Official Jazz Theory Thread

[Pesky]

I was working on tritone substitution just now and had a thought. The Tritone Substitution is when you substitute a dominant chord with the dominant chord a tritone away, i.e. substitute #F7 for C7. It works on the principal that the tritone between E and bB is present in both chords. Now, that it very useful, but I was thinking that that interval is present in other chords, so are they also possible tritone substitutions for C7?

The obvious example is the m7b5 chord - it has a tritone between the root and the b5. So Em7b5 and bBm7b5 will also contain the E / bB tritone from the C7 that is being substituted. Of course that's true of any E or bB chord with a b5 as well. This includes the diminished chord, as it has a flat five. Since E dim is the same notes as bB, bD, and G dim, they also all contain this tritone.

Moving on from there, a suspended chord with a major 7 contains a tritone between the 4th and 7th, so B sus Major 7 and F sus Major 7 also contain the E/bB tritone.

Obviously many other chords can be constructed that contain this tritone - 7b9 chords have a tritone between the 5th and b9, so bE7b9 and A7b9, and a minor chord with a natural 6 has this tritone as well.

I ended up with quite a list of chords that had the E/bB tritone, and a lot of them sound quite entertaining, esp. the quartal suspended major 7 chords, the diminished chords, and the 7b9. Does anyone know any resource that delves into this area of tritone substitutions or have a view they've developed on it? It's very interesting to me and I was hearing some nice sounds, but it's also a bit overwhelming to think of it this way.

[spastic]

While some (or all, I didn't really look into them, I just know off the top of my head that some of them like the 7b9 subs work well (note: you can also move them around by minor 3rds)) of the subs you listed work, they aren't directed related to tritone substitution. Tritone subsitution is based on the fact that the 3rd and the 7th chord tones of a dominant chord are the same notes as the 3rd and the 7th or a dominant chord a tritone away. The name comes from moving the chord a tritone away. The 3rd and 7th are important because they define the chord. However, chord tones such as the root and the 5th are not that important. While you can make those subs you listed, they aren't based on tritone substitution.

[Pesky]

. While you can make those subs you listed, they aren't based on tritone substitution.

well, you could rewrite them all as alterations of an #F7 if it would make it more palatable. thanks for response.

[xhaereticusx]

It's just basing your subs on two notes. Think of how many chords have two of the same notes as another. The reason the Tritone works so well is because the 3 and 7 define the chord. You can play just the 3 and 7 and it will still sound like the chord. The chord a tritone away also has the same 3 and 7 just switched so it's almost like adding tensions to the same chord once you put the root and or 5th on.

[Brokensticks]

In my oppinion Jazz is mostly the same stuff and i dont really like it

[xhaereticusx]

In my oppinion Jazz is mostly the same stuff and i dont really like it
Ok, thanks.

Why did you A. post this at all, and B. post this in jazz theory?

[ejf721]

In my oppinion Jazz is mostly the same stuff and i dont really like it
It is amazing how little you know about music.

[black\m/metal]

do you guys think II/V/I's are the most important thing to know in jazz?

[Tillmon]

No.

[xhaereticusx]

I'd have to agree with blakey, they are important but basic theory is probably more important.

[mshort813]

In my oppinion Jazz is mostly the same stuff and i dont really like it
oh awesome, stfu idiot.

[spastic]

I'd have to agree with blakey, they are important but basic theory is probably more important.


But let's put it this way, if you can't play over a II-V-I you might as well not play jazz.

[xhaereticusx]

Or learn how to.

[spastic]

Well yeah, that too

[AmericanWeiner]

But let's put it this way, if you can't play over a II-V-I you might as well not play jazz.

:upset: I feel like a total n00b after just setting foot in this thread.

I really want to be a jazz guitarist. I've been playing for two years and jazz is the music I hear in my head. I've got a basic knowledge of scales (major, minor, pentatonic minor, blues, chromatic) and chords (too many to name...I know a couple different shapes for most of the extended 7 chords). I know a few basic progressions, but I'm not very good at putting it all together.

