feedback?

I know this is all probably very elementary to most of you. I appreciate your help! Rock on~

[moaner]

trust me, speaking in intelligble english has already but you in the top 5% of newbies.

1.) I have a Yamaha EMX5000 combo mixer/pa and a pair of Yamaha S115V (15") main speakers. 500 watts or 1,000 watts bridged power. We will only run 2 vocal mic's through them. Should be plenty powerful for local bar gigs, I hope. But, in practice, I STILL can't hear my vocals. So I'm considering a monitor. I guess it makes the most sense to get the Yamaha 15" monitor, right? Any thoughts on that?? In that case, I guess I will have to bridge the 2 mains, right? How is that done? Through a basic speaker cable?

15" monitor would be great, but a little unnecessary if you're only putting vocals through it- a !2" one would do you fine.

Bridging the amp (if it is explicitly possible) would be done with a switch on the amp. but since you could pick up a powered 12" monitor for not too much more than a high end 15" passive, i'd advise doing that.

[Aes820]

Sacto-Grrrl:
Welcome to the forums.
First off; 2x500 watts should be plenty enough. Very suitable for pub gigs.
But, of course, while on stage with the rest of a band, if may be difficult to hear yourself. And, in that case monitors might be a good idea.

Even tho it is possible to split your PA to handle both main mix and monitoring systems. I am enclined to advise against it. Because doing so will reduce the poweroutput of your main speakers and will prevent you from making use of the stereo dynamics.

Instead, purchase yourself a powered speaker. Something like this:
http://www.peavey.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/91259/number/00392610/cat/98/begin/1/112PM%3F+Floor+Monitor.cfm
Run this off one of the Aux send outputs on your PA.
And because it is self powered you wont have to worry about the loadings off your PA, or bridging.
It defiantely makes it easier.

[Aes820]

Steve:

1. It wont be 'twice as loud' per-se. Although it will be considerably louder.
Because of the extra speaker area and increase in power. You may have an increase in loudness of about 6dB.
And although 6dB may not sound like much in words, it may very well sound like a lot when you are standing infront of it.

(for it to be 'twice as loud' there'll need to be an increase by about 12dB)

With this +6dB increase in mind. You may find that you'll be able to reach similar volumes as you used to have while the level meter on your PA was reaching 0dB (with just the two speakers). But now with the level meter reaching around -6dB.
So, think about how loud your setup was when the level meter was up at 0dB. With the extra speakers on, it may be that loud while the level meter is at -6dB.

2. Those 4 core Speakon connectors are for use in larger PA setups where you biamp the speakers. That is you have a seperate amplifier for the high frequencies and the low frequencies.
Those outputs on the back of your speakers are just for the parrallel connection on additional speakers. Your speakers cannot be biamped.

You can just use a meter or so 2 core cable, with the NL2FC connectors. For each speakers. Like you have shown in your diagram.
There will be no need to replace those long speakers cables of yours.

How you have drawn the diagram is spot on correct. :)

[aussiegnr]

Hey there guys,
Just recently posted a question to Chris aka Aes820, but ill also send it here in case others can help aswell or learn from stuff im going through.
I have:
1. Powered mixer with 2 x 400w @ 4 ohm or 2 x 200w @ 8 ohm.. and
2. i currently have 2 x 200w rms @ 8ohm loud speaker cabinets connected...
and i use the PA to connect mic and semi accoustic guitar..and play with a drummer, and a lead guitarist who uses his own amp.

Recently i posted that the vocals still werent that loud..or that i had to really crank the levels up close to max to reach acceptable vocal levels in comparison to drums and electric guitar. And got Chris to listen to it (i live in the same city and gave him a test listen), so i could atleast know if there was a problem.. thankfully its all good, ie. as loud as it should be. Thanks again for that Chris, i appreciate the time u took to help out ;)

So BASICALLY I WANT MY SYSTEM TO BE LOUDER (eg vocals so i dont have to strain and be able to hear myself) WITHOUT GETTING EVEN CLOSE TO MAX...

So what ill most likely do is keep what i have already, and get myself 2 more 200rms @ 8ohm speakers, and connect them so i have 2 loudspeakers on L and 2 on R..... this will essentially make me use all the power of my amp, ie. each side will have 400w rms @ 4ohm.
Heres a pic to explains what i have in mind:
http://s25.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=35M0N70PYJVEU2G64LGN31FHCV
As the pic suggests, the cool thing about this is that if infact we decide to gig (currently just havin fun jamming but wanting good sound quality), i could even hook up an active/powered monitor speaker to the preamped connection.

A couple of questions:
1. Will this new setup i want (2 extra speakers as the pic shows) mean approx twice as loud how i can get it now? im hoping to be able to get it a bit louder than how we have it now, but at a comfortable level, without even getting close to the clipping light...

2. The only drawback to a system like this one i want (as in the pic) is the weight of it all (4 speakers instead of 2). Thankfully the school i work and jam at has good storage facilities for me so its not that bad. But..is there anywhere one can get single 400w rms @ 4ohm speaker cabinets (with both subwoofer and horn in the one cabinet)??ive only seen one on the net after extensive searching, and that was just a subwoofer.. itd make things so much easier if i could use 2 x 400w rms @ 4ohm speaker cabinets.... meaning just 2 speakers instead of the 4 im currently gonna do.

I was actually thinking of getting a single 800w rms speaker (sub and horn) if they exist, and just bridge it, so that id have only one mother of a speaker to carry round..
But for possible future gigging this one speaker approach probably wouldnt work too well.. guess id be better to half it and have a speaker on each side.. which again is why id love 400w rms @ 4 ohm speakers :)

My Initial goal (and i guess it still stands today) was to get a POWERFUL System, so that vocals could be heard clear and loud over the drums and lead guitar, and to be able to do this very comfortably (using bout 1/2 - 3/4 of max of system), but with the SMALLEST, LEAST amount of equipment. Maybe i need to pay abit more, but money isnt a great issue.. providing its not too much ;)

well thats about it.. any help would be great, and im hoping someone learns from my stuff aswell... after about 2 months of researching this PA stuff.. it is beginning to make good sense. And thanks again to chris and the rest of the helpful guys on this forum.
take care peeps,
steve ;)

[aussiegnr]

Steve:

1. It wont be 'twice as loud' per-se. Although it will be considerably louder.
Because of the extra speaker area and increase in power. You may have an increase in loudness of about 6dB.
And although 6dB may not sound like much in words, it may very well sound like a lot when you are standing infront of it.

(for it to be 'twice as loud' there'll need to be an increase by about 12dB)

With this +6dB increase in mind. You may find that you'll be able to reach similar volumes as you used to have while the level meter on your PA was reaching 0dB (with just the two speakers). But now with the level meter reaching around -6dB.
So, think about how loud your setup was when the level meter was up at 0dB. With the extra speakers on, it may be that loud while the level meter is at -6dB.

2. Those 4 core Speakon connectors are for use in larger PA setups where you biamp the speakers. That is you have a seperate amplifier for the high frequencies and the low frequencies.
Those outputs on the back of your speakers are just for the parrallel connection on additional speakers. Your speakers cannot be biamped.

You can just use a meter or so 2 core cable, with the NL2FC connectors. For each speakers. Like you have shown in your diagram.
There will be no need to replace those long speakers cables of yours.

How you have drawn the diagram is spot on correct. :)


Hey chris, thanks for the quick reply hahah well that post u replyed to was bit fkd up cause i accidently (in the middle of finishing and editing) pressed the submit before id finished.. so i just deleted it an sent the finished version :)
Still thanks for the help.. great to hear i can use the NL2FC cables :) and just buy some shorter ones of the same kind ;)
And thanks for explaining the volumes of sound and ofcourse the confirmation of the pic ;)

Quick one on the Volume levels..u say to be twice as loud id need an extra 12db...
So whats more important for greater volume, db or watts??
these speakers i have are 96 dB@1watt/1metre.. well thats the SPL says, whatever that means..
If i happened to find some 200w rms cabinets with higher dbs.. thatd be better for volume right??
Ive noticed alot of active or powered speakers having high dbs eg 126db
IS that why these little speakers are so fkn loud hahah
Ill probably get one for a monitor oneday.

I was actually thinking of getting 2 powered speakers to replace my passive cabinet speakers, but thatd defeat the purpose of my powered mixer hehe..
which leads to the following question..
Would an option be to simply buy a mixer (not powered) + 2 powered speakers (300w with 120+db each).. i guess the only drawback to that would be ultimate future flexibility and having to use a few power outputs.. instead of the one im using now.. ie. just to power the powered mixer. Would this option be louder with a smaller package..if u know what i mean??

anyways dinners ready hehe.. talk later thanks again,
steve :)

[PainKiller8191]

^ It'll ruin it after time. It is normally fine to run vocals through a guitar amp. But after a while, (about 9 months or so) your amp will sound like crap.
As in, dont use your 'good' amp.

The range of frequencies of the human voice, and the levels of the vocal mic constantly overdriving the input stages of the guitar amp, does eventually take its toll.

For those in bands who are a bit strapped for cash and cant afford a proper PA. Just go to a second hand store and buy an old cheap guitar amp. Use that until you can afford something more permanent.

i hate my dad so much....hes like ya were gonna need a mic and an amp for a speech....now i dont have any speakers or cabs or anything i just have a 65w guitar amp, i use my mics for recording with headphones....

and also, my guitar amp is blown because we used it as a mic amp a couple times against my approval....so now he's saying well i payed for it its my amp so im gonna use it......now im taking off and he has no clue how to set anything up i hope he breaks everything

[Aes820]

That '96 dB@1watt/1metre' thing describes the speakers efficiency. For passise speakers, like yours, you'd expect anything under 100dB@1w/1m. Although the more the better. Those speaker you've got are very good speakers for what they are.
And I think you'd be hard pressed to find more efficient ones.

