Official Jazz Theory Thread

[spastic]

Here it is, folks: The OFFICIAL Jazz theory thread :D

This thread is for anything related to jazz theory, but DON'T post it elsewhere. Any questions you have go in here, and if you just want to add some info on it, it also goes in here. Have fun. . .

[spastic]

To start things off: Jazz Scales. Everyone is always asking about them, so I compiled everything most of you will ever need (and then some).

JAZZ THEORY

(How to read: Number refers to what degree of the scale is played, for instance starting on C major:
1 – C
b2 – Db/C#
2 – D
#2/b3 – Eb/D#
3 – E
4 – F
#4/b5 – Gb/F#
5 – G
b6/#5 – Ab/G#
6 – A
#6/b7 – Bb/A#
7 – B
8 – C one octave up
b9 – Db/C# one octave up
etc...)


Intervals:

(NOTE: Play both notes at the same time)

Unison – 1 and 1
Minor 2nd – 1 and b2
Major 2nd – 1 and 2
Minor 3rd – 1 and b3
Major 3rd – 1 and 3
Perfect 4th – 1 and 4
Diminished 5th – 1 and b5
Perfect 5th – 1 and 5
Minor 6th – 1 and b6
Major 6 – 1 and 6
Minor 7th – 1 and b7
Major 7th – 1 and 7
Octave – 1 and 8
Minor 9th – 1 and b9 9same as b2 an octave up)
Major 9th – 1 and 9
(Etc…)


All the different modes of the major scale:

Ionian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7


Harmonized Major Scale:
1: Maj7
2: Min7
3: Min7
4: Maj7
5: 7 (Dominant)
6: Min7
7: Min7 b5


Melodic Minor and its modes:

Melodic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Lydian b7 (4th degree): 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
Altered (7th degree): 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7


Harmonized Melodic Minor Scale:
NOTE: I only list the tensions when they deviate from the norm.

1: Min(Maj7)
2: Min7
3: Maj7#5
4: 7 9 #11 (Dominant)
5: 7 9 b13 (Dominant)
6: Min7 b5
7: Min7 b5


Diminished: 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 7 OR 1 b2 3 b4 b5 b6 b7
Whole Tone: 1 2 b4 b6 b7


And all the pentatonic scales, the blues scale, and the bebop scales:

Pentatonic Minor: 1 b3 4 5 b7
Pentatonic Minor 6: 1 b3 4 5 6
Pentatonic Dominant: 1 2 3 5 b7
Pentatonic Half Diminished: 1 b3 4 b5 b7
Pentatonic Major b6: 1 2 3 5 b6
Blues: 1 2 b3 4 b5 5 b7 7
Bebop Major: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7
Bebop Minor: 1 2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 b7
Bebop Dominant: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7
Bebop Dominant b9 b13: 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 7



Contact me on AIM (FreeMusicNo1) if you have questions. I've helped a lot of people from mx with this, so feel free to contact me. And remember, if you think you have something to add (not just on scales), add it here!

[Binky's Dream]

I'm also available for help.
AIM: IgnorantSubhuman

Oh, Walker, do you think it would be possible to get an official recommendations thread along with rules? I'd talk to the mods but I'm not in their best graces currently. Heh.

I'm just gonna play it low for a while. :thumb:

[ikikdababy]

You can still talk to me. I don't not like you.

[Binky's Dream]

Oh, ok, cool.

It'd be great if we could get an official recommendations thread, along with a thread that basicially says "Don't post stuff about RHCP or Incubus."

[ikikdababy]

You make it and I'll stick it. You guys can be my deputies. Basically, I'm willing to let you do all the work of a mod except the actual pressing of the buttons until mx decides to get one of you guys modded.

[spastic]

Thanks for stickying those, Ikik :thumb:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Back to theory:


I have another 'lesson' planned out, but first I need to explain some chord theory. For playing jazz, this is ESSENTIAL, especially for guitarists because most of the time you will be plaing chords.

Chords are constructed by "stacking" thirds, or adding thirds. (Remember that a 3rd is a 1 and b3 or 1 and 3 from my interval lesson) The simplest type of chord is a triad: the root, the 3rd, and the 5th. And, as you probably know, the 3rd is what creates a Major or Minor sound (without a 3rd the chord is called 'sustain,' or sus). So, to play a Major triad, you play the root (1), 3, and 5. A C Major triad is C E G.

If you add a third onto that chord, you create a "7 chord." Now, your chord is composed of the root (1), 3rd, 5th, and 7th. A C Major 7 chord is C E G B.

Now, adding thirds onto the 7th starts to create the tension tones: the 9th, 11th, and 13th. As you probably see, these are just the tones that would be added when you "stack" even more thirds. So, a C Major 13 chord would consist of all the tones in the major scale: C E G B D F A.


NOTE: When playing minor chords, remember that all the tensions will be based off the Aeolian scale, unless indicated otherwise. So, a Minor 13 chord would be composed of the root (1), b3, 5, b7, 9, 11, b13.


Sometimes chords will list alterations in its usual tensions, and it is very important to pay attention to these. For instance, sometimes you will see a C b9 b13. This means that the normal tones (1, 3, 5, 7) willbe dominant, but the tensions will be b9, 11, b13. So, a C b9 b13 will be played like C E G Bb Db F Ab.






In my next lesson I will explain how to use these tensions to improvise with. Also, this lesson was basically laying down a lot of info down at once, so i doub tsomeone that has never learned any of this will be able to pick it all up. For specific questions, AIM me: FreeMusicNo1 or ask it in this thread. And, while I got the main points, I left some stuff out that would clear up confusion, so anyone that knows his stuff is free to add on to it.

[Prowler01]

Learning theory on a piano makes it a lot clearer to many people. Also if someone posts some examples of how this comes into play. Eventually (maybe a week or two) I'll post some things with different 7th chords that helped me learn this stuff on guitar. I'm working a lot this upcoming week and I'm lazy so thats why I can't do it right away...

[Don Mega]

If someone could clear something up for me... Is there a difference between jazz and funk? If there is, what is it? Thanks.

[Kovax]

I like it. I will be playing around with that tonight!!!

[spastic]

To Don Mega: Do you mean the theory behind jazz and funk? Or just the style?

[spastic]

For my next lesson: Improvisation.


One of the biggest questions that i get when people are asking me with theory is application of what I tell them. Sure, you know all those scales I listed, but that doesn't do you any good if you don't know how to utilize them.


When playing jazz, much of the time you will be playing over written out chord progressions. One of the most effective ways to improv over these chords is to play the scale that corresponds to each chord.


The first step is to figure out what the root note is. This is very simple: it is the note listed on the chord chart. For instance, a C13's root note is C. Simple.


As you know, a chord is Major if it contains a natural 3rd tone, and minor if it contains a b3 tone. This is the next step in deciding which scale to use for improvisation. If the chord is major, don't use a minor scale over that chord (a scale with a b3), use a major scale (a scale with a natural 3).


Next, identify its "normal" tones (the tones not used as tensions). Usually these will be the 5 and 7 tones, although a 6 tone sometimes replaces the 7th tone. Only use scales that contain the same same confiurations as these tones. After the root, 3rd, and other "normal" (does anyone know the correct erminology for these notes? I'm drawing a blank...) tones, you will have limited your selection of scales down.


EXAMPLES:

If you are playing over a (blank), you could use a (blank scale) [NOTE: I am not going to list every scale that you could use, only one example]:

C Maj7 - C Ionian

Because C Maj7 contains these tones: Root (1), 3, 5, 7. The Ionian scale contains 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

E Min7 - E Dorian

Because E Min7 contains these tones: Root (1), b3, 5, b7. The Dorian scale contains 1, 2, b3, 4, b5, 6, b7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

A Min7 b5 - A Locrian

Because A Min7 b5 contains these tones: Root (1), b3, b5, b7. The Locrian scale contains 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

G Min (Maj7) - G Melodic Minor

Because G Min (Maj7) contains these tones: Root (1), b3, 5, 7. The Melodic Minor scale contains 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord. Notice that this scale is not in the Major scale. Be aware that not all the scales you will use will come from the Major scale.



Now, the next step in deciding which scale to use is figuring out the extended tones of the chords. Usually (or always? I'm not sure...) the tensions will be some type of 9, 11, or 13 tone(s). This step is almost the same as the last, except that you are figuring out the extended tones instead of "normal" tones. Simply find these tones, combine these tones with the ones you already know how to find, and find what scales have these same tones.

EXAMPLES:

If you are playing over a (blank), you could use a (blank scale) [NOTE: I am not going to list every scale that you could use, only one example]:

C Min11 - C Aeolian

Because C Min11 contains these tones: Root (1), 2 (9), b3, 4 (11), 5, b7. The Aeolian scale contains 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

D13 - D Mixolyidian

Because D13 contains these tones: Root (1), 2 (9), 3, 4 (11), 5, 6 (13), b7. The Mixolydian scale contains 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.



That is one of the most effective ways to solo, and it will always sound good. The only problem is that it can sound very boring if it isn't done well. Play around with it to find what you like, and what you don't.


AIM: FreeMusicNo1 or post them here for questions.

[Binky's Dream]

Here's something I got off of another site and edited and fixed up. My complete lesson wouldn't work because I couldn't attach the PDF files of the written music for some reason. :confused:


Well, anyways, here's basicially what my lesson was.


:thumb:
--------------------------------------------------


Functional chord melody is a term I use for the ability to make up arrangements on the fly, to use all of the musical information you know and blend it together into an expressive and cohesive musical statement. This technique is most commonly used in solo, duo with bass, and trio with bass and drum settings.


Melody is the MOST important thing, chords should NEVER interfere with the phrasing and flow
Just like your solos, the theme and the texture of the statement should develop
While chord melody by definition sounds as if chords and lines are always simultaneous, it is actually a variety of techniques:

In its simplest fashion, functional chord melody is a mixture of melody, harmonized melody and chordal response to melody (which might be called comping or call and response).

In order to really play a functional chord melody you must be able to swing the tune in single line fashion. This is mandatory. If you cannot do this, it should be practiced first! Once you are comfortable with the melody and have an awareness of the basic harmony, you are ready to begin.

There are simple things you can do with the basic chords that create motion or the appearance of motion and assist in the rhythmic flow or swing of the performance in their basic forms:

Diatonic: Playing scalic ideas or harmonized voicings (often referred to as modes)
Inner voice movement: Moving tones (commonly called voice leading) inside a voicing is a great way to create movement and direction without a bunch of new harmonic data being thrust on the tune or listener. First try the 5th. Move it chromatically up to the 6th and back. I'm sure you'll recognize having heard this in many people's playing. If it is a dominant 7th chord, go up to that tone from the 5th and back down (maybe to the flatted 5th?). The major 7? +11? Minor major 7? etc. With a dominant 7th chord, another effective movement in use is the b9 to #9. You probably play it in blocks all of the time.
Parallel: Chord voicings always work when moved in parallel fashion and are very easy on the guitar! Smooth resolution is affected if all of the notes resolve in a uniform way. While chromatic resolution is the smoothest and easiest, try other sequential groupings.
Harmonic: This is a large group, one that consists of substitutions, chromatic (parallel and other) and superimposed progressions. For "function" it is important that you NEVER interrupt the flow or try to stuff so much in that you arrest the melodic and rhythmic flow. Harmony is color and should be your last consideration.


Examples:
An Aminor chord: The first harmonic thing would be to create motion from and back to that chord. The most obvious is Aminor to E7 and back to Aminor. Or A minor to Bb7 to Aminor. In the last case, it contained what is often referred to as the tritone substitution. Regardless of its name, I'm sure you recognize its relativity to the parallel concept with only one different note. It is also contained in the moving voice section as the notes in the chord except the root is the same as the chord it is replacing and its 5th to 6th motion is the same as the b9 and #9 of E7 (the original chord)

You might also create progressions:
Aminor, F#m7b5, E7b9
Aminor, G13, F13, E7
Aminor, Cmaj7, B7#5, Bb13

And that's before you use bass motion (ascending and descending, chromatic, diatonic, whole tone), extend the progression, modulate or any one of a number of techniques you are probably already using in other songs.

With these ideas in mind, and a desire to vary and develop your statement, play the attached chord melody of Days Of Wine & Roses.

How to read the charts
Because there are no bar lines or exact rythmic values to the melody notes, you MUST know the song. As these are all commonly played standards, find at least two versions by some of your favourite artists. This will give you a good idea of the basic melody of the song, as well as ideas for personal interpretation at a later date. (If Miles Davis' band played it, it is probably the most commonly referred to version).

Play the note(s) written and then play the corresponding chord (above). When you see a note with an arrow pointing to a chord diagram, you may play the chord and melody simultaneously or the melody note first. When one or more chords are in succession without a melody tone below, play them as a progression, setting up the next part of the melody.

Chords may be played as blocks (with a full strum), or broken, (in finger style or picked fashion).

[WhatTheHellIsAGuitar?]

Argh... I will never be able to understand this... :(

[Prowler01]

Try the more basic stuff under guitar in the lesson section. I was j/w how old are you WTHIAG? You used to always just post sarcastic comments about things and no one seemed to know anything about you before the jazz forum (at least what I saw)

[Zoroaster]

Spastic:
Theory Guru MX Jazz Chief

I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure.

[HaVIC5]

Proove him inferior, post some of your recordings.

[spastic]

Originally posted by Zoroaster
Spastic:


I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure.