I can't really afford a teacher right now, but I'm going to get one as soon as I can (or maybe take some classes at the local college). For now though, what do I need to be working on?

[spastic]

Well just so I don't give the wrong message to aspiring jazz musicians:

What I meant by my post was "If you aren't willing to learn how to play over a II-V-I, you shouldn't be playing jazz." Every jazz musician couldn't play over a II-V-I at one point; you're no different.

I'd try to help you out, but I don't have enough time/my brain isn't functioning very well at the moment.

[kyle-the-used]

jazz guitar is very cool

[ejf721]

:upset: I feel like a total n00b after just setting foot in this thread.

I really want to be a jazz guitarist. I've been playing for two years and jazz is the music I hear in my head. I've got a basic knowledge of scales (major, minor, pentatonic minor, blues, chromatic) and chords (too many to name...I know a couple different shapes for most of the extended 7 chords). I know a few basic progressions, but I'm not very good at putting it all together.

I can't really afford a teacher right now, but I'm going to get one as soon as I can (or maybe take some classes at the local college). For now though, what do I need to be working on?


You should learn how to read music. You should also learn all 7 modes so you can play along with chord changes. I recommend you to buy this book call "A Modern Method For Guitar" Volume 1 its a really good book for learning how to read and learning new chord forms. I didn't have a teacher until I was playing for two years and a lot of the stuff you need to learn is on the internet all you need to do is do a search on google or look at the forums on mxtabs.net.

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

I know Bill Evans wrote it, but I searched and couldn't find any albums with Blue in Green on it before 1959 (Kind of Blue recording date). Maybe his trio just never recorded it before then.

Bill Evans Trio - Portrait in Jazz - Has two takes of Blue in Green...i'm not sure who wrote it; although it says that Miles wrote it (in the real book), it also claims that Evans at the very least, co-wrote it. I'd recommend getting the album, even if you didn't need the Blue in Green track. Two great takes of Autumn Leaves there.

[Tillmon]

If you take a look at the Kind of Blue liner notes, on the page that lists the tracks, it lists them all and says "All compositions by Miles Davis" or something to that effect.

[owlz r fun 4 every1]

jazz is for people with little weiners

[xhaereticusx]

jazz is for people with little weiners
Dude, you're completely right. I'm going to stop listening and playing jazz from now on.

I fail to realize what people think they are going to accomplish by posting things like that.

[Tillmon]

jazz is for people with little weiners

Jazz is and was predominantly made up of black musicians. Enough said.

[AmericanWeiner]

http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/mapAb.htm

Someone wanna explain how do comprehend that to me?

[xhaereticusx]

http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/mapAb.htm

Someone wanna explain how do comprehend that to me?
It's a chart saying how chords relate to the key of Ab. Or more, which chords resolve best to each other chord.

For instance the Eb7 to Abmaj is one of the strongest resolutions. I'm guessing the larger they are the stronger they are.

[spastic]

Although I've never seen a "chord chart' written that way, and it's probably overly complicated. So if you look at that and say to yourself "wtf" don't worry.

[dragonzmad]

Although I've never seen a "chord chart' written that way, and it's probably overly complicated. So if you look at that and say to yourself "wtf" don't worry.


this is an amazing post and to think that a lot of you are 15 years old.. I wish I would have started with the bass and not the drums. I'd have a lot of this theory stuff down pack.


But i had a non-theory question. Are there any classes available at city colleges? I don't want to major in music so I just wanted to take some classes on the side to improve my bass playing and of course dive into jazz

[AmericanWeiner]

this is an amazing post and to think that a lot of you are 15 years old.. I wish I would have started with the bass and not the drums. I'd have a lot of this theory stuff down pack.


But i had a non-theory question. Are there any classes available at city colleges? I don't want to major in music so I just wanted to take some classes on the side to improve my bass playing and of course dive into jazz

I think this question is best answered by telling you to check into it yourself.

I know my local community college has a jazz band and classical guitar courses, though.

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

Okay, I know lots of theory, and am just having trouble improvising melodically. I understand tritone sub., altered chords + scales, other substitutions, modal playing, tonal centers, chromaticism, etc...