Those two powered speakers that I have got have an efficiency of 126dB.
Because, of course, they are active and they are internally biamped.

They are 300 watt speakers each. Although 220 of those watts are for the sub driver, and 80 watts are for the tweeter. So, that's what i mean by biamped. One 220 watt amp just for the sub, and one 80 watt amp, just for the tweeter. But 300 watts all up.

And, heh, you've heard how loud they are, for just little speakers they pack a mean punch. If anyone does ever want to buy some powered speakers for monitors or even FOH speakers. They are a great option.

How loud you'll actually be counts on a lot of things, not just the watts, but also the amount of speaker area you've got, the efficiency of the speakers and of course the natural acoustics of the room you are in.

I would normally tell people that 2x200 watts would be more than enough for jamming with a band. It is unfortunate that you don't feel as if it is enough for you. I hope others who are looking at PAs are not in a similar situation as what you, are and are let down if I tell tham that thier setup would be enough and they find that it isn't.

If you go off the "10 watts per person" rule, which I guess is an industry standard. You'd would think that a total output of 400 watts from your PA would be enough for a room with 40 people in it.

But, even tho powered speakers are good, you don't have much room for upgradability with them. It's totally up to you because it is your money, but just see how you go with those extra two speakers for your setup. It may very well be plenty loud enough.

Then, perhaps if you do later buy some powered speakers you could use them just for practising on their own. And add them onto your bigger PA for gigs. Just an option, i guess.

[moaner]

i hate my dad so much....hes like ya were gonna need a mic and an amp for a speech....now i dont have any speakers or cabs or anything i just have a 65w guitar amp, i use my mics for recording with headphones....

and also, my guitar amp is blown because we used it as a mic amp a couple times against my approval....so now he's saying well i payed for it its my amp so im gonna use it......now im taking off and he has no clue how to set anything up i hope he breaks everything

its unlikely that putting a mic through it twice would blow a guitar amp, realistically.

[PainKiller8191]

noo theyve done it like fifty million times....i had just realized it damages it a couple weeks ago when my speaker blew

[aussiegnr]

That '96 dB@1watt/1metre' thing describes the speakers efficiency. For passise speakers, like yours, you'd expect anything under 100dB@1w/1m. Although the more the better. Those speaker you've got are very good speakers for what they are.
And I think you'd be hard pressed to find more efficient ones.

Those two powered speakers that I have got have an efficiency of 126dB.
Because, of course, they are active and they are internally biamped.

They are 300 watt speakers each. Although 220 of those watts are for the sub driver, and 80 watts are for the tweeter. So, that's what i mean by biamped. One 220 watt amp just for the sub, and one 80 watt amp, just for the tweeter. But 300 watts all up.

And, heh, you've heard how loud they are, for just little speakers they pack a mean punch. If anyone does ever want to buy some powered speakers for monitors or even FOH speakers. They are a great option.

How loud you'll actually be counts on a lot of things, not just the watts, but also the amount of speaker area you've got, the efficiency of the speakers and of course the natural acoustics of the room you are in.

I would normally tell people that 2x200 watts would be more than enough for jamming with a band. It is unfortunate that you don't feel as if it is enough for you. I hope others who are looking at PAs are not in a similar situation as what you, are and are let down if I tell tham that thier setup would be enough and they find that it isn't.

If you go off the "10 watts per person" rule, which I guess is an industry standard. You'd would think that a total output of 400 watts from your PA would be enough for a room with 40 people in it.

But, even tho powered speakers are good, you don't have much room for upgradability with them. It's totally up to you because it is your money, but just see how you go with those extra two speakers for your setup. It may very well be plenty loud enough.

Then, perhaps if you do later buy some powered speakers you could use them just for practising on their own. And add them onto your bigger PA for gigs. Just an option, i guess.

Hey there peeps,

Thanks for the info chris.. that biamp stuff was something i didnt quite understand, since lately ive been looking and researching on Powered Speakers. I will definitely get one bit further down the line for a monitor.. thatd be a great use for it… after listening to the one u had, im sold 

Well as u guys may know, ive gotta powered mixer with 2x400w @ 4ohm or 2x200w @ 8ohms. Been using 2x 200w rms @ 8ohm FOH speakers which for us was just not quite loud enough. Well id have to use most of its power to get the level that we need…

So what i was gonna do was buy 2 more of the same speakers, and add one of these 200w rms @ 8ohm speaker on each side (in parallel), meaning id have 400w rms @ 4ohm on each side… using the full capacity of the powered mixer (2x 400w @ 4 ohm) rather than the 2 x 200w @ 8ohm im currently using. But thatd mean 4 x 18.5kg speakers to carry around... tough on the arms.. plus a couple more speakon cables id have to buy.. other part of town ahhahah
Well, its still an option…

But get this… been doing about a week research looking for 4ohm speakers, so that I could get heaps of power, and only need 2 loud speakers all up. Finally found some in Australia.. :

Samson RS215 2x15 350watt Speaker Enclosure
RS215
Power Rating (@ 8Ω): 350 Watts RMS, 600 Watts Program
Nominal Impedance: 4 Ohms
Frequency Response: 35 Hz – 20 kHz ± 3 dB
Sensitivity: 101 dB SPL @ 1W/1m
MAX SPL: 128dB
LF Driver: 2 x 15-inch heavy-duty driver
HF Driver: 1-inch exit, 44mm Mylar diaphragm compression driver
Protection: Internal overload Lamp on HF driver
Weight: 80 lbs. 36.32 kg
Price $530.00 Australian

My option is to either get the 4 x 200w rms @ 8ohm speakers (400w on each side) as mentioned at top, or get these 2 x 350wrms @ 4ohm speakers. The weight will be the same, but having 2 instead of 4 will be easier… me thinks 

Also, these Samson 350w @ 4ohm speakers have a higher SPL or 101db @ 1w/1m compared to the 8ohm speakers I currently have which have 96db @1w/1m.

So basically its either the 2 x 400w rms (4 x 200w @ 8ohm speakers) at 96db @ 1w/1m….
Or 2 x 350w rms (2 x 350w @ 4ohm speakers) at 101db @ 1w/1m….

Im not asking anyone to make a decision for me, but id like to know what u guys think…
ie. Which would be the best way to go… also which would be loudest.. does the extra 5db make a difference…

And finally.. this is probably a silly question..and one I should have asked to begin with.. but chris… will it be ok for me to simply connect the 2 x 350w 4ohm speakers in my amp….. the same as I did with the 8ohm speakers…. ie. Is a parallel connection (2 x 8ohm speakers) the only way one must achieve the 4ohms?? Yeah silly question hahaha

Well finally like to say.. first sorta gig will be this Thursday.. and im **** scared hahaha im a teacher at this school.. atleast its not infront of an audience as such… its at expo night.. meaning all these activties will be goin on in our gym… but me and my half assed band will be on stage doing about 5 numbers hahah

Heres the set list (all covers) in no particular order:
Patience
Kockin on Heavens Door
Have U ever Seen the Rain
Kashmir
Civil War
Stairway To Heaven..
Funny thing is that I know the words to only 2 of these songs.. ill be reading the words off a sheet for rest hahaha how professional ;)

Btw we did a sound check today..and fkn amazing sound.. the reverb is amazing.. don’t need any on the mix 

Take care,
steve

[Aes820]

Getting some 4 ohm speakers is another good option for you.

They have 2x15" speakers in them. So they will be very bulky. And maybe difficult to transport. Check out their physical dimensions, and see how you go.

The difference in performance between the two 8 ohm cabinets compared to the one 4 ohm cabinet may only be very minimimal. May not be noticeable at all.
I think the main factor you'll have to take into consideration here is the ease of transorting your rig.
Have a think about it, but if it were me I would be more inclined to go for the seperate 8 ohm cabinets. At least you can mount two of them up onto stands, something that you may not be able to do with the 2x15 4 ohmers.

But good luck with the gig this thursday.

[aussiegnr]

Yeah youre right chris.. thats my biggest factor... having the power i need.. but together with the ease of transporting.

Hey chris do u know of any sites to calculate approx loudness of speakers based only on SPL and Max DB and Wattage (not taking the surface area or venue into consideration).
I mean its gonna probably be minimal difference, but would a set of 4 x 200w rms @ 8ohm speakers (each with SPL of 96db 1w/1m dont know the max) be louder than 2 x 350w rms @ 4ohm speakers (each with SPL of 101db 1w/1m and max of round 128)???
Will that extra 5db make some kinda good difference??

Id much rather only 2 set of speakers in terms of transport, but as u say..the samsons are at 2 x 15" which means pretty much the same size.
I have seen some other 350w rms @ 4 ohm cabinets with only the one 15" woofer included, but they cost a bit more.. thatd be great for transport. Still have to suss it out a bit.

The advantage of the 4 x 200w 8ohm speakers i guess is.. that i can position those speakers better.. in many ways etc... as well they have a 5 year warranty.

Still weighing it all up.. but the db is a factor at the moment.. as the 4ohm speakers ive seen so far have a db spl around the 101 mark..and max of 128

back to work,
thanks again chris,
cheers,
steve

[Kosta]

Ok, so, I do vocals in a metal/hardcore/math rock/shoegaze band (yes, we actually do mix all of that). I.. scream.

Anyway, I don't have a big budget. But, I need some active monitor speakers for my vocal amplification. Something that's about as loud as the guitars. Or even a bit louder. I don't know what amp our guitarist uses, but it's an average sized amp - far from the size of a practice amp.

What would be a fairly good budget priced active monitor. Let's say... a 100 watt one. Or 150?

[Aes820]

The way that the efficiency of speakers are noted is somewhat misleading for 4 ohm speakers.
This 1 watt / 1 meter thing is an idustry standard measurement, used for the testing the efficiency of all loudspeakers.
However this is usually taken in reference to 1 watt being equal to 2.83 volts.
But. With 4 ohm speakers, seing as they have only half the impedence of 8 ohm speakers, they require less voltage to do the same thing.
So 2.83 volts through a 4 ohm speaker would infact be equal to 2 watts (that's a +3dB difference).