Wow, man. I put "Theory Guru" as a joke, only because I know more theory than a lot of people here, and try to help anyone that asks me. I don't believe I know everything about theory. But I also didn't post everything I know in this thread.

And I'm glad you enjoyed my songs :rolleyes:

[WhatTheHellIsAGuitar?]

Originally posted by Zoroaster
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure.

You're certainly one to talk about pretension. :rolleyes:

[TonyChoyIsGod]

Originally posted by Zoroaster
Spastic:


I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure.
Sorry to burst your bubble































NO ONE ****ING LIKES YOU

[BirdsOfFires]

Originally posted by Zoroaster
Spastic:


I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure.


Wait, no one else gets it.

Zoroaster is either Android or someone pretending to be. It's something from Thus Spake Zarathustra (Neitzche) and from Mesopotamian legend.

It's a wanna-be TSZ. Sad.


To Zoroaster:
Don't be an ***. Seriously, he understands theory damn well for a 14 year old. Sure, his compositions aren't exactly Coltrane level, but don't be an asshole.

TO EVERYONE: Compare grammar structure and word usage to TSZ's posts. Big imposter here.

:thumb:

[Hababi]

Spastic, can you write up a lesson based on the scale implimentation thing you learned while at the Berklee class? I forget what it was, and I forget if I know it or not :o

[manuscriptreplica]

tip -
harmonic minor sounds like arabic
in music class we called it 'hell need a drink' minor

[PDWAB]

Spastic's 14? :eek:

[BirdsOfFires]

Spastic's 14, I'm 15, TonyChoy is 14, LZB is 16.

[spastic]

Originally posted by manuscriptreplica
tip -
harmonic minor sounds like arabic
in music class we called it 'hell need a drink' minor


True, if the scale is played straight through. But in jazz, usually it's used to play a V7 chord that can resolve to a minor 1 chord. The natural 7th allows this.


Also, sorry zerokewl, but the one scale implementation clinic they gave was way out of my league :( None of the students there got it, save 2 or 3 guys that were around 30 :p

[spastic]

Originally posted by BirdsOfFires
Spastic's 14, I'm 15, TonyChoy is 14, LZB is 16.



Yep, the entire jazz crew is pretty young :thumb:.

[Hababi]

Also, sorry zerokewl, but the one scale implementation clinic they gave was way out of my league None of the students there got it, save 2 or 3 guys that were around 30


:lol: Ah, I read through the summary you wrote about it in the berklee thread, I think I read something similar before, if I remember correctly it's about using the lydian dominant scale over a V7 chord...I need to practice improv more :o

[spastic]

Well they did go over that:


Lydian Dominant (1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7) or Lydian b7 is used mainly used with tritone substitution. It works because the #4 doesn't conflict with the 3rd of the dominant chord like the natural 4 does in Mixolydian.



BUT

The lecture they gave was quite a bit more complex. It started out with the seperation of altered extended chords and how to use the extensions to form diminished scales. Then it went on and I got even more :confused:

:thumb:

[Hababi]

:lol:

[brero]

1: Maj7
2: Min7
3: Min7
4: Maj7
5: 7 (Dominant)
6: Min7
7: Min7 b5

Erm, I don't get what you're listing here.

[spastic]

Harmonizing the major scale with 7 chords.

[TonyChoyIsGod]

You're back you jazz mofo :cool:

[BirdsOfFires]

Ohhh! Walker's back!!
Ohhh!
:naughty:

[BirdsOfFires]

That ":naughty:" came straight from the ferret, to you, baby.
Heh.

[Maveryck]

Modal Chord Extensions:

I learnt this technique/idea during my recent school assignment to compose a jazz piece. It's a way of incorporating modal theory into chord extensions to make life easier for the jazz-inexperienced soloist (that's me unfortunately :()



Take the modes of the Natural Minor scale:

A Aeolian - A B C D E F G A
B Locrian - B C D E F G A B
C Ionian - C D E F G A B C
D Dorian - D E F G A B C D
E Phrygian - E F G A B C D E
F Lydian - F G A B C D E F
G Mixolydian - G A B C D E F G

Chords are built using thirds. They are theoretically arranged in the following pattern:

1 3 5 7 9 11 13

Now, re-ordering the modes to fit this pattern:

A Aeolian - A C E G B D F
B Locrian - B D F A C E G
C Ionian - C E G B D F A
D Dorian - D F A C E G B
E Phrygian - E G B D F A C
F Lydian - F A C E G B D
G Mixolydian - G B D F A C E

Those notes spell the following chords, and their extensions:

Am7 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> b13
Bm7b5 ---> b9 ---> 11 ---> b13
Cmaj7 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> 13
Dm7 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> 13
Em7 ---> b9 ---> 11 ---> 13
Fmaj7 ---> 9 ---> #11 ---> 13
G7 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> 13

When building chords out of the notes/intervals displayed above, select the notes that make the chord most distinct as belonging to a mode. For example, with Dm7, include the natural 13, as it identifies it with the Dorian tonality.



Also, try using the modes of the Harmonic Minor scale:

A Harmonic Minor - A B C D E F G# A
B Locrian Natural Sixth - B C D E F G# A B
C Harmonic Major - C D E F G# A B C
D Romanian - D E F G# A B C D
E Ahava Raba - E F G# A B C D E
F Lydian Sharp Second - F G# A B C D E F
G# Ultra-Locrian - G# A B C D E F G#

Re-ordered into chordal order:

A Harmonic Minor - A C E G# B D F
B Locrian Natural Sixth - B D F A C E G#
C Harmonic Major - C E G# B D F A
D Romanian - D F A C E G# B
E Ahava Raba - E G# B D F A C
F Lydian Sharp Second - F A C E G# B D
G# Ultra-Locrian - G# B D F A C E

They spell the following chords:

Am/maj7 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> b13
Bm7b5 ---> b9 ---> 11 ---> 13
Cmaj7+5 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> 13
Dm7 ---> 9 ---> #11 ---> 13
E7 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> b13
Fmaj7 ---> #9 ---> 11 ---> 13
G#dim7 ---> b9 ---> b11 ---> b13



Or the modes of the Melodic Minor scale:

A Melodic Minor - A B C D E F# G# A
B Phrygian Sharp Sixth - B C D E F# G# A B
C Lydian Augmented - C D E F# G# A B C
D Lydian Dominant - D E F# G# A B C D
E Hindu - E F# G# A B C D E
F# Locrian Minor - F# G# A B C D E F#
G# Altered - G# A B C D E F# G#

Re-ordered as per before:

A Melodic Minor - A C E G# B D F#
B Phrygian Sharp Sixth - B D F# A C E G#
C Lydian Augmented - C E G# B D F# A
D Lydian Dominant - D F# A C E G# B
E Hindu - E G# B D F# A C
F# Locrian Minor - F# A C E G# B D
G# Altered - G# B D F# A C E

And we have chords:

Am/maj7 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> 13
Bm7 ---> b9 ---> 11 ---> 13
Cmaj7+5 ---> 9 ---> #11 ---> 13
D7 ---> 9 ---> #11 ---> 13
E7 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> b13
F#m7b5 ---> 9 ---> 11 ---> 13
G#m7b5 ---> b9 ---> b11 ---> b13



The advantage of building chords from these modes and then soloing over them is that you'll always know what modes are good to use over the chords. After all, you built the chords directly from those modes ;). This isn't new information (certainly not to an adequate jazz theorist), but hopefully it'll give some of you a new perspective on how chords relate to scales, and how harmony relates to melody. :)

[spastic]

Originally posted by BirdsOfFires
That ":naughty:" came straight from the ferret, to you, baby.
Heh.



:cool:

[Crotchet]

spastic,

could you please explain the harmonising of the major scale and harmonising of the melodic minor.

thanks.

[spastic]

As you know, a 7th chord is made up of a 1, 3, 5, and 7. They can be altered any way you want, but to be a 7th chord it must have those components. To harmonize a scale means to take each note and construct a chord from that scale (Most people usually use 7th chords for this because it contains all the chord tones and no extensions). So...

To harmonize the Major scale, start off with the notes of the Major scale:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

In C, that would be:

C D E F G A B


So, go through each note and find their relative 3, 5 and 7. (In this list I wrote down the note I harmonize, the name of its 7 chord, the chord tones relative to C, and the chord tones relative to the root in that order) [I also put the extenions in brackets, but ignore those if you are only learning harmonization]


C - C Maj7 - 1 3 5 7 - 1 3 5 7 [9 11 13]

D - D Min7 - 2 4 6 1 - 1 b3 5 b7 [9 11 13]

E - E Min7 - 3 5 7 2 - 1 b3 5 b7 [b9 11 b13]

F - F Maj7 - 4 6 1 3 - 1 3 5 7 [9 #11 13]

G - G Dom7 - 5 7 2 4 - 1 3 5 b7 [9 11 13]

A - A Min7 - 6 1 3 5 - 1 b3 5 b7 [9 11 b13]

B - B Min7b5 - 1 b3 b5 b7 [b9 11 b13]



For Melodic Minor, you do the same thing, except that the notes in the scale are differentm therefore the chords are different.

Melodic Minor:

1 2 b3 4 5 6 7

In C:

C D Eb F G A B

Here is the reharmonization, same pattern repeated as above:

C - C Min (Maj7) - 1 b3 5 7 - 1 b3 5 7 [9 11 13]

D - D Min7 - 2 4 6 1 - 1 b3 5 7 [b9 11 13]

Eb - Eb Maj7 #5 - b3 5 7 2 - 1 3 #5 7 [9 #11 13]

F - F Dom7 - 4 6 1 b3 - 1 3 5 b7 [9 #11 13]

G - G Dom7 - 5 7 2 4 - 1 3 5 b7 [9 11 b13]

A - A Min7b5 - 6 1 b3 5 - 1 b3 b5 b7 [9 11 b13]


The last note of the Melodic Minor scale is a bit different. It can be used as different chords:

B - B Min7b5 - 7 2 4 6 - 1 b3 b5 b7

OR more commonly, although this is slightly more complex:

B - B Dom7 - 1 3 b7 [b9 #9 #11 b13]



If you were just looking to understand harmonizing scales, ignore that last bit. Hope that helps



Questions:

IM: FreeMusicNo1

[TonyChoyIsGod]

Hi, my name's Walker, I'm too tired to talk to Ian yet I will write up a Lesson so I can be hailed throughout the land.

[NeverTheLess]

Hi, I was just wondering if there was any place I could get a beginners version, or something that may have examlpes along with it, as I am a new musician. any of your tips would be appreciated.

[NeverTheLess]

I also would like to compliment you guys on your superb knowledge. especially at such a young age.

[spastic]

Originally posted by TonyChoyIsGod
Hi, my name's Walker, I'm too tired to talk to Ian yet I will write up a Lesson so I can be hailed throughout the land.


;)


That lesson took me half an hour to write, when during the day it would have only taken me 5 minutes. :p

[pyr0r0ck3r]

Circle of 4ths, that is, the next scale begins a 4th above the previous scale:

C -> F -> Bb -> Eb -> Ab -> C#/Db -> F#/Gb -> B/Cb -> E -> A -> D -> G -> C

Circle of 5ths, same as above, only the scale is a 5th above the previous

C -> G -> D -> A -> E -> B/Cb -> F#/Gb -> C#/Db -> Ab -> Eb -> Bb -> F -> C

If you notice, one is just a reversal of the other, therefore, in a Blues in C, the I IV V is

C F G

Basic Major Scale Theory

A Major Scale is not composed of 8 notes as much as it is composed of 2 sets of four, known as tetrachords. For example,

C D E F G A B C, the standard C major scale, is composed of the

C D E F
G A B C

tetrachords. When you look at the steps in betwen the notes, something interesting appears:
W = Whole Step
H = Half Step

C-----D-----E-----F
---W-----W----H---

G-----A-----B-----C
---W-----W----H---

The two tetrachords are tied together by a whole step, so the end result looks like

C-----D-----E-----F-----G-----A-----B-----C
---W-----W----H----W-----W----W----H---

Why is this important? Because it sounds the most "normal" to human ears. But why?

Play a from C to B and hold the B - you should notice that it feels incomplete, that there is something missing. Now play the C, and it will sound right - the B resolves or "pulls" to the C (note that there is a halfstep between C and B)

Now play C and play down to F and hold the F - you should notice the same thing, only backwards. Play the E, and you'll feel the resolution.

So what does this mean? That in the 2nd tetrachord, the resolution is from the 3rd to the 4th, and in the first tetrachord, the resolution is the opposite, from the 4th to the 3rd, or, in more general terms:

When playing, remember your two options for resolution are always (in terms of major scales): 7th (or derivation thereof, ie 15th) to tonic (either octave) or 4th to 3rd (or a derivation thereof, ie 11th).

Chord Symbols, what they mean

(C is root)

(Chord Symbol - Name - Which Notes of the Scale to Play - Scale Mode it belongs to (which degree the scale you start on))

C - C Major Triad - 1, 3, 5 - Ionian (1st degree)

Cmaj7 - C Major 7 - 1, 3, 5, 7 - Ionian (1st degree)

C6 - C Major 6 - 1, 3, 5, 6 - Ionian (1st degree)

C7 - C Dominant 7 - 1 , 3, 5, b7 - Mixolydian (5th degree)

Caug7, C+7 - Augmented 7 - 1, 3, #5, b7 - Phrygian (3rd degree) with a major third and a major 2nd (?)