But I find it really hard to phrase well. Do you guys have any special tips for motivic and melodic phrasing, besides listening to others?

Thanks, any answers would be really helpful..

[dragonzmad]

what scales (for bass) or notes are most often associated in funk\(maroon 5) type songs. I've observed that the 7th (usually minor) and 5th can be a big part as well as the octave but are those all?

[HaVIC5]

First, if you're considering Maroon 5 to be funk, then you're deeply misguided my friend.

Second, you're pretty much good to start off with the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale, but the Dorian mode is used heavily in funk, since the major 6 adds a nice bit of tritone tension with the minor third.

[HaVIC5]

Okay, I know lots of theory, and am just having trouble improvising melodically. I understand tritone sub., altered chords + scales, other substitutions, modal playing, tonal centers, chromaticism, etc...

But I find it really hard to phrase well. Do you guys have any special tips for motivic and melodic phrasing, besides listening to others?

Thanks, any answers would be really helpful..
Sing along with what you're playing. No joke, this works, it forces you to keep your phrases within a managable length, and also to keep them simple. They will end up sounding so much better.

[OutOfPhase69]

Spastic, you are the man! I'm 15 and thanks to your eloquent explanations I've actually been able to expand my playing beyond pentatonic blues and simple tapping shapes. As for that jackass and his infamous post on your 'pretentious' recordings... :lol:

Just wondering...anybody have any opinion on what is best to use for a sexy/sultry kind of sound? Yeah, that's half the vibe given off by jazz, but I just can't seem to capture it and I was wondering if any particular modes give off that kind of feel. :confused:

[dragonzmad]

First, if you're considering Maroon 5 to be funk, then you're deeply misguided my friend.

Second, you're pretty much good to start off with the blues scale/minor pentatonic scale, but the Dorian mode is used heavily in funk, since the major 6 adds a nice bit of tritone tension with the minor third.


haha. no i dont consider maroon 5 to be funk. I should have said " maroon 5 type songs and funk songs"

[pianoplyr77]

Whenever I try to voice a minor 7 chord with the third and the seventh in my left hand and the 1 and the 5 in my right, it sounds like an Eb6. I understand that the bass fills in the 1, but for solo purpases is playing the 1 and the 5 in the right and the 3 and the 7 in the right hand the best way to voice?

[joas]

I thought with jazz piano you used mainly the third and seventh, and dropped the root because the bass handles it?

That's what I've been told at least. You could always add on your own extensions, of course, to give it life. But, the third and seventh in the right is correct (I believe), and drop the root. Anyone who thinks I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. :p :)

[pianoplyr77]

Alright thank you, thats what I thought.

[PeterBudd]

It seems that you must be schooled? I have been playing jazz for 45 years. I never have time to think of what scale to play over which chord. You can learn all the theory you want, but it won't help you play jazz. Most of the guitarists that I know or knew. Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Howard roberts all played from feel. The best way is to take one model scale. The dorian scale is probably the best scale to use. Try playing the a dorian against the following chords. Ami7 D7 Gma7, and you will be suprised what you can come up with. playing the G scale starting with A is the dorian for those not familier with scales. Learn other peoples solos is one of the best way to learn jazz.

[H<<<<<<<<GUILDS>>>]

THIS SITE ****ING SUCKS POO. COME TO http://www.fohguild.org/forums/index.php IF YOU WANT TO SEE A DECENT FORUM!!! By the way, It takes a surreal (http://members.bellatlantic.net/~talyrand/) scribble to envision a surreal (http://members.bellatlantic.net/~talyrand/) scribble, that's why I chose you.

[pianoplyr77]

sorry not even close.

[pianoplyr77]

gosh this thread is almost dead.

anyone know what happened to spastic?

[spastic]

I come and go.

[ledzep66]

Spastic:

Can you explain secondary dominants?

thanks

[pianoplyr77]

I come and go.

what are you doing now?

