Official Jazz Theory Thread

[Tarquin1986]

Sounds like you need ear training, and also to familiarise yourself with the progression. Just play the chords and sing an improvised melody over it. You got to be good at this before you can improvise good stuff on an instrument. I mean you don't need to be able to sing well but the ideas should fit y'know. Then you got to know what intervals sound like so that anything you imagine you can play without any trial and error.

[Joseph India]

smith

wow thanks a lot, i really appreciate the help. if you were wodnering, i recorded it and just soloed in Bb like u said, the recording is here: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=589302

is it wrong to not think too hard about the notes im playing whilst playing them? when i recorded this i just felt out the notes, and screwed up a bit but i think it turned out alright. i dont really know the notes that well at the moment, i just sort of know to emphasize the 7's and b7 when its applied and whatnot. so am i going in the wrong direction with this improv?
I'm not sure how to answer this...
You should think about the notes ,and you should also think in intervals.
Like Tarquin said, you should play what's in your head. That is most important. Do what he said.

I didn't mean just play in Bb as if there were no changes at all. Just let your ideas flow more. For example: if you are just playing in Bb with no though of the changes, you might resolve a phrase on the tonic while the dominant (F7) chord is played, and that just doesn't fit. If you follow the changes and play what you hear in your mind, you would never think to resolve over a dominant like this.
Does that make sense?
Also, you dont want to get into a mindset/habit where you do something like hitting the 7ths a lot to get a certain effect. If you do that, you're not playing what sounds right in your head, but rather what looks right.
That being said, your recording was okay. Your rhythm shows promise.

[Eliminator]

Minor 2nd – 1 and b2

I love this combination.

[along]

Here it is, folks: The OFFICIAL Jazz theory thread :D

This thread is for anything related to jazz theory, but DON'T post it elsewhere. Any questions you have go in here, and if you just want to add some info on it, it also goes in here. Have fun. . .okey::chug:

[rockstar18]

been gettin in2 mahavishnu orchestra rocks so much!!!!

[dolphin]

Yo guys, this cool site I found has some good links to theory websites and materials: www.modaljazz.com

Dolphin

[PERFECTXDARK]

I cant wait to read this tomorrow its way to late to play my Bass becuase its around 12:30 am on a tuesday lol

[superjoe]

Check this site out:

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory44.htm

Its basically the entire lesson for an online jazz course or someting. Looks very thorough.

[Pete Down I Go]

Damn there's a lot of writing in this thread!

In my experience, it's really important to get your scales down, but at the end of the day, on the bandstand, it's your ear that's going to guide you.

Personally, I find it really useful to draw a BIG distinction between approaches to playing in practise and playing onstage: Practise is all about enlarging your vocabulary and playing is all about not thinking about that stuff: if it's in your language, it'll come out on its own.

In short, it's often really unconvincing to impose pre prepared harmonic or rhythmic features in a solo as opposed to simply following your ear.

The best analogy I can think of for this is if you learn a long word and try to use it to sound clever: everyone will know you're doing it, and you're fairly likely to use the word in an unneccesary context where you could have used something more concise and understandable HOWEVER, if that word sits comfortably in your vocabulary, it'll come out when it's needed and sound perfectly at home within the phrase without a second thought or a concious decision to use it.

Sunstitute 'long word' for 'harmonic or rhythmic technique' (yucky term though it is) and you come to how I think about my playing.

Sorry if I've covered repetitive ground here, I just skim read the thread.

[~kc~]

Damn there's a lot of writing in this thread!

In my experience, it's really important to get your scales down, but at the end of the day, on the bandstand, it's your ear that's going to guide you.

Personally, I find it really useful to draw a BIG distinction between approaches to playing in practise and playing onstage: Practise is all about enlarging your vocabulary and playing is all about not thinking about that stuff: if it's in your language, it'll come out on its own.

In short, it's often really unconvincing to impose pre prepared harmonic or rhythmic features in a solo as opposed to simply following your ear.

The best analogy I can think of for this is if you learn a long word and try to use it to sound clever: everyone will know you're doing it, and you're fairly likely to use the word in an unneccesary context where you could have used something more concise and understandable HOWEVER, if that word sits comfortably in your vocabulary, it'll come out when it's needed and sound perfectly at home within the phrase without a second thought or a concious decision to use it.