Cm, Cmin, C- - Minor Triad - 1, b3 , 5 - Aeolian (6th degree)

Cm7, Cmin7, C-7 - Minor 7 - 1, b3, 5, b7 - Dorian (2nd degree)

Cmin6, C-6 - Minor 6 - 1, b3, 5, 6th - Aeolian (6th degree)

Cm7b5, C-7b5 - Minor 7 flat 5 or Half-Diminished - 1, b3, b5, b7 - Locrian (7th degree)

Co7, Cdim7 - Diminished 7 - 1, b3, b5, bb7 (6) - Lydian (4th degree) with a minor third (?)

Csus7 - Suspended 7 - 1, 4 (#3), 5, b7 - Mixolydian (5th degree) with an augmented 3rd (?)

See Previous Posts by Spastic for an explanation of Scale Modes

Dominant 7th Chord

In music, there is the basic idea of tension and release. One note/chord will build tension, then the next note/chord will release it. One of the most basic examples is the progression of the Dominant 7th chord (V7 chord) to the tonic chord (I). Whether arpeggiated or played as a chord, the effect is the same (for best results, play on a piano or guitar, or a similar chorded instrument):

G7
G B D F

resolves to

C
C E G

Theory on why this works:
*This is my theory, so it might not be correct*

The G7 chord contains the 4th of the C chord, so, therefore, when the G7 resolves to the C, there is a resolution from the 4th to the third. Also note that a G chord, without an F, will not pull to the C, but when the F is added, the pull is very noticeable.


Thats all for tonight, folks

:thumb: :thumb:

[sternj20]

ok NONE of this makes ANY sense to me

[Maveryck]

ok NONE of this makes ANY sense to me


This will help you. (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/login.php?do=logout)

[sternj20]

This will help you. (http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/login.php?do=logout)

that just logged me out

[big_floyd_fan]

i think that was the whole point

[the_almighty_face]

Spastic:


I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure.


A dated argument I know, but what spastic is doing is giving a structured series of theory lessons to someone who knows the basics but needs to elaborate on their knowledge of theory if they want to expand into jazz. These threads of his have been totally invaluable to me, as have the suggestions, and probably also to dozens of other people. And youre talking about trying to impress a 'sense of superiority.' If you see something you think aught to be here, like enharmonic intervals, post an article.

Speaking of which, im not sure if triads and inversions have been covered, they are kind of important. I can probably get a fairly simplistic article done and up if you fancy sharing the thread.

[SillyPuddyonIce]

Ok... I don't know if this is the right forum for this... but ok. I need some notes translated from trumpet to alto sax. Then if you have time maybe explain how you do it as well. We'll figure out the octaves and other thing and change some stuff ourselves, but my friend and I are doing a little side project from our band since he plays sax. I need

G B D C F# A Bb and E

translated from trumpet to alto saxamaphone.

Thanks for further help.

[moghes69]

any one no how to make up some sick *** slap bass lines? any tips would help

[Obsolete]

Question about Minor 6 chords:

If you were to play a Cmin6 chord, would you be playing Aeolian or Dorian? I was told by my bass teacher to play as if it were Dorian, but the lesson a few posts above says play it in Aeolian. So, do I play CEbGAb or CEbGA? Thanks.

Oh, and good work on all these lessons, they're really helping out a lot!

[SillyPuddyonIce]

Never mind about my question I dont need it answered anymore.

[BirdsOfFires]

Obsolute - Dorian. It has an A in it, not an Ab.

[spastic]

Yep:


Cmin6, C-6 - Minor 6 - 1, b3, 5, 6th - Aeolian (6th degree)



That's wrong. For it to be Aeolian the 6th needs to be flat.


Haven't posted in a while :thumb: but I can't let my theory thread down. :p

[TonyChoyIsGod]

Fag muffin

:-*

Ah, there's nothing like the Jazz Forum.

To make this worth while: I was quite close to going to see Sean Malone do a Stick performance this summer, but it's 549 miles away :upset: . Who knows though, I might still go :cool:

[BirdsOfFires]

Spastic, that's what... your first post in jazz in two months?

You've let us down...

:upset:

[Amit]

Stupid and simple question...What exactly does "vamp" mean?

[BirdsOfFires]

"Not Found In This Thread - "Vamp""

[HaVIC5]

Stupid and simple question...What exactly does "vamp" mean?
A vamp is essentially a repeated phrase, chord, or very short chord progression that is used to introduce a song, or to solo over.

[Amit]

A vamp is essentially a repeated phrase, chord, or very short chord progression that is used to introduce a song, or to solo over.

Oh cool...thanks!

Like in Meeting of Spirits or Birds of Fire...mmm.

:naughty:

[packerboarding21]

I was just wondering if anyone could give me some ideas to improve my jazz improvization. i've improved a lot since i first started, but i'd like some tips maybe on how to further improve my skills. thanks.

[BirdsOfFires]

1) Learn your modes.
2) Pratice your modes.
3) Learn chord shapes, construction, etc.
4) Solo using chord tones.
5) Eventually learn other tricks, like flat picking techniques, etc.
6) Pratice, pratice, pratice.

[Prowler01]

Theres so many different articles on modes why don't you point out a good one?
Before I got to them with my guitar teacher (he did chord construction and a few other things first) I had to stop taking lessons cause the money and I've read a few different articles which contradicted each other and am not sure exactly what to do with modes.

[BirdsOfFires]

Pratice them. Learn the relations they all hold to each other. (i.e., if you're playing in C dorian, you can move one step up to D phrygian.) Eventually, learn the relationships between all the scales on the neck. You'll be able to solo anywhere.

(That's it in a very basic nutshell)

[Prowler01]

How am I supposed to learn that....no teacher and I've seen articles that contradict each other so I don't know whats right. Do you know a good site/lesson?

(Isn't there more to it than just memorizing it?)

[Amit]

How am I supposed to learn that....no teacher and I've seen articles that contradict each other so I don't know whats right. Do you know a good site/lesson?

(Isn't there more to it than just memorizing it?)

There are multiple places to play any note on the guitar...Expand on that and you will realize you can easily connect all the modes of a scale throughout the fretboard. You are not limited to playing in the key of 1 sharp (G Major) to the 3rd position (G Major). Take it to the 7th position, while maintaining the key of 1 sharp, and you have your B phyrgian. Then go to the 5th position and you're at A mixolydian.

It's so much easier to show than explain...I hope that (kind of) helped.

[Prowler01]

EDIT AGAIN:

I understand the point of modes now...and I already know the notes all over the fretboard, I don't really use shapes to remember stuff (eggo)

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/106/2 explains it real good, I just saw the link under favorites and realized I never read it before

[Prowler01]

Anyone know anything about substituting more complex chords in for simpler ones and how to know what extensions will sound good? I know how to figure out what will be in key but is there anything else that I can learn about that without just expirimenting?

[moghes69]

EDIT AGAIN:

I understand the point of modes now...and I already know the notes all over the fretboard, I don't really use shapes to remember stuff (eggo)

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/106/2 explains it real good, I just saw the link under favorites and realized I never read it before

on the site what do the M's and P's mean

[moghes69]

EDIT AGAIN:

I understand the point of modes now...and I already know the notes all over the fretboard, I don't really use shapes to remember stuff (eggo)

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/article/106/2 explains it real good, I just saw the link under favorites and realized I never read it before

on the site what do the M's and P's mean

[Maveryck]

They're about intervals.

P = Perfect
M = Major

In the Ionian Mode (Major Scale), the 1st, 4th and 5th are Perfect intervals; the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th are Major intervals. So it's like this:

Perfect 1
Major 2
Major 3
Perfect 4
Perfect 5
Major 6
Major 7

Which is why the site shows:

P1, M2, M3, P4, P5, M6, M7

From there, you can flatten and sharpen different intervals to produce different scales. These new intervals are called Minor, Diminished and Augmented intervals. The site shows these as b, bb, and #, although they're sometimes written as m, o and +.

That part is quite confusing, but once you know what the M's and P's are about, you should be able to figure it out from the site.

[sheep03]

Wow, man. I put "Theory Guru" as a joke, only because I know more theory than a lot of people here, and try to help anyone that asks me. I don't believe I know everything about theory. But I also didn't post everything I know in this thread.

And I'm glad you enjoyed my songs :rolleyes:

- can i first say i have only just started learning jazz theory, i have learnt the scales ect, but not touched on the really difficult stuff. i can play joe satrinai stuff - surfing with the alien ect, so i think i am an ok guitairst for 16, because a lot of my friends think they have learnt songs when they have half learnt them :rolleyes: , i learn them fully, as i did with the satriani stuff. i love playing guitar and although i have covered some of the things in your article i havent covered them all. I think it was helpful and as long as it helps some one i think you have achieved your goal. however this twat who wrote too you is too obnoxious, and if he is such a great guiatist, or musican, would not bother with such petty coments. not every 1 likes the same type of music so dont take it personal about your songs. i'm not a great jazz fan, i like a trange of music from coldplay to metallica, to machine head, to ocationaly some jazz and songs like my sharona by the knack is classic rock. i learn jazz to broaden my playiny. And i think someone who has such petty remarks is just a twat really :D

i think your aticle was good and that guy should get his head out of his arse and smell the roses, sorry if not every 1 is as good as you, but am sure there is someone out there, and i hopfully will be a lot better than you when i get older so there :p

to original article writer - nice article :D

have fun playing guitar, and although i havnt listened too your songs yet i will, i will send you the cover of joe satriani i made (to a bakcing track from guitar port - with some soloing for like the last minute of the songs :D if you e-mail me. nice article and keep writing, cos this guy is a snob :wave:

[bassoprofoundoSlapstah]

Ive hear ray brown (an amazing bassist) say that its sometimes bad to get stuck in patterns on a fretboard because somtimes you can find all of you lines repetitive and sound like your other songs. He said it is better to work on paper before you play, and then work it out. And to not concentrate on the patterns but the notes. What do you guys think of this?

and also is there anyone who would mind talking to me privitaly and giving me theroy lessons (i read sheet music, but i know little about chords and modes) if so my email is Dylanhouse420@hotmail.com or aim at Rastahstojah

message

[spastic]

I agree with trying to avoid playing patterns, but I don't like writing music without my instrument in hand (unless it is a composition or something similar).

I know one guitarist (and it is killing me that I don't remember his name...Ah dammit, he even taught a class at Berklee) that would randomly retune his guitar so the patterns he was used to didn't work anymore, and he only played the notes that sounded good to his ears, not his fingers, so to speak.

[sternj20]

Is it absolutely necessary to learn modes if you want to be good at improvisation? I have knowledge of them, and know the formulas, names, and patterns for each of the modes, but never really practice them or use them. When playing over chords, I think more of just what sounds good, and altering the major scale to fit the chord tones. Should I keep going on with that, or should I start practicing the modes?

[dannyjvh]

wow, cool thread. I'm going to school for this stuff right now so its interesting to see everyone so interested in the stuff that gives me so much headache. This stuff is definitly worth it.

[yellowbasser]

hey dude after the scales you might want to add chord progressions
like for instance an easy 4 chord circle progression is vi-ii-V-I
maybe even add some fun stuff like soloing techniques

[yellowbasser]

consequently jazz is an interpretation and you can really play anything. however to become a successfull jazz soloist LEARN EVERYTHING! modes scales flowing chords and notes and above all stay in school.

[oxo_cubes]

could someone (maybe that pretentious guy near the start of the thread since he knows so much and is so helpful) explain tritone substitution and how it is used?
that would be great, thanks

[ibzguitarbum]

i personally think, if you dontget this stuff, like i didnt, basically, keep improvise jam with someone who does, like a synth player, who can instruct with the chords, you should really know most of the chords first, and know a few scales, the pentonic and blues scale work fine for me, and then keep playing, ask them what progression it is, ask them what scale to use with the chords, ask them everything you can before you play the song, and although that is mostly just a crowd pleaser to start with, it really help you get a boost on understanding theory.

[carlofos]

Hi guys, I consider myself a rookie in this jazz world

is there any drum player who can write some jazz theory for drums and percusion?

thnx

[spastic]

could someone (maybe that pretentious guy near the start of the thread since he knows so much and is so helpful) explain tritone substitution and how it is used?
that would be great, thanks


Tritone substitution is usually used when reharmonizing a song or part of a song.

As you know, a dominant 7th chord is made up of the root (1), a major 3rd (3), a fifth (5), and a minor 7th (b7). The third and seventh are what makes this chord. Even if you leave out the root and fifth, it still sounds like a dominant chord, incomplete though the chord may be.

As you may have noticed, the 3 and b7 are a tritone apart. You should also note that the 3 and b7 of a dominant chord are the same notes as another dominant chord, specifically, the dominant chord a tritone away.

For instance, the G7 chord tones are G(1), B(3), D(5), and F(b7). A tritone away is Db7, which contains Db(1), F(3), Ab(5), and B(b7). Notice that the B and F are the 3rd and 7th of both chords, although inverted.

Because the two most important notes, the 3rd and 7th, are the same in both chords, the two chords can be substituted for one another.


If you didn't feel like reading all that, here is the basics of tritone substitution. Any dominant chord can be substituted for another dominant chord a tritone apart from the original chord.