Now, in english.

To compare the efficiency between the 96dB 8ohm speaker with the 101dB 4ohm speakers, you'll have to take into consideration the difference in ohms between the two, by deducting 3dB off the efficiency of the 4 ohm speaker.

Therefore that one 4 ohm speaker compared to the two 8 ohm speakers will have a difference in efficiency of only 2dB. Not 5dB.
But, that's not all that bad news.
Given that these 4 ohm speakers 2dB are more efficient. They will go about as loud while pumping out 100 watts as what those two 8 ohm speakers would while pumping out about 160 watts.
They will require less power to seem just as loud as the less efficient speakers would.

If you can cope with the fact that they will be harder to transport around, these more efficient speaker cabinets would be a good buy.

As for any actual equations for figuring this all out, I don't know of any, sorry.
But I did find this:
http://www.electrosound.com/Speaker_Facts/v5no8.htm
It explains it technically but in good detail.

[Nicko_Shmicko]

Has anyone heard of wharfedale PA gear?

[Aes820]

Ok, so, I do vocals in a metal/hardcore/math rock/shoegaze band (yes, we actually do mix all of that). I.. scream.

Anyway, I don't have a big budget. But, I need some active monitor speakers for my vocal amplification. Something that's about as loud as the guitars. Or even a bit louder. I don't know what amp our guitarist uses, but it's an average sized amp - far from the size of a practice amp.

What would be a fairly good budget priced active monitor. Let's say... a 100 watt one. Or 150?
A couple of these would probably do the job.
Link (http://www.peavey.com/products/browse.cfm/action/detail/item/91259/number/00392610/cat/98/begin/1/112PM%3F+Floor+Monitor.cfm)

But, even tho active speakers make it easy, they arn't usually budget priced.
Those Peavey ones arn't exactally huge, but if you point them righ tat your face they'll be right.

But if you can afford a few extra dollars, you should definately look into these ones:
http://www.questaudio.net/prod_qsa200.shtml

I havn't heard much about wharfedale gear, sorry.

[Nicko_Shmicko]

I havn't heard much about wharfedale gear, sorry.

Its pretty cheap...like cheaper than behringer cheap so i just want to know what its like

[aussiegnr]

Thanks for that Chris.. thats link u put up was awesome :)
Should have read something like this before purchasing the speakers i got.
The db efficiency is the thing i found most interesting.. and now im beginning to understand it.

I guess it means if i put out around 350w rms through my 8ohm speakers (sensitivity of 96db @ 1m/1w) and 350w rms though my 4ohm speakers (sensitivity of 101d @ 1m/1w - which as u say equates to round 2db extra efficiency) , the 4ohm speakers would be somewhat louder at this wattage.

So in that term, id rather get the 2 x 4ohm samson speakers, but as u say.. i now need to weigh up the transporting of cabinet issue...ill sort that out soon hahah

Oh..and one snag.. just checked the specs of the Samson 4 Ohm Speakers again.. heres what it says:
Power Rating (at 8ohm): 350 Watts RMS, 600 Watts Program
Nominal Impedance: 4 Ohms
Frequency Response: 35 Hz – 20 kHz ± 3 dB
Sensitivity: 101 dB SPL @ 1W/1m
MAX SPL: 128dB
LF Driver: 2 x 15-inch heavy-duty driver
HF Driver: 1-inch exit, 44mm Mylar diaphragm
compression driver
Protection: Internal overload Lamp on HF driver

THe problem i have is what it says at the Power Rating.. ie. says at 8ohms 350w rms. But it says impedance at 4ohms.
I initially thought it meant 350rms at 4ohms.... but now im pretty sure that the 350w rms is at 8ohm.... what do u think chris??
I wonder what rms the speakers are at 4ohm?? ive emailed the site about this.. hoping they get back to me soon.

well im off to do some more research... thanks again for that link ;)
cheers,
steve

[Aes820]

I initially thought it meant 350rms at 4ohms.... but now im pretty sure that the 350w rms is at 8ohm.... what do u think chris??
I wonder what rms the speakers are at 4ohm?? ive emailed the site about this.. hoping they get back to me soon.

That's a good question. I can't think of anything to explain that just now. Perhaps wait till the manufactures get back to you.

[aussiegnr]

Yeah ill do that.. just checkin out some other speakers.
Ive come to realisation (well i did recently anyways) that my powered mixer is all i need.. ie. probably the cheapest powered amp with that much power.. giving the 2 x 400w @ 4ohms.... hence all i need to do now is find the correct speakers.
After lookin at that great Speaker links chris sent a few posts ago, im not only searchin for the 4ohm amps, but also taking a note of the db.

Jeez i hope my questions are helping other people out... or i hope chris answering my questions helps people out hahah
well i have another couple for you chris, if u dont mind :)
I just saw some speakers and it has the following spec regarding db:
Sensitivity: 98dB 1 Watt / 1 Meter.
Maximum Output SPL at 1 Meter: 120dB Continous 126dB Peak.

I thought Sensitivity was what the speakers Continuous db was...
Whats the difference... are there any good links on these.. ill have a search for some now.. and see what i can find.. if i get a good one..ill send it in.. its the least i can do with all the help uve been doing.

btw.. i finally overcame my fear.... we gigged first time ever.. was first time ive ever sang in front of more than 2 people.. same with the guitarist and drummer. This was at my school.. infront of my teacher peers.. and students.. 'tough crowd' ahhahah well i have to say although we didnt do our best, due to not getting sound exactly right, some tuning issues, and the drummer goin bit too fast occasionally (i love using the drummer as a scapegoat ahhah), but we did rock :) We didnt get to talk to many people during or after because it was getting late 8pm and most where ready to leave this expo function... but we did get some good feedback, but tommorrow will be the d day.. kinda.. its back to school..and talk will get around bout our performance.. ****..now im nervous hahah nah.. i loved it.. thats the important thing..
We just did covers: Have u ever seen the rain, Knockin on heavens door, Patience, Civil War, Kashmir, Stairway to heaven, Jack n Diane.. and TNT..
Funny how i couldnt sleep the night before.. i was so **** nervous..but prior to the show..when i thought id be most nervous.. i gradually pumped myself up.. did a good warmup with vocals in the music room 20mins prior, then hit the stage in the gym...
so yeah.. the rambling is over... im a quite a shy guy.. and public speaking has been my biggest fear all my life....so jeez im so **** proud of myself (if i can say so myself) and my bandmates for doing this... just makes me wanna do it more. Makes me also wanna get a better sound system even more so... new speakers, plus a monitor would be great.. cant wait.
as u can tell..im pumped... probably wont be able to sleep tnight cause i still have all the energy rush from our first ever gig ;)
cheers,
steve

[Aes820]

Congratulations. For a first gig, I'm sure it went well.

The continuous power output of an amplifier would be rated in watts, RMS. This is like the average power output of an amp.
Because music is always changing, and the audio wave contains many variations in intensity. The power output of an amp is not always consistant.
So, this continuous power output is the average of what the amp will pump out under normal working conditions.
Those speakers will be able to produce a maximum level of 120dB under these conditions while receiving their maximum rated RMS watts.

Peak power is the absolute maximum amount of power that an amp can output. However this peak may only be for fraction of a second. This peak level would be the upper limit of your amplifers performance.
Speakers can peak to, but with speakers, this peak limit describes the absolute maximum amount of power the speaker can receive before damage will occour.

If you consider the fact that everytime you add 3dB you double the power, and there is a 6dB difference in those speakers rated continous to peak rated power handelings.
If, for example, those speakers are rated to handle a maximum of 400 watts continous. Then they will be able to handle an absolute maximum peak of 1600 watts.
This figure can help while shopping for a suitable poweramp for the speakers.
But, If all this doesn't sound too clear. It need not be worried about too much.
The majority of small PA users may not need to know all this.

[aussiegnr]

That makes sense.. got the pic how db rating of speakers relates to max watts ;)
Its getting clearer and clearer which is great.
Ok.. one more thing.. so what does the Sensitivity mean then, ie. : Sensitivity: 98dB 1 Watt / 1 Meter.
This i the the way most specs are shown in regards to specs and speakers..
Alot dont show the continuous spl and max spl.. but rather just the Sensitivity SPL.

well.. back to work..
thanks again chris..
talk soon,
steve

[Aes820]

That "98dB 1 Watt / 1 Meter" thing describes the speakers efficiency.
It is an idustry standard of measurement to guage the peformance of a speaker.
It tells you how good that speaker is at converting an electrical signal into acoustic energy.
And, obviously, the higher the better.

It is a measurement of the sound created by a speaker when it is fed a 2.83 volt signal (equal to 1 watt through an 8 ohm speaker) at a distance of 1 meter.

But. Take note that 2.83 volts through a 4 ohm speaker is equal to 2 watts. So the efficiency of a 4 ohm speaker is always going to be 3dB higher than an 8 ohm counterpart. And when comparing them to each other you must deduct 3dB off the rating of the 4 ohm speaker.

[aussiegnr]

Cool all makes sense... great stuff.
Now just to tie things up one more question: so in terms of db.. is sensitivity spl the thing to look for, ie. that 98db 1w/1m thing....
rather than the Maximum Output SPL at 1 Meter eg. 120dB Continous 126dB Peak??

ie. im thinking that the sensitivity spl or effieciencty, will generally mean a higher continuous or peak.. is this right???