Sunstitute 'long word' for 'harmonic or rhythmic technique' (yucky term though it is) and you come to how I think about my playing.

Sorry if I've covered repetitive ground here, I just skim read the thread.

really nice post man, thats exactly how i feel.

my guitar teacher has always said "you can learn and learn and learn but when it comes down to it you just gotta throw it all out the window and feel it"

[Atica]

Do you know about any good jazz guitar book? I already know about scales, modes, arpegios, etc. I have an intermediate level, but I play metal and i also want to learn how to play jazz. Thanks

[mrcarter]

Damn there's a lot of writing in this thread!

In my experience, it's really important to get your scales down, but at the end of the day, on the bandstand, it's your ear that's going to guide you.

Personally, I find it really useful to draw a BIG distinction between approaches to playing in practise and playing onstage: Practise is all about enlarging your vocabulary and playing is all about not thinking about that stuff: if it's in your language, it'll come out on its own.

In short, it's often really unconvincing to impose pre prepared harmonic or rhythmic features in a solo as opposed to simply following your ear.

The best analogy I can think of for this is if you learn a long word and try to use it to sound clever: everyone will know you're doing it, and you're fairly likely to use the word in an unneccesary context where you could have used something more concise and understandable HOWEVER, if that word sits comfortably in your vocabulary, it'll come out when it's needed and sound perfectly at home within the phrase without a second thought or a concious decision to use it.

Sunstitute 'long word' for 'harmonic or rhythmic technique' (yucky term though it is) and you come to how I think about my playing.

Sorry if I've covered repetitive ground here, I just skim read the thread.

Amen.
It's so important to learn your modes and cop licks from people. But you can't depend on them or it sounds like someone running a bunch of scales.
Learn it all - but don't depend on it.

[yontar]

Amen.
It's so important to learn your modes and cop licks from people. But you can't depend on them or it sounds like someone running a bunch of scales.
Learn it all - but don't depend on it.

i think learning basic chord theory is more important than learning modes. so many musicians don't know a M7 from an m7

[mrcarter]

i think learning basic chord theory is more important than learning modes. so many musicians don't know a M7 from an m7

Those chords are derrived from the modes

[andymonroe23]

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[EADGC]

Those chords are derrived from the modes

They can be but that's just one way to look at it, you can think of it as every other note of a mode

D E F G A B C - D F A C
dorian - m7


or a major scale with diatonic thirds stacked on top.

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


note the symmetrical patterns..

[EADGC]

and the 7th chords

1: Min(Maj7)
2: Min7
3: Maj7#5
4: 7 #11 (Dominant)
5: 7 b13 (Dominant)
6: Min7 b5
7: Min7 b5

however, the 7th degree is better characterized as a dominant 7 with every possible tension (b9 #9 #11 b13). Also known as the altered scale, so whenever you see something like G7alt. it is referring to this scale.

Also b5 and #5, although some would argue those are enharmonic equivalents.

nitpicky..

[mrcarter]

They can be but that's just one way to look at it, you can think of it as every other note of a mode

D E F G A B C - D F A C
dorian - m7


or a major scale with diatonic thirds stacked on top.

B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


note the symmetrical patterns..

ahah man
that's what I said

[EADGC]

ahah man
that's what I said

Yes but you don't need to use or even understand the diatonic modes at all to build chords. Although it is a totally valid way to look at it.

[0m3ga0n3]

I'm horrible at improvisation. I play Trumpet. Suggestions?

[Kucinichism]

I'm horrible at improvisation. I play Trumpet. Suggestions?

Learn your scales and play around them for a month, only playing scales and improvising. The only way to improve your improvisation is to learn theory (so that you have a basis of what works and what you should never do), and to improvise non-stop. Think about what you're playing though, don't just subconsciously play the same notes/rhythmic patterns ad infinitum.

[snorfledumpkins]

I have a lick that kind of just goes two measures of Dorian and then two measures of Phrygian, any idea what chords i should put under it? I don't want to just kind of follow the melody exactly, i always feel like that sounds reduntant, any suggestions?

EDIT: Just remembered another thing i need help with. On a different song, the main chords are played B minor D major C# -7b5 F# 7

played in 7/8, any ideas for melodies? I can once again only think of things that follow the chords exactly, maybe ideas for the rhythm or phrasing of the melody, I'm completely unoriginal :(

[SgtBaker]

why is this stickied?