Now, technically tritone subsitution can be used on any dominant chord. But of course, it does not always sound good. It sounds best if you a) create a chromatic bass line, or b) make the melody more interesting.

Tritone subsitution is often used in II-V-I's because it lends itself prefectly to creating a chromatic bass line. For example, take the II-V-I (in C, to keep it simple) Dmin7-G7-Cmaj7. using tritone substiution, you can replace the G7 with Db7. Now notice the basslines of all these notes: D-Db-C. A bit more modern sound.

Now on to making the melody more interesting. Take the chord progression Cmin7-F7-Bb7. Let's say that over the F7, you have the melody note G. This is the 9th of the F7 chord, a good note. If you want to make it more interesting, you could use tritone substitution and play B7. Now the melody note (G) is the #5 of the chord. Not only would you create a chromatic bass line, but you make the melody note more interesting.

(Note: some people might like the G to be the 9th, rather than the sharp 5th, which is fine. I'm just giving you an example.)


So to recap that long description: Tritone subsitution is the substitution of a dominant chord with another dominant chord a tritone apart. To be used effectively, it should either create a chromatic bass line, or make the melody note more interesting.

[Soulfly666]

Is tritone substitution only used for dominant chords or is it just more common?

[spastic]

Only dominant.

[Soulfly666]

Only dominant.


Ahh ok, thanks. :)

[oxo_cubes]

thanks alot for that-spastic-you genius

[Akehuka7]

hahahaha what the crap! i fell for the this will help you crap... :(

[liquid_tension_experiment]

you for got to mention what all the modes sound like (unless i missed it)
Although any scale can be made to sound like pretty much anything the following is true : major pentatonic can be made to sound chinese and celtic
the phyrigian locrian hungarian and (as someone said) harmonic minor scales all sound eastern
the minor pentatonic blues and bebop all sound basically wastern (jazzy blues classic rock) and although the ionian and aeolian scales are named after greek islands... they don't sound particularly greek because major and minor scales play a part everywhere

[liquid_tension_experiment]

forgot.. not for got

[oxo_cubes]

^^use the edit feature. also u didnt really need to clarify, it wasnt exactly confusing

[M6F6K6R]

wait

[M6F6K6R]

theres one theing i dont understand

[M6F6K6R]

the edit feature is where?

[M6F6K6R]

=s!!

[M6F6K6R]

hmmmmmmmmmmm.....

[casbah rocker]

can anyone post a tutorial for bass? i want to join jazz band at my school next year maybe, and actually knowing how to play jazz might help

[the_almighty_face]

Guitar theory obviously applies to bass, although when applied it will be used differently to create basslines using thirds of scales rather than chords, ie. a root to tonic to seventh, with transitions via. the third and possibly fourth and sixth. Although these notes are more dissonant sounding the listener kind of passes them over because they are a bridge to the emphasized notes.

The only times I have seen 'chords' used on bass are with triads or double stops... double stops tending to be octaves or root/tonic (fifth) notes, the simplest triads are usually major, minor or dominant using the root and either major or minor fifths and sevenths:

Major triad: Root (1st), major fifth, major seventh
Minor triad: Root, minor fifth, minor seventh
Dominant triad: (I think) Root, major fifth, minor seventh

That's how theory is applied to bass in a nutshell, someone correct any mistakes I have made as I rushed this one. Ben.

[junk_funky]

Major triad: Root (1st), major fifth, major seventh
Minor triad: Root, minor fifth, minor seventh
Dominant triad: (I think) Root, major fifth, minor seventh

That's how theory is applied to bass in a nutshell, someone correct any mistakes I have made as I rushed this one. Ben.

whatdo you mean, minor fifth, like a flat five?

[HaVIC5]

Major triad: Root (1st), major fifth, major seventh
Minor triad: Root, minor fifth, minor seventh
Dominant triad: (I think) Root, major fifth, minor seventh

Fifths and Sevenths don't mean five half steps away and seven half steps away. And theres no such thing as a dominant triad with a fifth in it.

[Orpheus]

Spastic's 14, I'm 15, TonyChoy is 14, LZB is 16.
Wow, I cant believe you guys are so young...thats amazing. But anyway I dont learn well by just reading, and I want to start playing some jazz (i am a bassist). Could any of u recomend any good jazz artists to me for my bass studies?

[EGC]

i second that wow, you guys are young. im pretty young too-16. ive been playing like a year-i picked it up quick and for the amount of time ive been playing i kinda kick ***. but im at a crossroad's at the momment. I would hate it if i ended up sounding like every other guitarist. i want to know do you need to know this stuff? im very creative and im good at going with the flow but i dont wanna learn all this stuff if its gonna take away any of my individuality. please help. thanks

[spastic]

The idea with theory (at least in my view) is to learn as much as possible so that you can go past those boundaries. They are only tools to help you be creative. People that only use theory can sound pretty boring, so the idea is to step beyond what you have learned encompasses. The only way to do that is to become very comfortable with what we have been showing you.

[the_almighty_face]

^ But sterility is always a risk, because there is a limit to how much you can be told to do and how much you should learn and develop on your own. By all means learn theory, but every step of the way you should be taking what you have learned and pushing it far beyond that, seeing what you as a player can do with the theory you know. The creative spark is very important.

[jazzfunkboy]

how am i supposed to read this chord on a chord chart (what are it's characteristics)?

A 6/9 (6 over nine)

is it a 6 chord with a 9 with out a 7?

[HaVIC5]

Correct, you will omit the 7, and will include the root, the third, the six and the nine. 6/9 chords can be used instead of dominant chords often, and before the dominant 7 became the staple of jazz, it was the 6.

[jazzfunkboy]

Correct, you will omit the 7, and will include the root, the third, the six and the nine. 6/9 chords can be used instead of dominant chords often, and before the dominant 7 became the staple of jazz, it was the 6.

thanks man. :) no fifth?

i found the chord in a jaco book and i was like :confused:. he has some really crazy chord progressions.

[boog3ee]

greetings all!
I have a jazz band for which i compose most of the music, and since im from the middle east, the influence of arabic music is huge in my tunes, i use Arabic scales that are not usualy used in western music, and end up with interesting original melodies and harmonies from combining the styles from the east and the west...
If you dont mind, i will share a couple of those scales, try them out!

I will present all the scales from the root A as follows:

1- Hijaz:
This is probably the most commonly recognised arabic scale in the west, it is almost identical to the minor harmonic scale, only the root of this scale is the fifth note on the minor harmonic scale, as follows:
Lower to higher:
A, Bd, C#, D, E, F, G, A

2- Nawa Athar:
I personaly love using this scale because of the hamonic possibilities it represents, the scale is identical to a minor scale in the first three chords, and then after that all hell breaks loose, try this out:
Lower to higher:
A, B, C, D#, E, F, G#, A

At any case, there are about 35 known arabic modes and scales, a few of which contain 1/4 tones, which are ofcourse not available on fretted instruments or the piano. if you find this interesting, check out this website :-www.maqamworld.com
By the way, maqam is arabic for scale or mode...
enjoy!
chears! :)

[MalteDK]

cool :) that definetly sounds interressting... i love exotic scales.

one scale i'm kind fond of is the Major Locrian, which i think is arabian too.
do you know this one? lower to higher:

A - B - C# - D - Eb - F - G - A

[the_almighty_face]

boog3ee... thanks for sharing man.

For your kindness as a user, I hope your band gets noticed and goes down in history as unique and brilliant. Face.

[boog3ee]

[...one scale i'm kind fond of is the Major Locrian, which i think is arabian too.]
This is surely an interesting scale or mode, but i highly doubt its Arabian, not to my knowledge at least...the interesting thing about it is that it doesnt contain a perfect Fifth note, makes it not very easy to deal with...
And Mr. Face! thank you very much! and its my pleasure!

[HaVIC5]

thanks man. :) no fifth?

i found the chord in a jaco book and i was like :confused:. he has some really crazy chord progressions.
Fifths are unimportant to chord structure, unless they're altered somehow, like flatted or raised. You could include a fifth, but its really a weak note in the chord.

[boog3ee]

This reminds me of an arabic mode/scale used particularly in Iraq called (Lami), the interesting thing in this mode is that the fifth note is not a perfect fifth, its half a tone lower, like such:-

C - Db - Eb - F - Gb - Ab - Bb - C

What you will find interesting about playing around with this mode is how hard it is to accentuate the root as C without having to go back to it at the end of each musical sentence, you could find yourself suddenly transposing into C# major or F minor (Kurd mode)...it still interesting though, and has an extemely soulful and sad, even desperate, feel to it...
chears

[spastic]

That's the same as the Locrian scale, the seventh mode of the major scale. The reason you transcribe into C# major is becase they contain the same notes.

[boog3ee]

That's the same as the Locrian scale, the seventh mode of the major scale. The reason you transcribe into C# major is becase they contain the same notes.

Ofcourse they contain the same notes, but they are not the same scale, A minor and C major sclaes contain the same notes too, but the difference is huge...
:)

[spastic]

My main point was that the Iraqi scale "Lami" that you were talking about is the same as the locrian mode. I know the difference between modes.

[RideTheSpiral]

Good to see you get modded Zappa.


/goes back to lurking

[Maveryck]

My main point was that the Iraqi scale "Lami" that you were talking about is the same as the locrian mode. I know the difference between modes.


But in the context of that "Lami" scale, Western diatonic modes are irrelevant. Playing a Locrian scale is like playing the seventh mode of a diatonic major scale. Playing a Lami scale, even though it's all the same notes and intervals, it's fundamentally different, because to successfully use a foreign scale such as the Lami, you have to completely forget about diatonic scales and modes.

In Iraqi/Arabic music, the Lami would be its own independent scale, and to truly adopt the Lami scale, you would also have to think of it as independent of any relative mode or Western scale.

[jazzfunkboy]

is the eastern system of music based on the same principles? like staying in key? or is it free/ do what sounds good?

[LiL_MaN]

I posted something much like this in another thread, but I'll try my luck here.

Can somebody please respond with something I can understand? I read mainly tab, and I don't know my notes very well, so could someone just write out a jazz scale for me?

As well, I would appreciate it if somebody would supply me with just a basic little jazzy riff, you know just to get my juices flowing, I've been playing less than a year, so it would help if it were nice and simple.

Oh and can you explain "modes" to me please? What exactly are they? Scales or something?

Thanks much

[MalteDK]

www.wholenote.com has a pretty extensive section of jazz lessons (scales, some chord progressions and "little jazzy riffs"). All the lessons are made in tabs so you can easily figure them out. this is really a useful site, for beginners and advanced people.

(if you wanna know anything about modes/scales just search the database at wholenote, and you will definatly get a lot of results)

go check that out, and if you still dont understand it; just come back here again - someone will surely help you out! :thumb:

[LiL_MaN]

yea..i been there before, it helps a bit, but takes me a while to finger the chords and stuff....thanks, i got some stuff from there...

any one else got ne scales or riffs?

Spastic: How long hav you been playing/learning?

[spastic]

I've been playing guitar for almost 3 years now, and although I've always studied theory (mainly learned some scales), I really started learning theory about a year and a half ago.

[jazzfunkboy]

i have a questin about a chord symbol:

what does this mean: G/C?


is it a cmaj chord with g as a bass note? or is it a combination of both chords? or something else all together?

[spastic]

Almost got it, but it's a Gmaj with a C in the bass.

[jazzfunkboy]

ahh, okay thanks :)

[masone81]

Which is actually Cmaj9 with no 3rd. And that's the way I think of it. It's easier for some people to think G/C, however. It just depends on how you learned.

My name is Mason, btw. I'm a 23 year old jazz pianist from Pittsburgh. Nice thread you have here.

Mason

[jazzfunkboy]

Which is actually Cmaj9 with no 3rd. And that's the way I think of it. It's easier for some people to think G/C, however. It just depends on how you learned.

My name is Mason, btw. I'm a 23 year old jazz pianist from Pittsburgh. Nice thread you have here.

Mason

hey man, welcome. id probably play the G triad or something, but add an E somewhere so it sounds like its a G major and a C major at the same time.

[XAsTheRootsUndoX]

i like to analyze with Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, in which each small phrase is analyzed as a certain chord in a certain lydian scale, changing chords and scales but the same degree [ie, D7 (II in C lydian) to E7b5 (II in D auxiliary diminished lydian)

different lydian scales are (all degrees are relative to major):
Lydian : I II III +IV V VI VII
Lydian Augmented : I II III +IV +V VI VII
Lydian Diminished : I II bIII +IV V VI VII
Lydian Flat Seventh (Dominant) : I II III +IV V VI bVII
Auxiliary Augmented : I II III +IV +V bVII
Auxiliary Diminished : I II bIII IV +IV +V VI VII
Auiliary Diminished Blues : I bII bIII III +IV V VI bVII

the tonic of the phrase is based on the type of chord:
Chord Type - Chord Degree That Is the Tonic
Major/Altered Major - Tonic
Seventh/Altered Seventh - m7
Major With 3rd in Bass/Minor +5 - m6/+5
Minor Seventh b5/Major with +IV in Bass - o5/+4
Major With 5th in Bass - P5
Minor/Altered Minor - m3
Major With 7th in Bass/Seventh With b9 - m2
Seventh +5 - M3

Those are the basics, as complicated as they are.

[Samuel]

Can we get a mod to delete this stuff?