Basically am i right in saying, in terms of checking the effieciency or db rating, all i should look at is Sensitivity SPL?? I do remember u saying if comapared to 2 speakers of the same wattage, if one has sensitiviy of 96db 1w/1m and the other has 99db 1w/1m, that at the same wattage (from the amp) the second speaker would be twice as loud.... or another way to put it... the second speaker can reach the same loudness with half of the wattage used for the 1st speaker??? is this right... well hope so.. if so.. then im getting clearer about it all :)

have a great day chris, and the rest of ya,
steve ;)

[Aes820]

Yeah. When speaker shopping the thing to take note of most is the speaker efficiency.
It is that, combined with the power handeling of the speaker, that the maximum SPL figures are derived from.
But, with highly efficient speakers, comes an equally high price tag.

But, yes, you seem to have a correct understanding of the concepts with speaker efficiency. But the majority of PA buyers need not know this, although it is handy for those who want the best stuff regardless of the price tag.

[aussiegnr]

Excellent stuff chris :) Thanks for all ure help dude.. yeah itll definately help me out :)
Im gonna go to Better music tommorrow.. may well purchase some speakers.
Just recently found another 4ohm speaker, but in this case..its only a single 15" rather than the 2 x 15" of that previous 4ohm samson speaker i spoke about.

These are the speakers:
http://www.musicianswarehouse.com.au/default.aspx?Pg=21&ProductCode=HPS154X

they are peak audio speakers, ... comes in 8ohm(HPS-154X) and 4ohms (HPS-154XA) .. and initially got info that these were 300w rms at 4ohms, but after emailing the peakaudio site, they told me this model has infact been upgraded to 400w rms at 4ohms.. perfect.. well im happy with 350 - 400w rms at 4ohms.
But fact that its a regular sized speaker box makes it even better...
And even better is the fact that they are sold in canberra at Better music and Pro Audio.. so ill check them out tommorrow..and any other 4ohm speakers they have.
The only thing ill check also is the db efficiency ;)

One thing i kinda find unusual though... ive seen this on a number of sites selling speakers... when there is the same speaker cabinet that lets say is 300w rms, and it comes in either 8ohm or 4ohm... but are the same price or slightly different...
id think, considering that the 4ohm allows for much more power use of an amp like mine
that itd be much more expensive...

anyways.. have a good weekend peeps
steve :)

[moaner]

id think, considering that the 4ohm allows for much more power use of an amp like mine
that itd be much more expensive...

I would too, since lower impedance speakers certaintly used to be harder to make.

[aussiegnr]

Yeah.. i still find it weird.. i mean.. when i first got into my PA research.. and finally began looking for a simple setup powered mixer... all powered mixers would advertise their output in 4ohm ratings (or their total bridged output).. so theyd look so promising etc... even though most cabinet speakers come with 8ohm impedance and only use half (or abit above) the 4ohm amp rating.
considering this.. i would think that itd make sense to have more 4ohm speakers available.. its taken me weeks of net search to find some 4ohm speakers that had an rms of 300-400w (at the 4ohm impedance).
I didnt know that 4ohm impedance speakers were harder to make.. maybe thats the reason they are harder to find... this and the fact that they allow for great power usage (louder volumes with a same sized speaker) makes me question the pricing of them...
either way.. im happy that they dont cost much extra hahaha what am i complaining about.. im just curious :)

[devildriver421]

alright right now my band is using this PA system for our singer. and soon we'll be putting our drummer through it, well his bass drum. here (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=packaged/search/detail/base_pid/632200/)
now, its only 80 watts, and my guitar amp is 120, bassist has 120, and of course drummer is loud as hell. so we cant even hear the singer most of the time. hes gonna be upgrading soon. and we're wondering if we can replace just the speakers with something like this (http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=1230&CID=CLB)

not that exact model maybe, but something like that. could we do that, and then replace the mixer later? and will it be much louder with 150w or 300w speakers instead of 40w if we're still using an 80w mixer?

[moaner]

alright right now my band is using this PA system for our singer. and soon we'll be putting our drummer through it, well his bass drum. here (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=packaged/search/detail/base_pid/632200/)
now, its only 80 watts, and my guitar amp is 120, bassist has 120, and of course drummer is loud as hell. so we cant even hear the singer most of the time. hes gonna be upgrading soon. and we're wondering if we can replace just the speakers with something like this (http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=1230&CID=CLB)

not that exact model maybe, but something like that. could we do that, and then replace the mixer later? and will it be much louder with 150w or 300w speakers instead of 40w if we're still using an 80w mixer?

it will be no louder at all. Sorry guys- you just need a bigger system, full stop.

[Aes820]

Yep.
The actual power comes from the PA head.
The power rating of the speakers is merely an indication of how much power those speakers can safely handle. That is, those speakers can handle up to 300 watts.
You'd want to save up for a more powerful PA setup.

[devildriver421]

well my friend doesnt have the money for a whole PA system right now, so he wants to upgrade bit by bit.
whats the difference between actives and passives? because i found passives for $50 each, cheap yes, but 150w. so if he got those speakers could he still use the mixer he has now, and then get a 300w mixer later?
here (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=speakers/search/detail/base_pid/609014/)

also, will the feedback start at a higher volume due to the louder speakers, or is that because of the mixer? so even though the speakers are nearly 4x as powerful, they wont be any louder at all? id think the 80w being pushed through the bigger and more powerful speakers would make it at least a little louder

[Nicko_Shmicko]

Active speakers have the amp built in to the speaker.

[devildriver421]

alright again sorry about all the questions, kinda new to this, and this forum is full of knowledge :thumb: anyway right now with the 80w mixer, could we just buy a 400w speaker and use only one, and then get a big mixer and another speaker? i mean 400w, its not like the mixer is gonna blow it, is it ok to run only one speaker. if not, could i use the 400w and the 40w speaker now? 40w each channel on the mixer

also, could he get the 400w speaker, then a 2x400w mixer, and only run one speaker? its a 800w bridged mixer, if that makes any difference. would that be ok, or would it be all 800w going into the one speaker?

[aussiegnr]

Hi there Devildriver..
well i have to be honest, i dont quite understand the question.. maybe cause im in a rush and didnt get much sleep,
Anyways.. i have a powered mixer rated at 2 x 400w rms each side.. its at 4 ohms, hence im bout to purchase 2 x 350 or 400w rms speakers at 4ohms impedance.
Personally.. id get either 2 of the same speakers, ie. a pair... or if i was to get a single speaker, id get a single powered (active) speaker of around 300w rms, and most powered speakers ive seen have great efficiency, ie. hi sensitiviy, at round 100db+ 1w/1m.

In fact, after i get my 2 x 350-400w rms speakers (which ill use for FOH, ie. facing audience), ill get a single 300w rms powered speaker as a monitor... itll make a big difference...

This probably wont help heaps, but i do know if i was to get only one speaker itd be a powered one..

cheers,
steve

[devildriver421]

actually yea that kind of helped...sorry ill be more clear though:
we have an 80w pa system, with an 80w mixer and two 40w speakers. its not loud enough, so we're gonna upgrade. he doesnt have the money for everything right now, so we're gonna upgrade in pieces. we want to get 2 400w speakers, and a 800w mixer(very very loud i know, but we're gonna be doing shows and micing drums and everything). so could we get one of the 400w speakers for now, run that with his 80w mixer, and then later get the other speaker and the 800w mixer?

[Aes820]

actually yea that kind of helped...sorry ill be more clear though:
we have an 80w pa system, with an 80w mixer and two 40w speakers. its not loud enough, so we're gonna upgrade. he doesnt have the money for everything right now, so we're gonna upgrade in pieces. we want to get 2 400w speakers, and a 800w mixer(very very loud i know, but we're gonna be doing shows and micing drums and everything). so could we get one of the 400w speakers for now, run that with his 80w mixer, and then later get the other speaker and the 800w mixer?
There would be no advantage in doing so.
The 400 watt speaker may not be any noticably louder than the 40 watt speaker.
The power rating on the speakers describe how much power they can handle. Not how much power they can pump out. The output of the PA head is what determins that. And if you are just going to be used with that 80 watt powered mixer, then that is all the power you're going to be getting.

My advice would be to save your money until you can afford to buy a decent system. All at once.

[devildriver421]

yea but its actually cheaper to buy separate, unless you can prove me wrong and find a 800w pa system for less than 650. and ive heard great things about peavey speakers and decent things about behringer. we're not trying to be louder now, we jsut want to buy it in pieces, and i was wondering if we could use the bigger speakers until we do ge the bigger mixer. we'd only have one 400w speaker though, so should we run just that, or that and the 40w speaker? i understand what youre saying about no advantage, but its just easier like this.

[Aes820]

Save your money.
By the time it takes you to save up for the other speaker and powered mixer to go with the one you just blew your money on. Another product may be around that is even better suited to your needs and your budget.
Wait till you've got enough moeny for the whole upgrade. Then decide on what best suits your needs for your budget.

[devildriver421]

i know what youre saying, believe me, i thought about it. the thing is, for about the same price, the best we're gonna get is like 200w, and we have an 80w right now, not nearly enough, and its only the singer, so just imagine when we mic up the drums, and amps for shows and such. i was thinking like 400w, but for a total of like $100 more, we can have 800w. so why not? i mean we'll have the extra power if we ever need it. Its just so much cheaper to buy it all separate, and whats the difference? we'd have everything within like 2 months anyway, so its not like anything big is gonna come out. ill talk to the person whos actually buying it and see what he says though. and thanks for the advice

here (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/631254/) is the pa system with the mixer we're planning on getting. we dont need everything there, but we can get the mixer and speakers for 650, and then with the other 150, get that many mics with cables, and have some money for food after :thumb: its a good deal, we just dont need all of that. we have microphones and cables and everything, so we could save money and get, what im assuming are better speakers, because ive heard great things about peavey.