[Stig Caraveo]

Why the **** is this stickied?

[SgtBaker]

its too gatdamn sticky up in this bitch

[embouchuregirl]

how do substitutions work?

i always here jazzers talking about that.

[crazzycat]

how do you think could anyone today play really good jazz music?
____________________
www.yourattorneysearch.com huge fan=)

[Dougie]

Any a fan of Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Orchestra? Played some 'Us,' at a jazz club the other day, they loved, but never heard of him before, I was shocked!

[Wettstein]

how do substitutions work?

i always here jazzers talking about that.

Well, opening the doors to chord subs will lead you on a huge journey. Substitutions work by replacing the implied harmony with something new (yet that works with the melody). Most of the time, these chords will share some of the same notes as the chords before, but will have others that imply a new, interesting sound.

For example:

Tritone Substitutions: Lets say you are playing over a basic IIm, V7, I. In C, it'd look something like, Dmin7 G7 Cmaj7. Well, the dominant chord (V) spelled out would be "G B D F." If we decide to substitute that chord with a dominant based on its tritone (C#/Db), we'd get "C# F G# B." I'd like to draw your attention to the guide tones (3rds/7ths). Notice that, C#7 has the exact same guide tones as G7, the only difference being that they switched places (3-7, 7-3). Therefore, we could play the same progression, but sub in this chord for the G7 - giving a nice chromatic movement to the bassline.

Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 => Dm7, C#7, Cmaj7

Of course, the same can be done with almost anything, you just need to try everything that comes to mind, and hear what works. However, it is good to consider the root movement of your substitutions (random illogical progressions that work with the melody will indeed sound random. Therefore, substitutions are best used in areas that will enhance the piece, and not just to be 'out there')

[mathos78]

Hi All of you,
( sorry for my english)

I would like to have some help for tune analysis.
The tune is called "Sunshine Song" ( Keith Jarrett from "Nude Ants")
In fact, i'm working to find the different tonal centers and the modulation trough the tune.
I' can't find what's happend in the middle of that song..Some chords progressions which are too complex to understand to me.
Somebody could have any idea about it ?

( I'cant publish any sounds or any score of that tune because there are copyrighted, but here is the basic chord progression)

| Gmi7 ___ | C7 ___ | Fmaj7 Cmi7| Bmi7b5 ___|

| Bmi7b5 E7 | Ami7 D7 | Eb/Db ___ | Gmi7b5 C7 |

| Bbmi7 Eb7 | Ami7 D7 | Abmi7 ___ | Db7 ___ |

| F#mi7b5 __| B7 ___ | Bb7sus ___| Eb7 ___ |

| Abmaj7 Ami| Ami7 D7 | Gmaj7 ___ | C#mi7 ___ |

| F#7 ____ | Bmi7 ___ | Bmi7 ____ | C7 D7 |




And here is the way that i would find different tonal centers.



_F maj______________________| G maj ______

| Gmi7 ___ | C7 ___ | Fmaj7 Cmi7| Bmi7b5 ___|


_________________ ??? _______ ??? ______
| Bmi7b5 E7 | Ami7 D7 | Eb/Db ___ | Gmi7b5 C7 |


_???_______???______???_________________
| Bbmi7 Eb7 | Ami7 D7 | Abmi7 ___ | Db7 ___ |


_???______________| Ab maj _____________
| F#mi7b5 __| B7 ___ | Bb7sus ___| Eb7 ___ |


_______| G maj _______________| Bmin ______
| Abmaj7 Ami| Ami7 D7 | Gmaj7 ___ | C#mi7 ___ |


____________________________| G min _____
| F#7 ____ | Bmi7 ___ | Bmi7 ____ | C7 D7 |



Thanks you for your help...

[crazzycat]

I like Room Eleven sound

[MartinB]

Hello,
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Link to the article about 14 best online jazz radios: http://fr.ee/article/14-free-online-streaming-jazz-radios

Link to where from you can find lessons to learn jazz music for free and online: http://fr.ee/article/free-jazz-music-lessons-for-different-jazz-instruments

All the best

Martin

[MartinB]

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I wish you all the best!

Martin