[Frankenstrat]

This is a good thread i didnt go through all of it but maybe someone should post some stuff on harmonic movement (Where you imply different chord tones). Also its great that all the scales and stuff are listed but you cant just play a scale over a solo! Ive seen many a player(including myself) just go up and down scales and it sounds horrible. ALl the great jazz guitar players used simple arpeggios and made lines, created movement, used space.

[spastic]

Of course, but those arpeggios come from scales. Musicians should understand the connection between scales, chords, and arpeggios. They are pretty much one and the same.

[jazzfunkboy]

Of course, but those arpeggios come from scales. Musicians should understand the connection between scales, chords, and arpeggios. They are pretty much one and the same.
123

you have to know the scales before you can improvise in them. thats why we stress the fact that scales are mandatory to learning to improvise. but you definatly cant just run up and down scales when soloing. that is all the math with no feeling.

[Lenny Breau]

One question, is a dominant 7th a 1 3 5 and a flat 7 or sharp 7

[spastic]

Flat 7.

[Zappa]

Sorry it took me so long to delete all those, I don't read this thread much. I'm also sorry I can't do anything more than that ugly "soft-delete" deal.

[safarovnet]

JAZZ-MUGHAM !?
listen here http://www.safarov.net

[ZEROthirtythree]

I would like some explanation of time signatures. I know 19/8 means 19 8th notes in each measure, and 3/4 is 3 quarter notes in each measure, but...:

I need to know how to find the time signature in songs, and how to make songs using time signatures.

[Omega Red]

oh i have a quick question.
does a 9, 11, or 13th chord indacate that a dominant 7 should be play if its written like this
C13 - A13 - F13 - D13

[MikeJump]

I would like some explanation of time signatures. I know 19/8 means 19 8th notes in each measure, and 3/4 is 3 quarter notes in each measure, but...:

I need to know how to find the time signature in songs, and how to make songs using time signatures.


tap your foot.. find a beat
then use your best judgment.

if its your songs.. make sure it timed perfectly.. with a metronome these work in any time i think

[jazzfunkboy]

oh i have a quick question.
does a 9, 11, or 13th chord indacate that a dominant 7 should be play if its written like this
C13 - A13 - F13 - D13


yes those chords would be dominant. a major 13 would look like this: Cmaj13

[Omega Red]

yes those chords would be dominant. a major 13 would look like this: Cmaj13
thought so thanks,
now what does G-7 mean??

[spastic]

Gmin7

Dashes mean minor, triangles mean major, little circles (like degrees) mean diminished, and a little circle with a line through it means half-diminished (min7b5).

[Charlemagne]

I apologize if a similar question has been asked or answered at some point but there was something that confused me... In one of those lessons at the beginning I read this...

"Sometimes chords will list alterations in its usual tensions, and it is very important to pay attention to these. For instance, sometimes you will see a C b9 b13. This means that the normal tones (1, 3, 5, 7) willbe dominant, but the tensions will be b9, 11, b13. So, a C b9 b13 will be played like C E G Bb Db F Ab."

The construction of this chord confuses me. I know in C major there are no sharps or flats, so the normal tones would be C E G B of a 1 3 5 7, I think... and then the b9, 11, and b13, tensions are added the chord would be... C E G B Db F Ab. Again I apologize and that Bb might be a typo or something but is C E G B Db F Ab the correct tones for that C b9 b13?

[spastic]

The chord I was listing was a dominant chord. It actually should have been written C7 b9 b13, which means the chord tones would be 1 3 5 b7 b9 11 b13, or C E G Bb Db F Ab. If the chord was a major chord, then you would be correct (although a b9 and b13 on a major chord would be very odd, but hey, it could happen).

[jazzfunkboy]

I apologize if a similar question has been asked or answered at some point but there was something that confused me... In one of those lessons at the beginning I read this...

"Sometimes chords will list alterations in its usual tensions, and it is very important to pay attention to these. For instance, sometimes you will see a C b9 b13. This means that the normal tones (1, 3, 5, 7) willbe dominant, but the tensions will be b9, 11, b13. So, a C b9 b13 will be played like C E G Bb Db F Ab."

The construction of this chord confuses me. I know in C major there are no sharps or flats, so the normal tones would be C E G B of a 1 3 5 7, I think... and then the b9, 11, and b13, tensions are added the chord would be... C E G B Db F Ab. Again I apologize and that Bb might be a typo or something but is C E G B Db F Ab the correct tones for that C b9 b13?

when a chord is listed as dominant it means the seventh is flatted. so the major 7 of a C chord (B) would become (Bb).

i also have a question on this passage. the word "tensions" in this sense means added tones that are out of key, right? sort of like its what gives that chord its color?

[ZEROthirtythree]

tap your foot.. find a beat
then use your best judgment.

if its your songs.. make sure it timed perfectly.. with a metronome these work in any time i think

Thanks, I'll try.

Quick Question: What is the highest note on a 24 fretted guitar? I know the lowest is E2.

[Maveryck]

Thanks, I'll try.

Quick Question: What is the highest note on a 24 fretted guitar? I know the lowest is E2.


E6.

(Not to be confused with the chord. :p)

[spastic]

when a chord is listed as dominant it means the seventh is flatted. so the major 7 of a C chord (B) would become (Bb).

i also have a question on this passage. the word "tensions" in this sense means added tones that are out of key, right? sort of like its what gives that chord its color?


Color is a better term than out of key, but you have the idea.

[Mr. Orange]

I am glad i found this site, i have many questions haha, but i read through this thread and i thought it was very helpfull. Here's my first question. I learnt the basic, Dorian and the rest of those major modes, i gues you would call them. But i saw thta there are many more different types , and some were to (2cn degree) and (5th degree) what dose that mean? So what is a degree? and is dorian and phrygian in one group and for example the harmonic minor in a different group with an entire different set of modes to accompany it? if so where would i find out what modes go with other modes? thanks in advance bro

[Mr. Orange]

oh yeah and do you still use AIM?

[spastic]

I still use AIM, although not that frequently. My screenname is still FreeMusicNo1, and I am still willing to help people out with questions.

The degree refers to a tone in a scale. For instance, the third degree of C major would be E. And yes, the major scale, melodic scale, and harmonic scale all have different modes. The harmonic scale and its modes aren't that common, but the melodic minor modes are. In the beginning of the thread I listed the modes of the melodic minor scales in terms of degrees, so you should be able to figure out patterns from those in all different keys.

[ninjamonkey]

replying to first page:

Whats this berklee thing you all are talking about?

The summer camp?

EDIT: I guess I might as well bring this up now. this thread seems appropriate.

I'm in the jazz band at my school. I'm having some trouble though. I usually just play 7th chords even if the chord chart mentions alterations like 13s and stuff. I think I wind up playign a lot of wrong chords this way.

The Jazz band teacher told me to just play the "shells", which i guess is just the 3 and 7? What abotu when the chord is just major or minor and not a 7th chord? What abotu when its a 6th chord? How do you all go about playign shells? I think I know how to do it, but it seems like it would take forever to learn how to do it for even one song.

The Jazz teacher also complains that I play too low on the neck. I guess this is cause I use root 6 and root 5 chord voicings maybe?

Basically, do you have any tips for playing guitar in jazz band?

[Mr. Orange]

ok now for the whole chord progression thing. if i want ot make complicated chords in a progression how do i do that, still use hte scales and modes? and if and when i get a progression how do i determine which chord ot use as the mood scale?
for example: A major, C#min, some weird chord, low to high(x4545x, and another low to high(x5767x) how do i find what chords to progress too, and what scaes to play on top of this progression, do i jsut pick any chord i want and then play the scalle to that, and last question. if it tuns out to be that weird 4545 chord what freakin scale would that be?
this is where i am getting stuck and frusterated
thanks to anyone who knows

[Maveryck]

The chord progression there is:

Amaj (577655)
C#min (x46654)
C#m7b5 (x4545x)
Dmaj7 (x5767x)

Play those chords, in order, four times, and after the final Dmaj7, play the Amaj chord one last time (to "resolve" the progression).

So the whole thing should look like:

Amaj, C#min, C#m7b5, Dmaj7,
Amaj, C#min, C#m7b5, Dmaj7,
Amaj, C#min, C#m7b5, Dmaj7,
Amaj, C#min, C#m7b5, Dmaj7,
Amaj.

As for scales, this is a bit more complicated. There are two options:

1. Play an A Major Pentatonic scale the whole way through (A B C# E F#)

2. If you feel like something a little more advanced, use an A Major scale over the Amaj chord, and the C#min chord. Then switch to an A Mixolydian scale over the C#m7b5 chord. Then back to an A Major scale over the Dmaj7 chord (and the final Amaj chord).

This is what those scales look like, in the order that you should play them:

A Major (A B C# D E F# G# A)
A Major (A B C# D E F# G# A)
A Mixolydian (A B C# D E F# G A)
A Major (A B C# D E F# G# A)

The only difference is that in the A Mixolydian scale, there's a G instead of a G# (this is because the C#m7b5 chord over which you're playing the A Mixolydian scale has a G, and not a G#).

If that scale changing business is too much to keep in mind though, just stick with the A Major Pentatonic scale.

[gluhaca]

I m still learning everything and anithing about music and all of you helped me a lot.

I m playing bass in a band so my practice is just fine but my theory is 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000- therefor this site means a lot lot lot.........


thanks

[Mr. Orange]

thanks maverick, but heres teh real problem. now how can i find more chords to add? Can i just pick the F# and then make it a aug or a b7b5, how do i know when and how to make it a more colorful chord?

[Maveryck]

Well, if you want to find chords to add to the progression, just look at the key of the song. The progression is in the key of A major, which is A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#.

To build a chord that's going to fit into an A major progression, just pick one of the notes of the scale to use as your root note. For example, F#.

To help you get your head around the process of chord building, organise the notes of the A major key that I typed out above, except use F# as your starting point instead of A. That means, instead of having A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, you have F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E.

They're the same notes, just in a different order.

Now, think of those notes like this:

1st - F#
2nd - G#
3rd - A
4th - B
5th - C#
6th - D
7th - E

Now, just take the 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th, and you have your basic jazz chord. In this case, the F# minor seventh chord (F#m7).

If you want more "colour", add one or two (or all) of the other notes. They're the 2nd, the 4th, and the 6th, but in jazz circles, they're called the 9th, the 11th, and the 13th. It's easy to understand why:

1st - F#
2nd - G#
3rd - A
4th - B
5th - C#
6th - D
7th - E
8th - F#
9th - G#
10th - A
11th - B
12th - C#
13th - D
14th - E

That should give you some idea of how chords are built in jazz. Just find the key of the song (A major in this case), pick a root note (F# in this case), and then go through the steps of re-arranging them so you can see what notes make up the basic jazz chord (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th), and what notes you can use as your extensions (9th, 11th, 13th). :)



Finally, if you want, you can experiment with alterations. That is, taking one of the notes of the basic or extended jazz chord, and changing it up or down one semitone. A typical example would be to take the basic F#m7 chord (F#, A, C#, E), and altering the 5th by flattening it one semitone. This changes the chord to an F#m7b5 (F#, A, C, E). Also common is taking, say, an Amaj chord, and altering the 5th by sharpening it one semitone, changing an Amaj7 (A, C#, E, G#) to an A+maj7 (A, C#, E#, G#).

But those are fairly tricky chords to compose with, and because they use notes that aren't in the key of the piece, they're kind of tough to solo over.

[Omega Red]

what is a cadence

[Charlemagne]

This is what I got from dictionary.com about "cadence"...

"Cadence - A progression of chords moving to a harmonic close, point of rest, or sense of resolution."

So I'm guessing that its basically a resolved chord progression...

[Charlemagne]

Now I had a question, this may not be the best place to ask it, but I find that in this particular forum there are much better odds of me getting a helpful and informative answer, no matter what the question is.

I was wondering if any Jazz guitar players here have any experience in learning guitar through the CAGED method, through books such as Fretboard Logic, and if it is a good approach to learning and really understanding how to play Jazz guitar. The CAGED method teaches you an understanding of guitar in a purely guitar way through learning basic patterns and then, once you understand them, changing them to more advanced things. My problem is that I have trouble trying to decide whether I want to try and learn guitar and theory that way, or just try and study all the theory I can and try to apply it to guitar myself. It seems that the latter option would take alot longer but if I wanted to play other instruments it may make that easier. But I just wanted to know if anyone has learned through the CAGED method and found it beneficial to their Jazz playing...

[Charlemagne]

Sooo anyways, I've got another question...

When writing in Key signatures for a song, I know if the key is major you write the flats or sharps that exist in that keys major scale. But I was wondering about Minor keys. Songs can be written in an overall minor key right? So the key signature would then be all the sharps or flats that exist in that Minor scale? And the minor scale used is the Natural Minor (1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7)? I just wanted to make sure with most of this.

I was also wondering if since key signatures can are based off the major and minor scales of a song could you ever have one that's based off a Harmonic Minor or any other scale? It would probably mess up all the chords relative to the key like the I-IV-V-I progression stuff, but could a song ever be written with some other scale as the key signature and "work" at all?