[spastic]

Spastic:

Can you explain secondary dominants?

thanks

Secondary dominants are dominant chords that don't resolve to the tonic, but another chord in the scale. In the progression G7 - Cmaj7, the G7 is just a normal dominant chord. However, you can add a secondary dominant chord to make it D7 - G7 - Cmaj7. The D7 acts as the V7 chord of the G7; however, the G7 is not acting as a tonic chord.

Usually secondary dominant chords are used as a V chord of other dominant chords, but in practice any dominant chord that resolve to a chord besides the tonic is a secondary dominant chord. In this progression: A7 - Dmin7 - G7 - Cmaj7, the A7 is a secondary dominant chord.

(By the way "secondary dominant" isn't a commonly used term (at least I rarely have heard it). However, the concept behind that term is often used and makes for much more interesting progressions)


what are you doing now?

Not much, just finishing sophomore year of high school. Once school is over, I'll be able to focus much more on music. This summer I'm taking the 5 week performance course at Berklee, hopefully that will be a good experience.

[ledzep66]

Thanks, that made perfect sense.

[superman2]

Hello I'm a theory newbie and I found something contradictory to what I've learnt and I hope someone has an easy and clear answer for this:

I wanted to know why minor pentatonic sounds better with 7th chords rather than major pentatonic.

Let's say I'm soloing over a C7 which is C, E, G, Bb

Cmin pentatonic is C Eb F G Bb C
Cmaj pentatonic is C D E G A C

In Cmin, Eb falls out whilst Cmaj matches C7 perfectly. (I don't know how to put this down in words, but I guess you get what I mean) So according to what I've learnt, it makes more sense that Cmaj pentatonic sound better over C7 than Cmin pentatonic. But in reality it's not it.

So, WHY?!

[pianoplyr77]

Step outside of all of the complicated jazz theory for a second. When soloing, you shouldn't always be thinking, "what scale should I play over this chord"

A C7, as you said, contains the notes C E G Bb, so obviously any of those notes would sound good over a C7. Neither the Cmin pentatonic or Cmaj pentatonic follows those specifications. The Cmaj pentatonic works, but is not going to sound as good. Maybe you arent looking for either of those pentatonic scales. I would suggest a C blues scale.
A Cmin7 has the notes C Eb G Bb, that is where you would play the Cmin pentatonic. You are correct that the Cmin pentatonic scale does not sound good over a C7, because the E from the C7 clashes with the Eb from the Pentatonic scale. A Cmaj7 is where the Cmaj pentatonic scale would work best. adding a B to the Cmaj pentatonic would sound nice too.

Hope that helped!

[superman2]

Step outside of all of the complicated jazz theory for a second. When soloing, you shouldn't always be thinking, "what scale should I play over this chord"

A C7, as you said, contains the notes C E G Bb, so obviously any of those notes would sound good over a C7. Neither the Cmin pentatonic or Cmaj pentatonic follows those specifications. The Cmaj pentatonic works, but is not going to sound as good. Maybe you arent looking for either of those pentatonic scales. I would suggest a C blues scale.
A Cmin7 has the notes C Eb G Bb, that is where you would play the Cmin pentatonic. You are correct that the Cmin pentatonic scale does not sound good over a C7, because the E from the C7 clashes with the Eb from the Pentatonic scale. A Cmaj7 is where the Cmaj pentatonic scale would work best. adding a B to the Cmaj pentatonic would sound nice too.

Hope that helped!

I'm sorry but that didn't answer my question. I was asking why Cmin pentatonic sounded good with C7, which is contradictory to the theory.

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

Simply, C7 is used a lot in blues...The flatted seventh (in this case), was a dominant (haha, pun) note in the chord C, and perhaps one of the more important melodic notes in blues, because often it is not at the exact pitch of the seventh (for example, guitarists often bend the b3, b5, b7 degrees of the blues scale, because it sounds bluesy).

You see that Cmin pentatonic contains C, Eb, G, Bb. The important thing is that it contains Bb, which is an important chord tone, and completely changes the sound of the chord; it makes the difference between Cmaj7 and C7, and this tritone tension (in C7) can make all the difference in the world.