[aussiegnr]

If we talk australian dollars (youll have to try converting if ure from US)
my 800w powered mixer was about $550... btw.. 800w means 2 x 400w at 4ohm or 2 x 200w at 8ohm... so if u gonna get 400w speakers, make sure they are 4ohms.
8ohm speakers are easier to find, so if u wanna get them, get about 150w - 200w rms. I personally, from my experience, would go for the pair of 350-400w rms speakers which have impedance of 4 ohm..... and make sure they have good efficiency.. ie sensitivity..
Im getting a pair of 350-400wrms at 4ohm speakers with db sensitivity of 101db @ 1w/1m.. and theyll cost bout $500 each..
so..its $1500 all up.. well worth it i reckon... all i need now is a decent monitor.. for that ill get a single powered box about 300w rms... and yeah..bout $2000 all up.. i think thats a pretty good price for a whole set up thats pretty flexible.. ie. the mixer is..
cause im getting 4ohm speakers, means i have less flexibility in terms of stacking more speakers on top etc... but thats not a problem, since these 2 speakers will ..or should/fingers crossed, be easily enough power/volume for our use...
great thing about my powered mixer is that i can also put in a poweramp if id want to add more speakers.. alot can be done with these powered boxes.. so i do recommend one..
btw.. i have the Behringer PMH880S EUROPOWER... cheapest powered mixer ive seen with that amount of power and flexibility.. so far so good.. :)

Yeah like chris says..if u plan on getting a decent system, save and buy the powered mixer and 2 cabinet foh speakers in one go... make sure they match..
youll probably save money with some deal or package u can get from buying everything at once... and if u buy a package from a store.. its less likely things will stuff up..ie. the match should be spot on.

cheers,
steve

[moaner]

that behringer PA setup looked fairly nice. you might want to upgrade one of the mics for your main vocalist.

[aussiegnr]

heheh oooops.. just checked out that package u were gonna buy.. i infact have that Behringer Powered Mixer.. its great..
As for the speakers in this setup..well i have speakers currently at the same specifications, ie. 200w rms at 8ohms and around 96db sensitivity.
For me..not powerful enough.. recently did my first ever gig at the school's gym... people told me later that the vocals needed to be higher in volume compared to the guitar and drums... and as it was.. i was pretty much using most of the amps power..
hence.. im gonna replace my 200w rms @ 8ohm speakers with 2 x 400w rms speakers, both of which are @ 4 ohms.. hence being able to use more of the amps capibilities.
Also, these new 400w rms speakers i have an efficiency/sensitivity of about 101db.. which when compared to the 8ohm speakers works out to be about 2 db increase in efficiency ( my 8ohm speakers were 96db, and these 4 ohm are 101.. but since they are 4 ohm one has to deduct around 3db.. which means at 8ohms itd be about 98db.. so about 2db better than my 200w 8ohm speakers - this is right aint it chris?? hahah)
. Anyways.. the way i see it.. by doing what im doing.. ill have a considerably more louder system.. ie. be able to crank it up just a bit louder than how it is now..but still have quite a bit extra volume in reserve if i need it...

Hope this helps.
cheers,
steve

[aussiegnr]

Been doing some more research at a local PA shop..hmm..
i think im may just pay alot and get 2 very good powered speakers... seems to me from what ive heard and read that they are the most efficient...
may just keep my powered mixer and use it as a mixer until i find some good quality, ie. high efficiency, unpowered speakers.
A few peeps ive talked to think its just a waste of time for me to get 2x 4ohm speakers at 350w rms+
Thats still an option..but until i find a good pair, ill just get a good pair of powered speakers, cause if they are lets say 350wrms +.. thatll probably be all ill need for a long while anyways.. i heard a very loud powered speaker the other day.. about $1700 for one speaker... forgot the exact brand. but jeez.. if i had 2 of these.. my needs would be pretty well met.. and most importantly in a very small package.. they were about 18kg each.. ie. only 12' instead of the 15's i have. Very clear and good for vocals.. ive heard mackie is a great brand for small speakers eg. 12', with alot of punch.. and great for vocals.. ill do some testing in the next couple of weeks.

btw currently im putting my 2 x 200w @ 8ohm powered amp though 2 x 200w rms speakers, im wondering how much watts my behringer is actually putting through these speakers... the guy at the store reckons the reason its not that loud, is cause of the quality of the amp, ie. behringer.and yes it was quite cheap, but he thinks this cheapness may mean that the amp isnt really pushing that much through..or the speakers i have.. a low effiecency at the varying levels, ie. lows-highs
Another reason im thinking of getting a set of powered speakers, ie. knowing ill get what i pay for.. efficient speakers which do what they say they do.. ;)
or ill get a good power amp..and get a mixer seperate.. and good set of speakers..
my quest to have a very loud (if required), very portable and easy to use styem continues...

cheers,
steve

[Aes820]

Well. I'm incredibly happy with those powered speakers I've got.

They are 300 watts a piece and I think the cost around $900 each.
Their make and model names are the Quest QSA300.
I think Quest also make a 400 watt version of these speakers. With 15" speakers. Which may be worthwhile looking into to.

But, I reckon those speakers you've got already are pretty good.
Why not perhaps look at off loading that Behringer powered mixer and find a more suitable and higher quality poweramp for it (a Crown).

If you get yourself a mixer and a decent poweramp. It would be a pretty good setup. And would be just as transportable as what you've got now.

I don't know if you are keen for this idea or not, just passing a suggestion.

[aussiegnr]

hey chris..thanks for the suggestion.
Im almost definately gonna get rid of those speakers... for the size, they just arnt powerful enough for my needs.
I was seriously thinking of getting the Peak Audio Speakers (ie. 350w -400w rms @ 4ohm impedance apparently at sensitiviy of 101db) until the guy at the store saying that id probaby not be that happy with them... he recons they wouldnt be much louder than the 200w rms 8ohm sensitivity of 96db speakers i currently have... what u think chris??? Just wish i could actually test em.. and hear em before purchasing.. but they have to be sent to the store first.. and i think id have to buy em if i wanted them sent..?? This is the option im thinking of cause i dont wanna waste or sell my powered mixer... well not if i can get a good loud result from it.. If i knew id get a considerable louder system (than what i currently have with my powered mixer and pair of 200wrms 8ohm speakers) from purchasing a pair of 4ohm 300-400rms speakers, id definately go for it..and also purchase a powered speaker or 2 for monitors.. whichd probably be louder than the FOH haha

BTW, the reason im thinking of getting a pair of powered speakers is cause i know they'll be very effiecient and loud and easily portable..Here is an interesting article i found on powered speakers:
http://www.stekaudio.com/`ART300a%20appraisal.pdf
I mean..if i could get a pair of 12' speakers.. theyd be smaller than what i currently have..and im sure louder than the speakers i have, since they are over 300watts..

Btw for a real loud but good system.. whats the cheapest way to go (Id probably spend 2-3,000 at most):

1. Powered mixer (what i currently have) + 2 Foh speakers @ 4ohm + 1 or 2 powered speakers as monitors??

2. Im thinkin itd be cheaper to buy a good Powered amp and a small mixer (since id only need around 4 channels) and good Foh Speakers.

3. A mixer and a couple of POwered speakers... this seems to be a good choice for power in a very small package.. only the flexibility is a problem .. if a monitor is required.

As uve probably already gathered in the last few weeks or should i say months, im still in very indecisive mode.. just doing more research... ill keep pluggin away.. not purchasing anything until im 100%.. who knows.. may get a good deal or something.. also think ill pop into pro audio again with my powered mixer and speakers and hook it up and compare to other speakers..

ciao for now;)
steve

[aussiegnr]

Heres an interesting article i found regarding Wattage of Speakers.
The reason im posting this, is cause its was a mistake i kinda made when buying my speakers and amp, ie. thinking of just the wattage.. and hope it helps others currently shopping around for speakers. Also im bit bored :)

"Wattage Ratings:
Often, consumers are attracted to and impressed by speakers that can handle the largest amount of wattage. However, wattage is just one factor to consider among many. Just because a speaker can handle more wattage does not necessarily mean that it will play louder or sound better.

To find out the real story, one needs to consider the sensitivity specification together with the wattage rating. The sensitivity specification basically states how much sound comes out for a given input (analogous to a miles-per-gallon rating for a car). The sensitivity spec is determined by the manufacturer, and often takes the following form: "x" dB / 1 watt / 1 meter. "x" is the sound level in dB, and may be anywhere from about 85 to 105 dB, depending upon the speaker model (a spec in the low to mid 90s is common). The spec is determined (at the vendor's factory) by driving the speaker with 1 watt of electrical energy and measuring the acoustic output at a distance of one meter (using a calibrated microphone). There are a number of variations in measurement procedures due to the variety of speaker models, too many details to cover at this time.

So, what does this all mean? Consider two speakers, Model A and Model B. Model A has a wattage rating of 200 watts and a sensitivity rating of 101dB/W/M. Model B has a wattage rating of 600 watts and has a sensitivity rating of 97 dB/W/M. The maximum output from Model A (with 200 W input) is 124 dB; the maximum output of Model B (with 600 W input) is 124.8 dB (most people would not be able to hear a 0.8 dB difference in sound level). So, as can be seen from the numbers, Model A and Model B have nearly identical maximum output, even though Model B can handle three times as much power! (I haven't gone into mathematical details of how I came up with the maximum numbers... a topic for another day). It is interesting to note however... for top end speakers (of the same type), the maximum output of them are all similar. In other words, speakers that handle a lot of power often have lower sensitivity numbers. Speakers with the highest sensitivity numbers typically can't handle as much power. You are not likely to find a speaker than can both handle a ton of power and also have a high sensitivity rating. Amplifier power is relatively costly, so speakers that are more efficient (generate more sound with a smaller input) are generally desired so long as you are satisfied with the sound characteristic.

CONCLUSION: DON"T SELECT A SPEAKER BASED ON WATTAGE RATING ALONE! As we saw in the above example, two speakers that (to the unknowing) might seem much different actually put out nearly the same amount of sound. Model B requires a much more powerful amplifier to get the same maximum output; powerful amplifiers are certainly available but weigh more and cost more!"