[Jace The Bass]

For your first question yes

For the second question is no b/c all the other exotic ( altered ) scales are based off the major scale like for example that you gave the Harmonic minor which we know that two notes of the major scale are altered ( b3 , b6 ) giving us the harmonic minor scale
So the key sig. rule does not apply to other scales except the major scale

[Jace The Bass]

Here's some Bebop scales ( If you know your major scale use that as a reference )

Major 1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7

Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Dom 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7

Half dim 1 b2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 7 ( here's a tip think of it as a half dim scale with both fifth's )

Anyway enjoy


Another thing to add is when you're learning your scales chords arppegios etc
LISTEN to how the scale or chord sounds while your playing it instead of memorizing fretboard shapes although it helps in a technique pointview and to get your finger - fretboard relationship hearing the sound of it is more important
The idea of doing this is try to connect your ear to your fingers so you don't have to think while you are playing so you just know the sound instead of mathematically working it out in your head or by the shape that you learnt

BTW - Great thread

[ejf721]

This is what I got from dictionary.com about "cadence"...

"Cadence - A progression of chords moving to a harmonic close, point of rest, or sense of resolution."

So I'm guessing that its basically a resolved chord progression...
There are many types of cadences. In general there are two types of cadences: Harmonic and rythmic. Some common harmonic cadences are authentic cadences (great for finishes of a song or part of a song) the chords use in this progression are V to a I. It will have a completeness effect. There are deceptive cadences which push the progression forward V to any other chord that isn't a I chord. Then there are half cadences which is a progression with any chord to a V chord. This feels half complete which of course can be seen in the name. There are more but im in class and i gotta go. Oh yea on more thing you have to mix the progression with rythm to get the full affect.

[spastic]

Sorry I haven't been around to post in here, I've been busy lately. Thanks to Mav and the others that have helped out; reps all around (except Mav, but I don't think you need it :thumb:).


Hopefully I'll be back around here soon, although for now there don't seem to be many unanswered questions.

[crispy]

I was also wondering if since key signatures can are based off the major and minor scales of a song could you ever have one that's based off a Harmonic Minor or any other scale? It would probably mess up all the chords relative to the key like the I-IV-V-I progression stuff, but could a song ever be written with some other scale as the key signature and "work" at all?

If you wanna use a harmonic minor key, you just put in the natural minor key and write the sharpened seventh as an accidental. It's the same with other exotic scales

[xhaereticusx]

the 1,3,5,7 of a chord are the chord tones. a few people in this thread were looking for that.

spastic did you attend berklee or just a camp or something?

who did you study with?

im currently finishing up my first semester here

[Iron Turtle]

Howdy, all! I have two questions. 1) How would a Jazz composer approach harmonizing a progression in a "Jazz style?" For example, I've heard a lot of popular xmas tunes redone to sound really cool (well, as cool as an xmas tune can be) by using chords with a lot of altered tones and such as well as by altering the progression to incorporate some jazz cliches and so forth (Suggestions for texts on this subject are also appreciated.) 2) I would like to build a small library of cool chord progressions / turnarounds / modulation aids (by which I mean a small progression which makes a modulation sound more natural) and so on to use as a basis for composing songs to practice improvising over. I would appreciate any examples, suggestions , or links to places where I can find more examples of this. OK, thanks for the info everyone!!

[Jace The Bass]

In it's broadest sense "Reharmonizing" a progression is taking a melody and reorganizing its harmonic structure ( chord progression) there are a number of ways

a)- You could use substitutions -chords that fill the same function as another chord because they share the same notes or shared tones
ie: Tri-tone substitution ( I'm sure someone explained this earlier on this thread )

b)- You can extend the harmonic underpinning by implying modulations (basically just setting up some dominant chords ahead of your target tonality) take the example of the Trane changes

D- ( D- Eb7 ) half step

G7 ( Ab B7 ) min 3rd

C ( E G7 ) min 3rd

C

This is done for a ordinary II-V-I chord progression encompassing four bars as explained above

c)- You can abandon any relation to the current function and treat the section as creativity as your imagination and ear will allow ie:Minor becomes major and vice versa , everything becomes a dominant , extended passages of one tonality becomes sections where every melody note is harmonized

* It's Okay explaining this in words but you have to have a good foundation in hearing this stuff I mean not only listening to artist but scribe there progressions and compare to other artist that play the same tune . Herbie is a great example on the Album " Kind of Blue " as well as getting information from text books ( The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine explains a little on the subject)as well as doing exercises yourself
ie: Here's a harmonization of a C major scale ( using chords )


Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bmin7b5

Here's another

Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim Cmaj Dmin

I mean try and figure out a melody line and add chords to it by doing this alot will help esp. in composing

As for your second question there are so many progressions which will take an age to write so I'll give you some common ones and hopefully others would show you more

II-V-I
I-iv-II-V-I
I-IV-V-I
I-iv-IV-V

Like I said earlier it's okay knowing the theory behind it all but you have to hear it to fully understand the logic involved once that's achieved then you can look forward to some fine musicianship

Anyway I hope that helps although others here will glady help ya out

[spastic]

the 1,3,5,7 of a chord are the chord tones. a few people in this thread were looking for that.

spastic did you attend berklee or just a camp or something?

who did you study with?

im currently finishing up my first semester here


I took a week long camp, and studied with David Fiuczynski among other pople I don't remember right now. How do you like the school?

[Iron Turtle]

Jace, thanks for replying.

In response, to your points:

a) I am already familiar with what I would consider to be the more common chord-sub techniques (e.g. using chords a 3rd away, using chords that are a subset of another chord such as C (CEG) is a subset of Ami7 (ACEG), and tri-tone subs.) Are there any other less-commonly used techniques or is there a text somewhere that covers this?

b) I really didn't understand what you are saying here. Could you please elaborate?

c) that's sort of a catch all rule for you don't have to follow the rules, right? :) what exactly do you mean by everything becomes a dominant? Do you mean harmonizing each chord as a dominant seventh based on whatever root note the melody suggests?

I'll check out the herbie album you mention as well as the text you suggested. thanks! I'll work as you suggest also on harmonizing scales using different substitution techniques to get the sound down (good tip!)

Regarding the chord progs, obviously ii V I , I IV V, are very prominent in much of jazz and popular music - what I was really looking for is some of the other stuff that you listed (I found I-iv-IV-V , and I-iv-II-V to be particularly interesting) - if you could (time permitting) list more examples such as this or even more specific altered chords even, I would appreciate it. Once again , thanks for the help!!

[Jace The Bass]

Opps! I assumed you knew the coltrane changes It's a formular made by the man himself go here for the info ( http://www.lucaspickford.com/tranechanges.jpg )
If you can get access to the Countdown recording then you would see how it works
And yes there are no rules it depends on your ear I mean look at how Thelonious Monk conveyed his sound
What do you mean by altered chords I'm not sure what you mean here?

[Iron Turtle]

By altered chords I meant rather than just representing the basic chord type (major, minor, dominant, etc.) with roman numerals, giving a detailed description of the chord including all added tones.

For example, in the key of A minor, let's say I want to represent the common turnaround: F13 E7(b13) E7 I could represent it in a bare bones method as VI V7, but that really doesn't show the added (altered) tones which give this turnaround its flavor. So to do so, I would represent it as VI(13) V7(b13) V7 or just use the actual chords as listed above. I may be misusing terminology when I refer to this as showing the 'altered chords' , but I don't know what would be the proper terminology to use here. Anyway, I'll check out the tranechanges link and see if I can figure out what you were talking about. Thanks for the help!

[Jace The Bass]

Ahh I see sorry dude Okay again there are no rules it depends on what sound that youré looking for . Once you get the sounds of all types of chords altered or it's basic type in your ears then you can see things in another world or perspective

I mean there are cats coming up in this music that treat the lead sheet as their only reference and play what that chord change is every chorus and every time they play that tune so an example of my experience is whenever I see a diminshed chord I sub. a dominant chord b9#9b13 cause at that time that's what I'm hearing or another is off the tune "Nardis" there's a guy I play with that likes to play Amaj7 on the first chord of the bridge but what I'm hearing that harmony is a minor so that's what I'll play
But remember if the others are'nt hearing what youré hearing then it's a good idea to keep it in perspective otherwise you're gonna end up with clashes
It's really hard to explain in words you have to experience it I guess is the best I can come up with
But I do suggest getting your ears use to all this terminology so you can really understand all this jargon ( I call it ) then you will be doing things where nobody has gone before and if the musicians that youré with are on the same wave-length then who knows where you'll end up.
BTW- I don't do this all the time only when I hear other players that go off in their own tangent then I usually give it back to them when it's my turn and make them follow me( LOL ) kinda like a musical joke

[crispy]

Altered chords are chords which have their notes taken out of key. Egs

C7b5
C#11 etc

basically they're those with flattened or sharped 5ths, 9ths, 11ths and so ons. With chords like C9s and C13s and 6/9s (or in whatever key) are called extended chords, very much like a major 7th chord is.

The good thing about these chords is that you can just pretty much substituite them and they'll add lots of different flavours to your music depending on how you want them to sound. There're not much rules to which one you can use when and where, just use your ears

So to answer your question (hopefully) i'll just take a I-vi-ii-V progression in C and stir in some more colourful chords. try this: Cmaj9 - A7#5 - Dm9 - G7#5. voice leading wise it has a descending melody line.

[Ryckman]

Hi, I'm just beginning to make a concerted effort in learning theory, eventually so i can learn to play jazz (both on guitar and piano) and I had a question regarding chord building I hoped someone would be able to answer.

What is the best way to approach chord building? The way detailed in this thread (I have not read the entire thing, but at the beginning anyways) is based on finding the major scale of the key the root note of the chord defines and applying the formula (1 3 5 b7, etc.). However, when I have tried building chords, I take a more interval-centered approach. I take the root note of the chord and apply intervals to find whichever chord I am trying to make.

I don't know if thats even a correct way, but it feels more natural to me than finding the respective major scale for every chord and applying the formula (at least, on piano it does). I am just a beginner and would like to know which approach is more beneficial in the long run, especially in respects to improvisation? Also, which approach to some of you guys use?

[ejf721]

I recomend you use the major and minor scales to build chords. If you truly want to play jazz you want to be comfortable with the most scales and modes as possible. Building chords using scales will familierize yourself with the fret board and the piano keys, but more so the fret board
Hi, I'm just beginning to make a concerted effort in learning theory, eventually so i can learn to play jazz (both on guitar and piano) and I had a question regarding chord building I hoped someone would be able to answer.

What is the best way to approach chord building? The way detailed in this thread (I have not read the entire thing, but at the beginning anyways) is based on finding the major scale of the key the root note of the chord defines and applying the formula (1 3 5 b7, etc.). However, when I have tried building chords, I take a more interval-centered approach. I take the root note of the chord and apply intervals to find whichever chord I am trying to make.

I don't know if thats even a correct way, but it feels more natural to me than finding the respective major scale for every chord and applying the formula (at least, on piano it does). I am just a beginner and would like to know which approach is more beneficial in the long run, especially in respects to improvisation? Also, which approach to some of you guys use?

[jazzfunkboy]

i have a question about a certain rythmic pattern ( i want to know for sure what time signature its in).

the rythem is-

|123 123 12|123 123 12|
have you ever heard the song "Clocks" by Coldplay? thats basically what i mean by the rythem.

its quite common, so i thought it would be useful to know.

[boog3ee]

i have a question about a certain rythmic pattern ( i want to know for sure what time signature its in).

the rythem is-

|123 123 12|123 123 12|
have you ever heard the song "Clocks" by Coldplay? thats basically what i mean by the rythem.

its quite common, so i thought it would be useful to know.

Basically its 4/4. another good example is The Simpsons opening soundtrack...

[jazzfunkboy]

Basically its 4/4. another good example is The Simpsons opening soundtrack...


okay, thanks.

[MikeRatcliffe]

California Uber Alles is another good example of that rythym.

[mikeeee]

I don't know how to work with intervals in my improvisation, could someone help me? I know intervals but I want to know which intervals play on different keys and on chord progressions.

Thanks

mike

[HaVIC5]

Basically its 4/4. another good example is The Simpsons opening soundtrack...
It might be written in 8/8, though, since that's really what it is. It's pulse is in eighth notes. I've seen it written before as 3+3+2/8.

[boog3ee]

That is the Pulse of the beat, thats why I said its "technically" 4/4 which is almost identical...

[HaVIC5]

That is the Pulse of the beat, thats why I said its "technically" 4/4 which is almost identical...
Remember time signatures aren't fractions. 6/8 feel bears no resemblance to 3/4. In fact, its more similar to 2/4.

[Jace The Bass]

I don't know how to work with intervals in my improvisation, could someone help me? I know intervals but I want to know which intervals play on different keys and on chord progressions.

Thanks

mike
This is where working your ear as well as your knowledge of intervals comes in to play
I'm not sure what you mean by in different keys as the intervals go from unison to being it's octave unless you are going towards extending higher ie:( major 9th etc... )
Depending on the key in which you are in you can use any of the twelve intervals in your favour like the old saying goes their are no wrong notes only wrong resolutions
But the key is getting your ear and finger relationship working so you can play what you hear in your head which is the foundation of soloing

[dum drummer]

Any jazz drummers in the house? :wave:

[isaluteu]

hey i have been thoroughly confused with modes for some time now. i don't understand the purpose of modes if they are just the same scale in different starting positions thanks for any help.

[chips88]

hey i have been thoroughly confused with modes for some time now. i don't understand the purpose of modes if they are just the same scale in different starting positions thanks for any help.

Yeah, I've never gotten that either. I mean, I know how to play them, but I don't know a whole lot of theory, so, hopefully someone can answer the question.