Strangely, Eb can be used against C7, as Spastic mentioned: in the blues scale, which is (my form, anyway):

C Eb F Gb G Bb

1 b3 4 b5 5 b7

The blues sound is quite prevalent in jazz, as the two genres often mix and match together...However, my advice would be not to hold the Eb against the C7; a minor 2nd interval IS very dissonant. Just use the Eb as a passing tone, if you use the blues scale.

[Joelbassman]

Hey I take theory as a subject but I fid it hard to apply it to my instrument of choice (Bass)

So I'd like to look into Chord Progression, Sight Reading and Use of scales and Modes...

Any help would be greatly appreciated. :thumb:

[Omega Red]

sight reading takes practice, i suggest looking at musictheory.net for help with that. Scales learn as many as you possible can, and try to apply them every chance you get. Chord progressions i'm not really sure i've ever studied them, but if you look at some jazz standars you should find a blues form, rhythm changes, and tritonic harmonies.

[Joelbassman]

I've been looking at musictheory.net and the only problem is the sightreading of bass there was only guitar, key board and brass.

And is anyone in the knowing of a lesson of applying scales to bass?

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

Hm. I play jazz bass, e. though...

Anyway, theory helps bass a LOT. Most especially chord theory. Learning and applying common harmonic progressions will help you IMMENSELY. Key notes: in jazz, and a lot of popular music, the chords move in perfect fourths. This means UP in 4th's; for example, if you see Cm7, you expect a chord beginning on the root note a perfect fourth up. In this case, it's a chord with root F. (The quality is determined by key, melody, and ear, and I'm not counting inversions here...)

This is where the ii-V-I comes from. Notice they move in fourths. If you extend this progression, by moving entirely in fourths, you get a longer progression: ii-V-I-IV-viio-iii-vi. Note, however, that there is one tritone interval, from chord root to chord root. (I'll explain that later).

Ever heard of Autumn Leaves? It's that exact chord pattern, in the key of G major. However, Autumn Leaves is in E minor. How is this possible? The two keys share the same diatonic seventh chords. The most important thing about the progression is that it moves in fourths, not the key it is in. (Note also the progression ends on an Em7 - the tonic).

Anyway, learn chord charts - for walking in 4 and 2, and for general comping; for bass, I'd say learning chord charts is more important than learning to read. Chances are you'll be given chords, not melody. (Learn to sight read, if you are playing upright in a classical context. The only way to learn though, is by practice. And get someone to put you under pressure, and force you to read. Does wonders...)

Scales and modes are useful for a bassist, but unless you are big on bass solos, modes won't be all that neccessary. Also, learning chordal and harmonic theory can help you just as much, if not more, in soloing.

[Joelbassman]

Yeah I play Electric bass too (if that's what you were implying)

I really need some full lessons, links please?

I'd search but all the searches exclude the word 'bass' so it's really hard.

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

You won't find many full lessons on the net, not for this kind of stuff. Not good lessons anyway. My teacher taught me about modes, progressions, walking, etc...But then he's a jazz freak, so...

For general jazz theory: http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-theory.html
For modes and scales: http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/
For chordal theory, general theory, including classical: www.musictheory.net

There aren't many tutorial sites for jazz bass out there. I'd recommend learning arpeggio positions, modal positions, and the names of ALL the notes on the fretboard. It's not easy, but it's **** rewarding.

[barnable_eatable]

Alright, I was wondering if anyone could help me:

I understand the concept of 'layering' 3rds onto triads ie. 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th etc.
BUT, would you be able to construct a chord, for example, using the 13th but without the 9th and 11th? If so, what is this called?

Hope that made sense? :confused:

[pianoplyr77]

If you want a chord with just the thirteenth than just say "added 13".
For example, a C(added 13) would contain the notes: C E G A. Tipically when you want to use an added 13 you just call it a C6 (A is the 13 and the 6 in the key of C). All of the other ones, like added 11 or added 2 are all written out as "added (blank)"

[Saxamassima]

Alright, I was wondering if anyone could help me:

I understand the concept of 'layering' 3rds onto triads ie. 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th etc.
BUT, would you be able to construct a chord, for example, using the 13th but without the 9th and 11th? If so, what is this called?