The link: http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/spkr.htm
there is so much more cool info here regarding pa speakers, ie. difference between 4ohm and 8ohm speakers, quality difference, and more on sensitivity etc.. hope it helps
cheers,
steve

[devildriver421]

i have a question about that though. if say a 400w speaker had the same decibal rating n all that as a 200w speaker, could you run 2-200w speakers through a 800w mixer, because theyre just as loud as having 2-400w speakers? and also, doesnt the mixer itself have alot to do with how loud the system is?

[devildriver421]

i was actually just looking into what you said, and i found a 500w speaker with 91.5 db rating, and then a 400w speaker with a 95 db rating, and myband is actually getting the 400w speakers. would that be good? It's gonna be for decent sized shows, we're getting a 800w mixer, and then 2 of the 400w speakers.

also, right now we have an 80w system that has 2-50w speakers taht are rated at 94 db. so does that mean that the 800w system wont be any louder really?

[Aes820]

could you run 2-200w speakers through a 800w mixer, because theyre just as loud as having 2-400w speakers? No, because the power from the amp could be too much for the speakers, and may damage them. (depending on the ohm ratings)
i was actually just looking into what you said, and i found a 500w speaker with 91.5 db rating, and then a 400w speaker with a 95 db rating, and myband is actually getting the 400w speakers. would that be good? It's gonna be for decent sized shows, we're getting a 800w mixer, and then 2 of the 400w speakers.

also, right now we have an 80w system that has 2-50w speakers taht are rated at 94 db. so does that mean that the 800w system wont be any louder really?
The 400 watt speakers would obviously be a better choice. Because of their higher efficiency. Just remember for a 3db difference, it is like half (or double the wattage).
So, full power through those 500 watt speakers would be about as loud as 200 watts through the 400 watt speakers.

Just doing a quick estimate. The maximum output of those speakers off the 80 watt amp may be around 112 dB.
The maximum output of those 400 watt speakers off a suitable amp may be around 124 dB.
It'll be more than twice as loud.

But, just rememeber that amps that are rated to output 400 watts per channel, are usually rated to do this while at 4 ohms.
Many speakers are 8 ohms.
And a 400 watt while at 4 ohms rated output being ran through 8 ohms may be cut down to 200 watts.
So, you can either buy a 4 ohm speaker.
Or buy a poweramp that is rated to output 400 watt while at 8 ohms (800 watts while at 4 ohms).

[devildriver421]

wow so wait what if something is like 5 db, and then something is 10 db. it seems like it would be twice as loud, but would it? this is kind of confusing, i mean i get it but its just...wierd hah

the 800w mixer we're getting is 4 ohm and the speakers are 8 ohm. so how would that work? http://www.behringer.com/PMH880S/index.cfm?lang=ENG there it is you can see if im reading wrong or whatever i dont know please

also, i dont think i get the sensitivity thing

[Aes820]

For something to be twice as loud. There'll need to be a difference by about 10dB.
This could be equal to 10x the wattage of one amp to another.
Volume levels increase on a logarithmic scale.

That powerd mixer is rated to pump out 2x400 watts while through 4 ohms.
If you are using 8 ohm speaker it'll only be around 2x200 watts.

If you read through the last few pages of this thread you'll probably notice that aussiegnr has been through this all before. He even got the same powered mixer that you are looking at.
It ended up not being enough for his needs.
But it may or may not be enough for you.
It will certainely be better than the 80 watter you've got at the moment. But I'm not too sure how it'll go with gigs and what not.

Speaker efficieny means how good a speaker is at converting power to sound.
Speakers are rated in XdB/1w/1m.
The higher the value of X, the better. But, speakers with high effiencies are expensive.

[aussiegnr]

wow so wait what if something is like 5 db, and then something is 10 db. it seems like it would be twice as loud, but would it? this is kind of confusing, i mean i get it but its just...wierd hah

the 800w mixer we're getting is 4 ohm and the speakers are 8 ohm. so how would that work? http://www.behringer.com/PMH880S/index.cfm?lang=ENG there it is you can see if im reading wrong or whatever i dont know please

also, i dont think i get the sensitivity thing

Hey i have the exact same mixer.
Ok.. the rating is 2 x 400w @ 4ohms or 2 x 200w @ 8ohms...
Thats what it says in the manual specs, aswell as on the back...

I currently have 2-200w rms Speakers @ 8ohms ... which i use with this mixer... for me not quite loud enough, but it may be good for u.. btw.. the sensitivity of these speakers are about 96db @ 1w/1m...

From what ive read, if u are thinking of getting 8ohm speakers, get something around the 150w rms mark.. as its good to have the amp more powerful for the speakers for great headroom. Basically, by physically having the mains/volume turned all the way up on the amp to match the speaker, u pass distorted signals to the speakers which is bad for the speakers.. this is called clipping.. if this is slightly wrong, correct me chris :)

But basically all u need to know is the amp power should be more than the speaker rms, so that u can get a good volume from the speakers with using only about 1/2 to 3/4 of the amps power... thats what the guy at the PA store told me.. but ive read the same thing here and on other sites.. One site suggests about 200w rms speaker to be powered by a 300-400w amp... for excellent head room..

cause i have 200w rms speakers(8ohms) and a 200w amp(8ohms), it means im never really using all the capability of my speakers rms, since im not gonna crank my amp to clipping levels.. hence i should either get more powerful amp, eg 300-400w rms... or even better:

get 2x 300-350w rms speakers @ 4OHMS... remembering my powered mixer (the same one u have) is capable of handling 2 x 400w @ 4ohms... so that way, id be getting the best use outta my amp... and speakers.
One factor i didnt mention though is the sensitivity rating of the speakers... just as long as they are pretty good, then the 4ohm speakers will be a better choice.

actually while im here.. chris can u please tell me how to calculate the max spl db ill be able to get outta the 2 speakers i have and the ones im about to get, ie:

1. the ones i have and will probably sell: 200w rms @ 8 ohms and sensitivity of 96 db 1w/1m

and

2. the ones im probably gonna get for FOH: 300-350 rms @ 4ohms and sensitivity of 101db 1w/1m.
http://www.musicianswarehouse.com.au/default.aspx?Pg=21&ProductCode=HPS154X

im guessing that max spl means how loud the speakers can get without damage.. am i right??? and im sure its got to do with watts and sensitivity/efficiency of the speakers right??

Also, I do remember u saying that to compare 4ohms with an 8 ohm speaker id have to deduct about 3 db of the sensitivity, ie. (101 - 3 = 98db).

anyways im guessing that the 4ohm speakers will allow me to get the system quite a bit louder..but im wondering how much... and how to work out the max spl id be able to achieve on each, taking in consideration that id be able to reach the RMS of both speakers.. ie. using the full rms capability of each speaker.

Btw, im pretty sure im still set on getting the mackie powered speakers.. if i can.. or the quest one.. they seem very efficient with high sensitivity and high max spl.. also very lightweight. Id use the powered speakers by themselves for jamming, connecting it to my powered mixer's preamped section...

and during gigs, id attach the 2 x 350w 4 ohm speakers, and used the 2 powered mackie ones for reinforcement or monitors. Most likely the powered speakers will be the louder ones, since they are heaps more expensive... so i could experiment how id used each pair of speakers.... maybe 3 FOH, and 1 for Monitors.. thatd be nice :)

So i guess im selling my 200w rms 8 ohm speakers then hahah..
funny thing was.. i saw a great buy for a Powered AMp on ebay.. it was a Brand New QA 1000 AMPLIFIER .. producing 350w rms at 8ohm.. almost half price.. these seem pretty good..ud know chris
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7326760501&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

If i got this.. i would have kept my speakers, and sold my powered mixer.. and just bought a normal unpowered mixer..
btw.. how much do decent un powered mixers cost.. lets say with about 4-6 channels, since thats all id ever need???

jeez.. a short message i was gonna write.... turned out to be another biggen ahahah well hope some of it helps.. sorry for all the questions... i think im in curious mode tnight...
i guess i have to be.. ive promised my self.. no more jamming or giggin until i get my PA sorted out hahaha soon i hope :)

cheers,
steve

[devildriver421]

alright thanks a lot you guys are great hah. well im having some trouble finding any 400w speakers, that are 400w at 4 ohms. anybody got any ideas for anything under $200? thanks

[moaner]

400w speakers for what eqwuates to about £120? Good luck mate... you will probably have to go used.

[devildriver421]

what if i got this mixer here and then got a mixer. its 2x700 though so i couldnt run 400w speakers though could i? here (http://www.behringer.com/EP1500/index.cfm?lang=ENG)

and by the way, i know its a behringer which have a lower reputation, but we dont need the best quality amp here, our budget is pretty low.

EDIT: in the specs, output power, both driver, it says 4 ohms per channel 400w. so would that be good? i think it meant 2x700w at 2 ohms. and in another spot, it says 450w at 4 ohms, but the kHz is different, i dont know what that is though. would running a 450w per channel through 400w speakers be ok?

EDIT again: i found a different mixer, behringer, but the bigger model, and 450 per channel, would that be ok to run through the 400w speakers? i just wont turn it up all the way

[devildriver421]

400w speakers for what eqwuates to about £120? Good luck mate... you will probably have to go used.

we acutlaly found some for $140 each, peaveys too. but theyre 400w at 8 ohm.

[moaner]

$140x2 = $280 > $200

[devildriver421]

sorry i meant less than 200 each hah im not stupid enough to think i could get any decent speaker for less than 100

[GermanGuy4]

Hey, i just recently started a band, and we need a PA system and all that. I've read through a lot of stuff but im extremely confused... If there isnt already a thread for it (I tried searching), would one of you guys who understand all this stuff make a thread or lesson or something that explains this, at least the basic fundamentals?