[Silvermedalmafia]

Alright, I can give you guys the breakdown on modes. Every key is composed of modes. The key of E major (which you should know) is made of the chords E major, F# minor, G#minor, A major, B major, C#minor, D#minor (flat fifth) and repeats itself from there. Each chord of the key represents a particular mode. The modes are as follows:
1-Ionian
2-Dorian
3-Phrygian
4-Lydian
5-Mixolydian
6-Phyagrian
7-Locrine

So, If you are playing a song in the key of E and the chord progression is E, G#minor, A, F#minor, then when you are soloing you would use the Ionian scale for the first part, the phrygian scale for the second part, the mixolydian scale for the third part, and the dorian scale for the fourth part. that's a loose breakdown, and please correct me if I am wrong.

[spastic]

Actually, you'd use the lydian scale for the third part (the A chord), but that doesn't answer their questions entirely.

The importance of modes is twofold. One, it simplifies playing over changes. It's easier to see Em7 and think "Dorian" than it is to see an Em7 and think "Em7 is the II chord of D major, so I'll play D major." Also, in jazz moreso than in rock or other genres, the chords are seperate from one another, even if they are in the same family. It sounds better over a II-V-I to play the II chord, the V chord, and the I chord, instead of just playing a solo in the key of the I chord. It creates more of a sense of tension and resolution.

However, if you really wanted to, you could think this way, except for one small but important fact. The major scale contains "avoid" notes (bad term) which may work over some chords but not others that are part of the same family of scales. For instance, if you hold an F against a Cmaj7 chord, you should notice some disonance. [I can't tell you why (and neither can most people), but it has to do with the other tones that are present in the c note.] But an F sounds fine over a Dm7, or over a G7. And a C does not sound good over a G7. To see this more clearly, playing with modes will help.

To add one more point, there are no avoid notes in the melodic minor scale. It is possible to play the melodic minor scale over any of the chords that appear in melodic minor harmony.

I hope that gives you enough of a reason to learn your modes. While it is not essential, it is very helpful and will make things much clearer.

[Maveryck]

Actually, you'd use the lydian scale for the third part (the A chord), but that doesn't answer their questions entirely.

The importance of modes is twofold. One, it simplifies playing over changes. It's easier to see Em7 and think "Dorian" than it is to see an Em7 and think "Em7 is the II chord of D major, so I'll play D major." Also, in jazz moreso than in rock or other genres, the chords are seperate from one another, even if they are in the same family. It sounds better over a II-V-I to play the II chord, the V chord, and the I chord, instead of just playing a solo in the key of the I chord. It creates more of a sense of tension and resolution.

However, if you really wanted to, you could think this way, except for one small but important fact. The major scale contains "avoid" notes (bad term) which may work over some chords but not others that are part of the same family of scales. For instance, if you hold an F against a Cmaj7 chord, you should notice some disonance. [I can't tell you why (and neither can most people), but it has to do with the other tones that are present in the c note.] But an F sounds fine over a Dm7, or over a G7. And a C does not sound good over a G7. To see this more clearly, playing with modes will help.

To add one more point, there are no avoid notes in the melodic minor scale. It is possible to play the melodic minor scale over any of the chords that appear in melodic minor harmony.

I hope that gives you enough of a reason to learn your modes. While it is not essential, it is very helpful and will make things much clearer.


The way I see it, playing an F over a Cmaj7 chord creates a Cmaj7add11.

That means there's a minor second (or a minor ninth) interval between the E and the F, and a tritone interval between the B and the F.

It's the same chord as a G13(no5)/C, so it's not surprising that when you create that chord out of what's supposed to be the I chord in a progression, it won't sound too great.

[spastic]

No, the F does not sound good (and I use the word good very loosely here) over a Cmaj7 chord. Most if not all musicians proficient in music theory will agree with me.

Mark Levine, the author of "The Jazz Theory Book", described it to me (as best as he could remember; he hadn't taken this course since college). Needless to say, if he didn't really remember then I certainly cannot explain it well at all, but I will give you the basic outline. As you probably know, within every note, there are a series of overtones (if you play a note really low, you can here them better). The overtones that come out the most strongly are the root, the second, the third, the perfect fifth, and the sixth. For whatever reason, when you combine the 4th with these notes, it sounds bad.

Now, I don't think it's necessary to know why it sounds bad, but nevertheless, that tone does sound dissonant over a major chord. If you lower it an octave it sounds alright, and if you only use it as a passing tone it sounds alright, but if you hold an F against a Cmaj chord, it sounds dissonant.

[HaVIC5]

Agreed. I try to avoid the perfect fourth like the plague except as a passing tone in my soloing. It sounds too much like the chord is moving away from itself before the chord actually changes.

[Maveryck]

No, the F does not sound good (and I use the word good very loosely here) over a Cmaj7 chord. Most if not all musicians proficient in music theory will agree with me.

Mark Levine, the author of "The Jazz Theory Book", described it to me (as best as he could remember; he hadn't taken this course since college). Needless to say, if he didn't really remember then I certainly cannot explain it well at all, but I will give you the basic outline. As you probably know, within every note, there are a series of overtones (if you play a note really low, you can here them better). The overtones that come out the most strongly are the root, the second, the third, the perfect fifth, and the sixth. For whatever reason, when you combine the 4th with these notes, it sounds bad.

Now, I don't think it's necessary to know why it sounds bad, but nevertheless, that tone does sound dissonant over a major chord. If you lower it an octave it sounds alright, and if you only use it as a passing tone it sounds alright, but if you hold an F against a Cmaj chord, it sounds dissonant.


I know it doesn't sound good.

I was just saying, perhaps the fact that the perfect fourth and the major seventh are a tritone apart has something to do with that. Like, if you play an F over a Cmaj7, it makes the B resolve to a C, and the F resolve to an E, same as any chord with that tritone in it.

[Bryan Blakey]

1-Ionian
2-Dorian
3-Phrygian
4-Lydian
5-Mixolydian
6-Phyagrian
7-Locrine


6 - Aeolian (natural minor)
7 - Locrian

[jazzfunkboy]

Agreed. I try to avoid the perfect fourth like the plague except as a passing tone in my soloing. It sounds too much like the chord is moving away from itself before the chord actually changes.

exactly, lingering on the fourth implies a chord change to the listener. if the change doesnt happen it sounds confusing. at least thats my take on that.

but i have a question:

i heard one of my music teachers say that there are like 17 different rythmic patterns in the rythem alphabet (if you will). what are these 17 patterns? usually i deal with any sight-reading stuff as i see it but i think it would be really helpful to just memorize it.

[xhaereticusx]

i dont know about 17 but i have a book that does 42 i believe. it starts with 4/4 and does 7 attacks per measure every possible way then it goes to 6 attacks. then it does 3/4 and so on. its a really good book if you have trouble with reading rythms like dotted notes and such. its called melodic rythms for guitar but you could use it for any instrument. its a berklee press book.

[jazzfunkboy]

i dont know about 17 but i have a book that does 42 i believe. it starts with 4/4 and does 7 attacks per measure every possible way then it goes to 6 attacks. then it does 3/4 and so on. its a really good book if you have trouble with reading rythms like dotted notes and such. its called melodic rythms for guitar but you could use it for any instrument. its a berklee press book.

awesome, i may just pick that up. thanks.

[Jace The Bass]

Here's a thought
Which method do you like about your approaching to soloing in a jazz context

a) Blanket scale approach - By finding the key or basic tonality and playing a single scale to cover the entirety of the area
b) Chordal/scalular approach - By playing the appropriate scale/chord for each chord within each bar
c) Outside playing - By simply playing passing notes or notes outside the key signature to create tension

I've found out that the blanket scale approach is more melodic in terms of spacing and the chordal/scalular method tends to be failsafe in other words all the right notes played within that chord ( continous scale ) and playing out gives you tension provided you resolve it
But playing a combination as well as a bit of technique gives you clarity of building up your solo's as well as being melodic and being structured at the same time
Just something to think about anyway your thought's on the matter?

[Samuel]

Here's a thought
Which method do you like about your approaching to soloing in a jazz context

a) Blanket scale approach - By finding the key or basic tonality and playing a single scale to cover the entirety of the area
b) Chordal/scalular approach - By playing the appropriate scale/chord for each chord within each bar
c) Outside playing - By simply playing passing notes or notes outside the key signature to create tension

I've found out that the blanket scale approach is more melodic in terms of spacing and the chordal/scalular method tends to be failsafe in other words all the right notes played within that chord ( continous scale ) and playing out gives you tension provided you resolve it
But playing a combination as well as a bit of technique gives you clarity of building up your solo's as well as being melodic and being structured at the same time
Just something to think about anyway your thought's on the matter?


I myself generally go with the blanket method for about 75% of the time, but usually with a lot of passing tones and chromaticism thrown in the mix. The other 25 is usually by taking a chord tone with chromatics approach.

[Bryan Blakey]

Here's a thought
Which method do you like about your approaching to soloing in a jazz context

a) Blanket scale approach - By finding the key or basic tonality and playing a single scale to cover the entirety of the area
b) Chordal/scalular approach - By playing the appropriate scale/chord for each chord within each bar
c) Outside playing - By simply playing passing notes or notes outside the key signature to create tension

I've found out that the blanket scale approach is more melodic in terms of spacing and the chordal/scalular method tends to be failsafe in other words all the right notes played within that chord ( continous scale ) and playing out gives you tension provided you resolve it
But playing a combination as well as a bit of technique gives you clarity of building up your solo's as well as being melodic and being structured at the same time
Just something to think about anyway your thought's on the matter?

I solo "outside" (Thelonius Monk) when possible, like when I'm playing with a combo. When with the big band, I just follow the changes, which are most of the time simple blues.

[spastic]

The blanket scale approach is ok, but seems to lack something for me. I always try to play around each chord, and always add passing and chromatic notes, even if I am (rarely) using the blanket scale approach.

I think you should be able to hear the chord progression in a solo (not always, but as a general rule), but it should still have direction and good melodic ideas. The blanket scale approach covers the latter but not the former.

[Jace The Bass]

Good point spastic
I think I use the blanket scale approach when theirs like too many chords in one bar or the tempo is at a ridiculous speed esp. Cherokee dam those horn players they just love uptempo stuff but you are right you should be able to hear the chord progression in a solo

[spastic]

Well yeah I'll use the blanket scale approach when I have to, but I don't like it. For example, I use it in Giant Steps and Countdown, but it would sound so much better if I could hit all of those chords.

But I can't. Not yet anyways. :-p

[jazzfunkboy]

here is an easy one: do "sus 2" and "sus 4" chords include the thirds? im almost positive they dont, but someone was trying to tell me they do.

[MinstrelInTheGallery]

Hey, I am new to this message board and I have a fair amount of knowledge dealing with music theory so if any one wants help I'd be glad to help out :naughty:

[spastic]

here is an easy one: do "sus 2" and "sus 4" chords include the thirds? im almost positive they dont, but someone was trying to tell me they do.


No they do not, hence the title of 'sus' (any sus chord does not have a third).

[Jace The Bass]

Here's a question "How do you free yourself from reading Lead sheets ? " Do you use the Roman numerial system ( II-V-iiv...etc ) or do you analyse the key and use your ears or do you theorically group it in sections ( ie: find two fives or figure out repeated patterns of the form ) any of you guys got any other method you like to share?

[spastic]

Depends on the song. Grouping the song into II-V's or other common chord progressions is probably my most common technique, but not every song has common chord progressions; in those cases, I either memorize it completely, or try as best as I can to group it together theoretically.

[jazzfunkboy]

No they do not, hence the title of 'sus' (any sus chord does not have a third).

okay, thanks. i was pretty sure, but what convinced me that i had to ask is that my music teacher was saying that they did have thirds. i want to get him fired soo much sometimes. hes cool, but doesnt have much of an education in music.

[coodlebass]

Hey Spastic, great job with the thread thought some of it is a little bit out of my reach. Just some questions about you for a change,at what age did you start musical theory training and who/where did you learn from? Because, well, its impressive for a 14 y/o to know all of this.

[Bryan Blakey]

Hey Spastic, great job with the thread thought some of it is a little bit out of my reach. Just some questions about you for a change,at what age did you start musical theory training and who/where did you learn from? Because, well, its impressive for a 14 y/o to know all of this.

He just turned 16, if his birthday is correct.

[Jace The Bass]

Yeah man hit them with it while they're young b/c they'll thank you for it later on down the track
BTW I'm hoping my g/f will have my kid since I've been going out with her for two years which is a record for me and hopefully I can turn him into a drummer so i can jam with him :D
But seriously with the right teacher you can progress rapidly no matter what age it depends on the teacher
You know the moto "Good teacher good student so spastic has got a good teacher

[Bryan Blakey]

You learn the fastest when you teach it, I have first hand experience with that. Every week I give a few (4) kids trombone lessons, and I teach them a little bit of theory as well. I also teach a few (2) kids strictly theory, we sit at a piano every week and I write out things on blank sheet music, teach them theory, help them with ear training, and work on rhythms and things. Some days I'll bring one of my jazz albums and we'll kind of analyze it - intervals, rhythms, and so forth. Right now both of them are still at a basic level (they are both 7th graders), but they, as well as I, are learning a lot very quickly. I'm hoping to soon get into jazz theory and composition and fun things like that with them.

So the bottom line is, if you want to quickly broaden your knowledge of something, teach it to someone, no matter what it is.