Hope that made sense? :confused:

it's called a major 6 chord. think of the chord as a dominant 7th chord with the seventh lowered again - C E G A (Bbb). it would most likely be written as C6 or C13 and usually incorporates the major scale when improvising. you don't ALWAYS have to layer thirds on top of eachother to create a chord.

PS: i've seen a lot of bass players posting on this site. tell me what you guys think of Victor Wooten. he's out of his mind! absolutely crazah!

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?

[jazzfunkboy]

Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?

yoiu were right, it is A.

[pianoplyr77]

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?

Alterations on chords are used simply for the purpose of giving color to more simple chords. There are commonly used alterations, but they are not used over specific chords. For example, an Am7(b5) instead of just an Am7 would sound more full and "jazzy". Just expiriment with them untill you find something you like.

[Lydisk]

Yeah, common chords is Cmaj6/9 and Cmin6/9. Just C E G A D, or C Eb G A D, I think. Not sure whether of not the Cmin6/9 chord contains A (major sixth) or Ab (minor sixth).

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?


for sixth chords ex. C6 or Cmin6 think of them as triads with an added major 6. the 9th degree should always be major 9.

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

So you can use the full altered scale (to my knowledge, it consists of 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, 7) over any chord with an alteration in it? Such as Am7b5? Because to my ear, it sounds rather dissonant and chromatic...Or over Am7b5, is the locrian mode in the key of Bb major (perhaps with a natural 2) more preferable?

So what common alterations exist? I've seen flattened and sharpened fifths and ninths often, but less alterations to elevenths and thirteenths...And how do you decide what alterations to use? Is it by ear, resolution, intervals, or some other formula?

[jazzfunkboy]

So you can use the full altered scale (to my knowledge, it consists of 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, 7) over any chord with an alteration in it? Such as Am7b5? Because to my ear, it sounds rather dissonant and chromatic...Or over Am7b5, is the locrian mode in the key of Bb major (perhaps with a natural 2) more preferable?

So what common alterations exist? I've seen flattened and sharpened fifths and ninths often, but less alterations to elevenths and thirteenths...And how do you decide what alterations to use? Is it by ear, resolution, intervals, or some other formula?


i think alot of it is just by ear. like your question about the Am7b5, you could use the locrian mode. but there are tons of other scales you could use also (second and fourth modes of the the harmonic minor scale, etc.). i think alot of it is personal preference. im finding more and more everyday that jazz theory is so complex because its so abstract. alot of it is just doing what you feel.

now i have a question: dominant sharp 9 chords? do they include the major third as well as the sharp 9 (minor third)?

example: E7#9 = E G# B D G?

i think its just an excuse to play in the dorian mode without saying it :p.

[Bryan Blakey]

i think alot of it is just by ear. like your question about the Am7b5, you could use the locrian mode. but there are tons of other scales you could use also (second and fourth modes of the the harmonic minor scale, etc.). i think alot of it is personal preference. im finding more and more everyday that jazz theory is so complex because its so abstract. alot of it is just doing what you feel.

now i have a question: nt sharp 9 chords? do they include the major third as well as the sharp 9 (minor third)?

example: E7#9 = E G# B D G?

i think its just an excuse to play in the dorian mode without saying it :p.

Yes, a sharp nine isn't a minor third... it's a sharp nine.

[jc_dunn]

can someone please post some tab lessons about scales and stuff. i know absolutely nothing about jazz playing since i mainly have been playing metal and rock and such, plus i have no one to teach me how to play jazz (or play guitar at all but i seem to be surviving.). so yea please tab out some scales and stuff, since i don't understand all of this "b#" stuff.

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

LMFAO! B#.

No offense meant, but you MUST MUST MUST learn to read music. In jazz, you will be, as a guitarist, given lead sheets, in standard notation. Since you will be either playing the melody, or accompanying, you definetley need to learn chord theory, and note/chord names, etc..