It would be greatly appreciated

[devildriver421]

alright i found the whole system we're gonna get, can someone just make sure itll all work out good, and do you think itd be loud enough for shows?
power amp (http://www.behringer.com/EP2500/index.cfm?lang=ENG)
speakers (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=speakers/search/detail/base_pid/601374/) mixer (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/631224/)

[isojoe420]

Hey, i just recently started a band, and we need a PA system and all that. I've read through a lot of stuff but im extremely confused... If there isnt already a thread for it (I tried searching), would one of you guys who understand all this stuff make a thread or lesson or something that explains this, at least the basic fundamentals?

It would be greatly appreciated

This site (http://members.cox.net/pasystem1/) has a lot of good info.

[airborne50caliber]

"The Phonic SEM 712 2-way Stage Speakers are packed with power handling abilities of up to 300 Watts on Program, 150 Watts on RMS. The SEM 712 features a 12" heavy duty woofer and piezo tweeter"

http://www.bormuzik.com.tr/images/phonic/SEM710s--20000.jpg

Sorry about the n00bness but I know nothing about PA systems and live sound. I have the commission to buy stuff with my friends money, as he's setting up a gig place in his basement for the heavy bands in our area.

If we buy two of these and use them as PA speakers along with a poweramp and conventional mixer, I understand that they will deliver 300 watts each? And what's RMS, how come it halfs the wattage?

If I buy two of these does it mean that my power amp needs 300 or 600 watts of possible power to make full use of them when using them in stereo?

[moaner]

RMS is the rated wattage (for example, a 100wRMS speaker would be fine with a poweramp 150wRMS or less). The 300w refers to the peak value (so a 150w amp would probably peak at 300w, dig?)

[Aes820]

Bumped.

[airborne50caliber]

Thanks Aes, I needed that :)

[aussiegnr]

alright i found the whole system we're gonna get, can someone just make sure itll all work out good, and do you think itd be loud enough for shows?
power amp (http://www.behringer.com/EP2500/index.cfm?lang=ENG)
speakers (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/s=speakers/search/detail/base_pid/601374/) mixer (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_pid/631224/)

Hey dude,
ive been doin some research oon that power amp u got.. american and australian sites... also got recommended to a guy at venuemusic.com.au..and asked him... and he told me, as did other us sites and reviews, is that this behringer 2500 power amp is is one of the best amps u can get for that price.. in terms of power (400w - 500w rms @ 8ohm) and in terms of reliability.. apparently very well made with great components but at a cheap price. and infact im pretty sure im gonna get one... ive had enough of goin for the ultra cheap route.. i want a system thats reliable and good quality (not the best,.. but good quality none the less ) and to do that im gonna spend quite a bit. Ill sell my crappy system i have now.. cost me about $1000 Aust all up...

ATM im pretty clear on what components im gonna get or choose from(in Aust dollars at cheapest price ive found including delivery)
1.Power amp: Behringer 2500 = $637
2.Passive speakers: Mackie c300 12" (300w rms at 8 Ohm)=$800 each
or
QUEST QS350 Passive 12" (350w rms @ 8ohm)=$640.00 each
3.Active speakers: Quest QSA300 12" = $840
4.Mixer.. thats the one im researching now... ?????

I could get the following ABCD

A:
I could get the Behringer power amp ($630).. some good passive speakers.. im thinking a pair of Mackie c300 12"(total about $1600 for the pair)... and possibly one Quest QSA300 ($840) for moitor or just rehearsals and all id then need is a mixer.. which is the thing im researching now.. i have no clue as what to get..but ive heard its all bout how many channel one wants..also very good idea to have an xlr output to connect to the active speakers??? im still not clear on that..thisd cost round the $3070 mark all up + a decent mixer (im thinkin extra 200-300).. the key here i want quality mixer without that many channels.

B:
Or the same as above but with the Quest Passive speakers, ie. Behringer power amp ($630) + pair of QUEST QS350 ($1280) for FOH + Quest QSA300 ($840) for monitor = $2750 all up plus a decent mixer as above. Bit cheaper than above.. but i guess its basically up to the difference between those mackies and quest passive speakers.. anyone know much about these speakers... ill do bit more research

With both A and B option.. great thing is that the power amp is quite a bit more powerful than the passive speakers :)

C:
Or ill just stick with 2 or 3 Quest QSA300 Active speakers ($1680 for the pair and ... $2520) + a mixer. All i know is the biggest problem with this idea is finding a mixer which allows for 3 active speakers to be used.. ie 2 as FOH and 1 as monitor, and the number of extention chords id have to use power output. Btw.. having 3 active speakers in a single extention chord(4 outputs lets say)..would this or could this lead to any short circuiting..or should i use seperate outputs..if there are enough in the room??

Well they are my 3 choices at the moment.. soon enough.. my decision will come.
Main questions here:
1. Anyone know if the Passive Mackie c300 12" (300rms) are much better than the cheaper Passive QUEST QS350 12" (350rms)??? Mackies are supposed to be better... sound quality wise.. plus says something bout excellent mids and highs, as in studio monitors and sound distribution...
Btw.. main use for these are for vocals.. and from some PA advice 12" boxes offer great sound for vocals.

2.What kind of mixer do u guys suggest i get.. dont need heaps of channels.. but more into the xlr to active speaker (which ive heard is for better sound and less noice).. um.. also think its a good idea to get mixer with built in effects... infact i think this is very important.. for reverb etc.
also i guess i need some stero inputs for cd player etc..and recording out to pc


3. Stupid question im sure..but i cant find a mixer with and equaliser built in.. to prevent feedback etc... id love to find mixer like a powered mixer... but without the power.. ie.. power amp..+ a mixer with built in effects and equaliser for ease of use.

4. Finally in regards to mixers.. what am i really looking for.. does price really mean better sound.. or is sound more associated with the speakers.. ie. does amp and mixer have much to do with overal sound running through speakers..

thats it.. no more questions... ive had enough an im sure u guys have to... hahaha
All i know.. is Itll all cost quite a bit..but hey.. ive had enough of doing all this research and stuff.. once i get a system.. i dont wanna have to think and waste my time on it anymore, and just get on with jamming n singing lessons and not worry bout the instruments :)

cheers, steve

[aussiegnr]

Ok... now that im sorta getting what i want.. ie. im getting a poweramp, passive speakers for foh, and most likely an active for monitor.. all i now need is to look for a decent mixer...

Anyone know of any mixer that has everything i need.. ie the inputs (dont need that many channels), xlr outputs (apparently better sound) for active speakers and connection to amp.... + the 7band equaliser to help with feedback of monitors.
basically what i want is a powered mixer without the amp.. since amps on powered mixers arent nearly as powerful enough... hence im getting a powered amp seperately.. but also want a mixer.. but with the equaliser included.

heres the only one ive found so far:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23785&item=7330939995&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V#ebayphotohosting

ie. the Behringer UB1222FX-PRO

Id like something like this.. but i dont need that many channel inputs.. id prefer something much smaller, bout 4-6 inputs, enough outputs for poweramp and xlr output for active speaker/s with the 7 band equaliser included... thatd be perfect...

Has anyone got any ideas ... or links to sites describing what to look for in mixers?? some say low noise etc.. whats the go with that.. i though all were low noise hhaha.. well id be pissed if i heard a hum though the speakers an it was the mixer's or amps fault..... and all the mention bout no. of bus is confusing me..

well off to do some research.. please any help would be much appreciated.
cheers,
steve

[Aes820]

Steve, What's wrong with those passive speaker you've got now? I reckon they are pretty good. Or wont they be able to handle enough power for your needs?

You don't necessarily need a seperate XLR output for the active monitors.
It's is advantage of having the XLRs for balanced use. But it is not essential.
You can easilly get away with using 1/4" inch plugs to XLR cables to connect up the powered monitors with.

To connect up the monitors; You'd generally switch the Aux1 sends on your mixer to 'pre-fader' and run the monitors off the Aux1 outputs. In the form of a 1/4" socket.
This way you can use the Aux1 output level control knob to control the loudness of the monitors independantly form the FOH mix, which is done with the main sliders.

That Mixer you linked to in your second post looks pretty much ideal for your needs.
And I think you'd be very hardpressed to find something with fewer inputs but still with the seperate 7 band graphic EQ.
The Mixer I have got is one level down from that one you linked to. It has four XLR inputs, but no 7 band graphic EQ. Otherwise it is somewhat similar.

[aussiegnr]

cool thanks for that chris.
well basically id like the 7 band equaliser in the one package with the mixer.. so all i need is the mixer and amp... not mixer, amp and equaliser..

regarding the passive speakers i have now.. well they are 200w rms.. and the amp im getting is the behringer 2500 which is about 400-500w rms @ 8 ohms..
hence id rather get something round the 300-350w rms speaker range..but a decent quality one aswell.. the quest qs350 or ev100's look good.. and have great sensitivity.. been getting good advice on those.. and the mackie's c300 are supposedly good aswell.. but bit more expensive... but yeah.. im goin for quality..and so far.. look like ill get the 2 x quest qs350 for FOH plus the 1 x Quest qsa300(same as yours ) for monitor... and the amp and mixer.. perfect package i think :)

just looking for the best prices atm..

thanks again..
talk soon..
cheers,
steve

[kristianwilliams]

Hi, I've done my best to read through this thread, but my minds turned to mush, i'm sorry. I'm also sorry I'm the drummer, so I dont know anything about the PA side either.but I guess thats why you guys are here ;)

OK, the lead singer of my band has just got hold of this behringer amp

http://www.behringer.com/PMH3000/index.cfm?lang=ENG

I'm just wondering what Specs we need to be looking at for speakers? we run monitors of a seperate amp, so thats not an issue. Any help would be apreciated thank you :thumb:

p.s. we also still have

Studio Powerhouse 300 Series amp/mixer, which is 300W per side at 4ohms, or 160w at 8ohms.

and an un-named preamp which is stated as only having 100watts

hope this helps you, help me :thumb:

[moaner]

400w RMS a side (thats probably 700W peak a side)

I'm guessing you're running the whole abd through this. You'd certaintly want at least 15" drivers, and maybe 2 speakers each side- bass bins and mid/highs (eg an 18" speaker cab and a 12" cab with horns and tweeter on each side)

It's not adviseable to skimp on speaker quality where youy can help it.