[tgadrummer]

tip -
harmonic minor sounds like arabic
in music class we called it 'hell need a drink' minor

if you want a really cool arabic sound, try this scale, i don't know what it's technical name is, i've only heard it called the Byzantine Scale:

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7 8

basically a harmonic minor scale with a flat 2 and a sharp 3.

[Jace The Bass]

You learn the fastest when you teach it, I have first hand experience with that. Every week I give a few (4) kids trombone lessons, and I teach them a little bit of theory as well. I also teach a few (2) kids strictly theory, we sit at a piano every week and I write out things on blank sheet music, teach them theory, help them with ear training, and work on rhythms and things. Some days I'll bring one of my jazz albums and we'll kind of analyze it - intervals, rhythms, and so forth. Right now both of them are still at a basic level (they are both 7th graders), but they, as well as I, are learning a lot very quickly. I'm hoping to soon get into jazz theory and composition and fun things like that with them.

So the bottom line is, if you want to quickly broaden your knowledge of something, teach it to someone, no matter what it is.

Yep I agree share "n " share alike I say I mean what use is it if you have all this knowledge and you take it to the grave with you.
I too am in that category of teaching students that want to learn theory or music in general and yes you learn as much as they do when you are teaching
But remeber they ( students ) will also judge you on your performances or credits ( gig'd with so n so ... etc ) I mean reputation does have a advantage which will make teaching them that much easier then as if you taught them from scratch but one way is to get their trust by teaching them in a way that they understand and therefore there progress will show

[tgadrummer]

And, as you probably know, the 3rd is what creates a Major or Minor sound (without a 3rd the chord is called 'sustain,' or sus).


good lesson, but "sus" in the context of chord names stands for "suspended," not sustained.

[spastic]

Hey Spastic, great job with the thread thought some of it is a little bit out of my reach. Just some questions about you for a change,at what age did you start musical theory training and who/where did you learn from? Because, well, its impressive for a 14 y/o to know all of this.

I am 16 now, and started music theory when I was 13 (right when I started guitar), but I didn't really get into theory until 14.

[spastic]

good lesson, but "sus" in the context of chord names stands for "suspended," not sustained.


Yeah that was a mistake I made in there. It was a while ago, and I know my error now. But it's not big enough of a mistake for me to go back and edit it.

[superman2]

hello, im a mediocre bass player who's trying to play jazz.

people told me you'll get nowhere near to jazz without knowing theory so since a few months ago i've been reading stuffs on scales etc...

and now im fed up of going "so fcuking what?" everytime i read something about theories.

and luckily enough, i found this place and found this (written by spastic)

If you are playing over a (blank), you could use a (blank scale) [NOTE: I am not going to list every scale that you could use, only one example]:

C Maj7 - C Ionian

Because C Maj7 contains these tones: Root (1), 3, 5, 7. The Ionian scale contains 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

E Min7 - E Dorian

Because E Min7 contains these tones: Root (1), b3, 5, b7. The Dorian scale contains 1, 2, b3, 4, b5, 6, b7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

A Min7 b5 - A Locrian

Because A Min7 b5 contains these tones: Root (1), b3, b5, b7. The Locrian scale contains 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord.

G Min (Maj7) - G Melodic Minor

Because G Min (Maj7) contains these tones: Root (1), b3, 5, 7. The Melodic Minor scale contains 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Since these match up, and there is no conflicting tones, this scale will sound good with this chord. Notice that this scale is not in the Major scale. Be aware that not all the scales you will use will come from the Major scale.
and i'd like to ask one question, does this same thing apply to writing walking bass lines? (and moreover bass solos?)

a few days ago, i started jamming with this crazy jazz pianist and i couldn't do anything. i badly need to know how to write basic walking bass lines for chords.

[spastic]

Yeah, that also applies to walking bass lines. Walking basslines are kinda like constant quarter note solos.

[superman2]

actually, a few years ago this dude showed me on piano, how to "jazzify" chords. for example, let's say there's a chord progression that goes like C - F - C - G which doesnt sound like jazz at all. so he tranformed those into some weird chords and added some extra chords inbetween and it started to sound real jazzy.

how do you do this? what did he do? what are the rules?

[Bryan Blakey]

Probably added the flat 7th to each chord (C7, F7, C7, G7... blues progression), and maybe an Edim7 (IIIdim7) before the F7, and a G9 (V9) at the very end before resolving to the root C7. There's a ton of things you can do, that's just a few things I like to add when playing a blues on piano. I gave the roman numeral things in case you wanted to figure it out in a different key.

[superman2]

Probably added the flat 7th to each chord (C7, F7, C7, G7... blues progression), and maybe an Edim7 (IIIdim7) before the F7, and a G9 (V9) at the very end before resolving to the root C7. There's a ton of things you can do, that's just a few things I like to add when playing a blues on piano. I gave the roman numeral things in case you wanted to figure it out in a different key.

yeah thanks but the progression i wrote was just an example.

i wanted to know the theory of the "tons of things you can do".

you know, like teach me how to fish instead of giving me fish.

sorry my words are pretty vague, i cant express myself very well.

[Jace The Bass]

yeah thanks but the progression i wrote was just an example.

i wanted to know the theory of the "tons of things you can do".

you know, like teach me how to fish instead of giving me fish.

sorry my words are pretty vague, i cant express myself very well.

Ok let's see "Än understanding of Soloing" yeah don't we all Soloing is about HEARING and about playing what you hear with enough clarity that everybody else hears it too.
So it's not just "understanding" it's understanding and conception and aural conception and physical approach all wrapped up. You don't have to remember the whole dictionary to in order to have a conversation right? Playing music is like that , What is important is conveying MEANING , in this case what you are hearing. The Larger your working vocabulary the more specificity you have in your language and what you are trying to say but the vocabulary isn't driving the idea , your INTENT is.
What you are looking for is not more bullets but need to work Improving your AIM so Learn theory concurently with ear training concurently with exercises to familarize yourself with the fretboard concurently with exercises to get harmony in your ears that's what you need to work on to improve your aim ,
This goes with playing chords as well .

[spastic]

yeah thanks but the progression i wrote was just an example.

i wanted to know the theory of the "tons of things you can do".

you know, like teach me how to fish instead of giving me fish.

sorry my words are pretty vague, i cant express myself very well.


I think what you want to understand is reharmonization.

Sorry I don't have time to write up a complete overview of this, but here's a start. I'll try to write up a better one later.

Here are some ideas to try out:

-Adding a V chord
Almost any chord can be preceded by it's V chord. For instance, in that progression when you go from C to F, you could change it to C - C7 - F.

You can also precede a V chord with a II chord. That progression would then be changed to C - Gmin7 - C7 - F

-Tritone Substitution
Almost any V chord can be replace with another V chord a tritone away. There was a good thread a while back on this.

And because a V chord can be preceded by a II chord, the entire II-V can be moved a tritone. So your progression could be something like:

C - Gmin7 C7 -- F - C#7 -- C - D#min7 G#7 -- G - G#min7 C#7 --

-Chromatic II-V movement
A II-V can be preceded by another II-V a half step up. Example:

C - Gmin7 C7 -- F - C#7 -- C - G#7 -- Amin7 D7 G#min7 C#7

-Adding color tones
Almost any chord, especially dominant chords, can sound much more jazzy when you add alterations to them.

Also, I highly suggest that whenever you are playing a Maj triad, to replace that with a Maj6 or a Maj6/9. It is much more interesting, but still keeps the same basic tonality.


Well, that might be a bit unclear, but I hope it helps.

[Soulfly666]

That is a bit unclear at first, but after some careful reading it all makes sense.:)

[Soulfly666]

This might be kind of a stupid question, but when one decides to use tritone substitution, is it ok if only one person does it, or does the whole progression in general have to change?

For instance, if the chord progression is let's say C7 - Bb7 - Emin7 - A7 would it be ok if only I played C7 - E7 - A#min7 - A7, or does the whole progression change, meaning everyone plays that?

[spastic]

It doesn't matter.

If only the soloist plays it, there will be tension, but that is usually a good thing if you play convincingly over the changes (in other words, your solo is clearly a tritone away from the rest of the band, and you resolve clearly to the one chord).

If the entire band follows, you'll lose the tension that is built in to the sub, but it will sound good anyways. Also, just moving chords can have an interesting sound; even if there isn't any 'internal' tension ('internal' meaning between members of the band, I don't know if there's a real term for this, I just made it up), there is tension between the chords that are expected and what is actually played.

[spastic]

NOTE: Usually the band members that are comping shouldn't go out unless they are trying to follow the soloist. If the soloist isn't playing a tritone sub, usually you shouldn't comp one. It might throw off the soloist, and they probably wouldn't be able to hear your changes and react to it well.

[Soulfly666]

Ahh, ok. Cool, that really helped a lot.:)

Thanks

[chrono_t88]

Alright, so we've covered tritone substitution, i know coltrane changes, we've (apparently "briefly") done reharmonization. All of which are things used nearly exclusively in jazz.

I have a solid understanding of scales and intervals and modes and all the rest of that begginer stuff, but i still feel i need more exclusive jazz theory, such as something in the vein of those things i mentioned in the first paragraph. Any suggestions would be fantastic.
Peace

[kfur]

Visit http://www.soulfulsmoothjazz.com

[starless and bible black]

**** off.

smooth jazz??? Don't you mean 'meaningless ****e'?

[OnePartHarmony]

Gah! Jazz guitar hurts my head...I can't change chords that fast. I can with with major or minor chords, but when all those variations get thrown in, my head explodes.

[Tillmon]

**** off.

smooth jazz??? Don't you mean 'meaningless ****e'?

Could you have any more of a closed mind?

[starless and bible black]

It was a spam post, you retarded Kenny G fan.

[Tillmon]

I actually am not a fan of smooth jazz, but I wouldn't call it meaningless.

[dawnofthedead320]

arabian nites, arabina moons, funny guys

[Pesky]

Alright, so we've covered tritone substitution, i know coltrane changes, we've (apparently "briefly") done reharmonization. All of which are things used nearly exclusively in jazz.

I have a solid understanding of scales and intervals and modes and all the rest of that begginer stuff, but i still feel i need more exclusive jazz theory, such as something in the vein of those things i mentioned in the first paragraph. Any suggestions would be fantastic.
Peace

I think at some point one has to apply theory to specific tunes. Say, you look at a standard and analyze the chord progression and melody, and then apply your theoretical concepts to it and see where it goes.

I am a novice myself, but I find that the theory doesn't always make sense until I see it in action, then suddenly I can hear it.

An example would be "girl from ipanema" - you have a chord progression that prominently features the bII and the bV chord....

there's a chart here http://www.songtrellis.com/picture$849

Anyway, a bII and bV seem like odd chords to me, and yet if you remember tritone substitution, a bII is the tritone of the V, and a bV is the tritone of the I. So, you can look at the progression again seeing a V where you saw bII, and a dominant I chord where you saw bV. Play it through this way, and you hear basically the same tune, but less sophisticated harmonically. This for me is a great lesson in how to use a tritone substitution compositionally to make a song more interesting and unique.

Another example would be the melodic minor. I could play the scale and the modes, but I didn't hear the music. Then I put on Miles Davis in the 50s, and I realized that the unique melodies I was hearing were based in many cases on melodic minor modes, such as the second mode (b2, b3, b7) or fifth mode (b6, b7) and the harmonizations thereof. Now I have a better sense of what I am going to get when I go to a melodic minor mode or the chords derived from it, and I was able to put together my own piece and give it a cool sound, utilizing the 3rd and 5th melodic minor modes. As a side effect I started hearing diatonic playing as sounding really lame, but whatever, you got to break some eggs.

Sorry if this is not helpful, I'm new here. I'm just saying that theory and practice have to go together. Jazz is a combination of music theory and real songs, you have to take pieces that you like and analyze them as closely as you can, and play them over and over while applying the information from theory.

[wbuggey]

Blue In Green

I am doing a project on the differences between Miles Davies' Kind Of Blue version of Blue In Green and the Bill Evans Trio versions. Any theoretical pointers would appreciated.

Thank you,

Will.

[Bryan Blakey]

Interesting, I didn't know the Bill Evans trio did a version, I'll have to check it out.

[Pesky]

Interesting, I didn't know the Bill Evans trio did a version, I'll have to check it out.

I checked at the store, but couldn't find a version. Did the teacher ever say what record it's on?

[superman2]

hey spastic, a long time ago you told me the basic way of how to solo on a chord and it helped me a lot on making my walking basslines and now i'm ready to and would like to know how to solo over a chord progression, not just one single chord. help here. thanks.

[Kaden]

Interesting, I didn't know the Bill Evans trio did a version, I'll have to check it out.
I'm pretty sure they did it originally, and the Miles Davis version is a cover.

[Bryan Blakey]

I'm pretty sure they did it originally, and the Miles Davis version is a cover.

I know Bill Evans wrote it, but I searched and couldn't find any albums with Blue in Green on it before 1959 (Kind of Blue recording date). Maybe his trio just never recorded it before then.

[Metalshark666]

if you want a really cool arabic sound, try this scale, i don't know what it's technical name is, i've only heard it called the Byzantine Scale:

1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7 8

basically a harmonic minor scale with a flat 2 and a sharp 3.

I believe that's the Persian scale.

[mshort813]

I believe that's the Persian scale.
No, he's right, its the byzantine. I've never heard it called the Persian scale but maybe.