[pianoplyr77]

I think he meant flats and sharps.

Yes like parariddlediddle (haha so much fun to type) said learn to read music. There are pleanty of sites out there that would have what you are looking for. You should just google guitar theory or something like that.

[Saxamassima]

nobody help him with a tab because he doesn't know how to read :p

[pianoplyr77]

Reading tabs is much different than reading music.

[PeterBudd]

Try Rufus Reeds bass book and try Arbans Trombone method.

[PeterBudd]

Try Rufus Reeds bass book and try Arbans Trombone method.

[PeterBudd]

It is not manditory to be able to read music to play jazz. Some of the greatest jazz guitarists couldn't read music. granted if you are playing in a big band that bhas charts you will probably need it, but in a combo unit, it is usually head arrangemenets. I usually hear this arguement from someone who has gone to school for music not from a life musician. I've been playing jazz for around fifty years. The last time I read a chart in jazz was way back in the late 60's and even those charts were basically very liberal. Not much reading.

[Bryan Blakey]

LMFAO! B#.

No offense meant, but you MUST MUST MUST learn to read music. In jazz, you will be, as a guitarist, given lead sheets, in standard notation. Since you will be either playing the melody, or accompanying, you definetley need to learn chord theory, and note/chord names, etc..

You know there is such thing as B# and E#.

For example, a C# major scale:
C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

If you played a C# major chord as C#, F, and G#, the F will be out of tune. It has to be an E# or an Fb (a little bit between the two, it's more of a flat F). That goes for all major chords - to be in tune, the third has to be a little bit flat. I'm not sure exactly how many cents, maybe 3 or 4. Pianos are a sort of compromise, but if three trombones play a major chord it can be beautifully in tune.

[/trivia]

[ParaRiddleDiddle]

Of course there is such thing as a B#. It's just that the posters use of the term, reminded me of a friend, who plays bass, who doesn't understand enharmonic spelling...

I get fed up with enharmonic spellings, though, because in most cases they are impratical, and just make music that much more difficult to read...Anyway, I'd say B# is one of the least common notes in compositions. Composers dislike using too many sharps and flats, often.

[Bryan Blakey]

Of course I understand enharmonics, but when you're an advanced musicians they apply to instruments like piano, trumpet, sax, etc... instruments that can't change the tuning of a note on the fly. For instruments like fretless bass and trombone (my primary instrument), however, there is a difference between G# and Ab. For G# on my trombone I have to be directly under the bell and sometimes a little bit past it. For Ab, I usually have to go in front of the bell a little bit. But on trumpet, G# and Ab (concert) are both just first valve, nothing they can do about it in the middle of a song (usually, I'm sure there is some tool to fix it that I have never heard of). Right.

[HaVIC5]

Of course there is such thing as a B#. It's just that the posters use of the term, reminded me of a friend, who plays bass, who doesn't understand enharmonic spelling...

I get fed up with enharmonic spellings, though, because in most cases they are impratical, and just make music that much more difficult to read...Anyway, I'd say B# is one of the least common notes in compositions. Composers dislike using too many sharps and flats, often.
That's why a lot of the time composers will spell things incorrectly so they are easier to play. The other half of the time, though, they don't know that what they're doing is incorrect.

[Tom]

Someone please explain quartal harmony please, and give me a few diagrams for them for guitar.

Thanks.

[axgrinder]

I've been playing guitar for about 12 years, and only recently have i gotten into jazz playing. My short term goal is to be able to successfully improvise in a ii V i progression (one of the main jazz progressions). I've learned my major 7th, minor 7th, dom 7th, 6th, 9ths chords and i know that i should focus around the chord tones while improvising (primarily the 3rds and 7ths).

My question is: When improvising jazz solos, do i use any scales/modes or can i just play anything, as long as i focus around the chord's target notes? I notice alot of jazz solos use chromatic notes, which makes me wonder if any scales are used. What can i do to make my jazz improv sound more "jazzy", as to my current approach, which is using the major/minor scales over this progression?