[kristianwilliams]

we're not running the entire band through this, it's just vocals, but the old speakers we're currently using for practice have no top end, and are very quiet. :S

would you recomend just the 400w RMS then? or would we need the bins as well?

[moaner]

we're not running the entire band through this, it's just vocals, but the old speakers we're currently using for practice have no top end, and are very quiet. :S

would you recomend just the 400w RMS then? or would we need the bins as well?

if you're only running vocals through it, bass bins wouldn't be neccessary.

what kind of guitar amps are you running to keep up with a 400w PA? How on earth do you hear the drums?

I have a feeling your singer might've gone a bit OTT on the wattage.

[kristianwilliams]

thats the thing, none of the stuff is that loud. at all. guitars are only on 100watt amps (not sure what level there on) just that we cant hear the vocals that loud. could it be the mic as well? or just the setup we have is wrong??

we use the Studio 300w to run the monitors off. so we're just using the behringer to run the speakers.

[moaner]

ah, you'll be fine. Its good to have a large pa there forwhen you do need more channels and more wattage.

[Aes820]

kristianwilliams: To make the most out of that powered mixer you'd want to get a hold of a pair of 4 ohm speakers rated at at least 400 watts each.

Or you could get two pairs of 8 ohm speakers rated at at least 200 watts each and run them in parralleld pairs.

Bare in mind the speaker efficiency rating of the speakers you buy. The higher their efficiency rating then the louder they will be. Anything over about 95dB is good. But the more the better.

And whatever speakers you end up getting. Look into getting some stands as well. Get the speakers up to about head height. They'll sound a lot louder if they are pointing at the audience's ears as what they would if they are pointing at the audience's ankles.

[kristianwilliams]

thank you very much for your help. Would these be a good purchase?

http://www.peavey-eu.com/products/messenger/pro15.cfm

or should we go for something with bigger RMS?

[Aes820]

Those look pretty good.
May you may be overpowering them a little too much.
Something that can handle more RMS would be better.
Say, 350 watts RMS absolute minimum.

I'm just afraid of suggestign you get something that you later damage by overpowering them, you best be safe than sorry

EDIT: Actually, on second thought. Those ones you linked to are 1000watts peak. Which is pretty high. More than double the RMS of your powered mixer. Um, I think they should so the job.
And 500 watts program, which basically means it can handle an average of 500 watts while amplifying general 'music'. They might very well be suitable.

It may be advisable to talk to someone in a music store and confirm this before handing over your money. But I reckon they could be pretty good.

[kristianwilliams]

thank you for all your help. I've learned more in the last day reading this thread, then I have ever trolling through books ;)

i've told the lead singer about what I've learned (needing a 4ohms 400rms with a 95db+) and that the ones I've suggested may be ok (4ohms, 250rms but with a 500program and 1000 peak, with 98db)

so we're going to have a look at them today. thanks guys :D

[Aes820]

Just a quick little fact for you.
When you want to compare the efficiency of a 4 ohm cabinet to an 8 ohm cabinet. Then you'll need to subtract 3dB from that of the 4 ohm cabinet to make it a fair compaison.

So, a 98dB 4 ohm cabinet would be comparable to a 95dB 8 ohm cabinet.
But still, anything over 95dB is fine.

[kristianwilliams]

quick question, sorry to bug you guys again, but we've stumbled upon another set of speakers that the store said would be better suited, but I'm not too sure, wonderd if you could help


amp/mixer = 2X400w at 4ohms.

option a) 200w RMS 400W con, and 800w max. 8ohms. 96db
option b) 250w RMS 500W con, and 1000w Max, 4ohms 98db

both are similerly priced, but the guy seemed admient at option "a" being better and louder and clearer for us.

[Aes820]

The amp is rated to pump out 400 watts per channel while at 4 ohms. Running 8 ohm speakers off it will reduce this power output. To the equivalent of maybe 2 dB or so.

Not knowing anything else about the speakers other than what you've said just now. They look like a pretty even trade off.

If i were in your position (and could afford it) I would opt in buying two pairs of the 8 ohm speakers. You can connect them in parrallel off each channel of your amp when you need the full power output of your amp, like during gigs. And just run a single pair of the 8 ohmers for practising.

[kristianwilliams]

cheers aes820. We can only afford to buy one pair at the moment, I dont think we'll need to use the full 400w aside for gigs, as presently most gigs booked are for pubs/small clubs which is why they suggested the 200rms at 8ohms, as they said we'd be less likely to blow them if we did have to crank them up. (keeping in mind I'm a drummer and thus, not that bright with sound equipment at the moment) but would'nt 200rms be very very loud? the Guitarists amp is only on low (it's a 100watt) and it's very very loud (louder then my druming). or are vocals and guitar amps different as in sound levels??

[Aes820]

You may often hear that a good standard for estimating how much power you'll need. Is 10 watts per person. Then add an extra 0 on the end if the gig is outdoors.

10 wats per person is fairly big! But the idea is to have atleast more power than you'll ever need so you don't have to crank it up.
And I guess that is an estimate if you are intending to run all instruments through the PA.

If you are just going to be running vocals through it. I think 6 watts per person should probably do.

I think a 2x400 rig may be suitable for pub gigs.
a 2x200 may be pushing it, but if you are only using it for vocals then it might be alright.

The loudness of a guitar amp depends on a lot more than just the number of watts it has got. It also depends on how the guitarists tune, how they EQ, and what speakers they are running through.

My guitar amp is 30 watts. through a 4x12. And it is insanely loud!
http://www.dropbear.net/files/Amps.jpg
It can very easilly drown out my 2x300 watt Biamped PA speakers.

But. What you'll have to do while sound checking is get someone with a good set of ears out into the audience and tell you what levels you all need to be at.
It's alright if you all have to turn down a bit. There's no need for you all the play as loud as possible. Just get a good mix together and you'll sound fine.
The audience dont like it if they can't hear themselves think either.

[isojoe420]

My guitar amp is 30 watts. through a 4x12. And it is insanely loud!It can very easilly drown out my 2x300 watt Biamped PA speakers.
WOW! :amaze: That's insane.

I have a 2x100 watt system that does a great job for small gigs with just vocals and guitar through it. But because I run a few drum mics and the bass through it, I added a 500 watt powered sub. That helps out the situation.

[hantge30]

hey guys..um first im wondering if i have a crappy little 6 channel powered mixer...could i buy a non powered mixer and not buy a power amp and just run the non powered- threwthe powered- would that work...second what are some good cheap monitors...? third... is it better to mic guitar/bass amps or use the amps-line out thing to the mixer...thanks guys!

[Aes820]

First question. Yes you can, but watch your levels.
Second Question. Check Peavey or Behringer

Third. Definately mic the guitar amp.
But because of the low frequencies with the bass, micing the amp doesn't usually sound too good. (unless you use really high quality and expensive mics).
You could use a DI box. Which would be the best option.
Or you could run from the amps line out (or headphone out) if it has one.

[Distant Echoes]

Aes, Ive noticed youve been helping alot of people in this thread, and since Im recently been investing in a PA system, as well as some other equipment, Could you give me a quick briefing on what ohms and phantom power is? From what i know already, Phantom Power is absolutely a must for most systems, but I dont know how many ohms make a good system and bad...especially in my low price range.

And a few 100 post back, You suggested this system "C100 Portable PA System 100W". I dont know how outdated that specific post was, but would you still recommend for a budget? or is there something else i can get for a few extra bucks thatll bring me a longer way?

[Aes820]

Ohms are a measure of resistance. Or in the case of an audio signal, it is impedence.
It basically describes how much the signal coming out of your amp is going to be restricted by the speaker.
Like a flood gate in a river controlling water flow. With a large amount of resistance the current flow from your amp wil be impeded or resticted to a lesser amount.
A large amount of ohms (16) will slow down the current flow from your amp more so than a small amount of ohms (2).

So. An amp might be rated to pump out 200 watts while through 4 ohms. This 200 watts will be dependant on the rate of current flow out of the amp. So if you run it through more than 4 ohms, then this power output may decrease (this is knowns as running an amp cool) And if you run it through less than 4 ohms this power output may increase (this is knowns as running the amp hot).

It is fine to run an amp cool. You'll loose a bit of output power but there is no risk of damage.
Running an amp hot can cause problems. You can have an increase in power output. But because of the extra heat created you could burn out components within your amp.


Phantom power is definately not essential. Phantom power is for use with devices which need to draw a power source from somewhere.
Condensor microphones, or DI boxes require a power source to run. This can often be achieved by a 9 volt battery but can also be achieved through the use of phantom power.
With phantom power, a voltage is sent down a seperate wire within the XLR cable from the mixer. This voltage is used by the condensor microphones or DI boxes in order to operate.
If you are not using condensor microphones or anything that requires phantom powering then there is no need to have it. Although most mid to higher end products do have this facility as an option. But if it is not needed, then just leave it off.

And if you do use it then make sure you use properly balanced XLR cables.

The c100 would do if you are on a tight budget. Good for practising and jamming in a garage or community hall or somewhere of that size.
You wouldn't bother trying to gig with it. It may not be enough. But possibly alright for just a backyard sized gig.

[devildriver421]

aes, how do you know all this? anything anybody asks, and you know it. hah, anyway, about the running an amp cool thing, you said its not a problem, so if i had an amp rated for say 8 ohms, could i run it at 16 and it would be fine? im just wondering so i know, im not gonna be doing this, more out of curiosity