Example of what i'm doing over ii V i Progressions...

Dm7 > D Dorian, focusing on F notes (the 3rd of D)
G7 > G Mixolydian, focusing on F (the 7th of G)
Cmaj7 > C Major, focusing on E (the 3rd of C)

This just doesn't sound "jazzy" to me. Should i just forget about scales and concentrate on just playing anything (chromatic lines) between target notes?

[Saxamassima3]

I've been playing guitar for about 12 years, and only recently have i gotten into jazz playing. My short term goal is to be able to successfully improvise in a ii V i progression (one of the main jazz progressions). I've learned my major 7th, minor 7th, dom 7th, 6th, 9ths chords and i know that i should focus around the chord tones while improvising (primarily the 3rds and 7ths).

My question is: When improvising jazz solos, do i use any scales/modes or can i just play anything, as long as i focus around the chord's target notes? I notice alot of jazz solos use chromatic notes, which makes me wonder if any scales are used. What can i do to make my jazz improv sound more "jazzy", as to my current approach, which is using the major/minor scales over this progression?

Example of what i'm doing over ii V i Progressions...

Dm7 > D Dorian, focusing on F notes (the 3rd of D)
G7 > G Mixolydian, focusing on F (the 7th of G)
Cmaj7 > C Major, focusing on E (the 3rd of C)

This just doesn't sound "jazzy" to me. Should i just forget about scales and concentrate on just playing anything (chromatic lines) between target notes?

well, you're doing everything by the book i must say...do keep up the scales exercises, but also add chromaticism. that helps resolve notes to other chords. try different kinds of 2-5-1's, too (minor, diminished, etc.). and i don't know if i would start with 2-5-1's...i would start with easy blues - that is, if you're just starting to improvise. and the key to playing jazz is to listen. you should really listen to players in order ro get things into your head - ideas and such. for Dm7, don't stay in dorian. you can also go to locrian, or use the blues scale, or the penatonic scale, or diminished scales, or anything. chromaticism, too! and i would suggest going through a song and finger-picking the 1, 3, 5, and 7 of each chord in an eighth note pattern just to get it in your head. for example (just an example):

C7 D-7
/ / / / |/ / / / |
CEGBbGEC |DFA CA FD |
1+2+ 3+4--|1+2 +3 +4-- |

then go to first inversion, second, third. that'll really help get it under your fingers. just a bit of advice to get those chord notes in your head :)

don't limit yourself to anything. you CAN play anything. whatever sounds good to you. resolving notes are a good thing to use to help jazz it up. and transcribing solos is a good thing, too. listening will really help you, i think.

hope that helps

rat pack lives

[jazzfunkboy]

don't limit yourself to anything. you CAN play anything. whatever sounds good to you. resolving notes are a good thing to use to help jazz it up. and transcribing solos is a good thing, too. listening will really help you, i think.

hope that helps

rat pack lives

^^^ good advice.

when you are playing, you dont have to just focus on chord tones. you can use tensions notes (notes that arent in the chord) to color your improvisation. like, if you held an A over a G7. it sounds interesting.

you dont want to resolve to chord tones ALL the time because it gets monotonous after a while.

[axgrinder]

To Saxamassima3 & jazzfunkboy,
Thanks for the advice! I've played for about 12 years, but i've stuck mainly to rock, blues, and some classical playing. (Jazz always intimidated me.) I'm just now getting into jazz; i was told it would greatly help with improvising.

I am ok with soloing in a rock context (I IV V, ect.), but jazz is alot different. The difference with rock & jazz soloing is that i notice that alot of notes sound almost "out of key" in jazz. (alot of chromatism and tension notes). I just need to take your advice and listen to as many jazz guitarists as i can, so i can get that sound in my head... So far, i liked Joe Pass's work the best. Any suggestions on other great jazz players???

[Saxamassima3]

To Saxamassima3 & jazzfunkboy,
Thanks for the advice! I've played for about 12 years, but i've stuck mainly to rock, blues, and some classical playing. (Jazz always intimidated me.) I'm just now getting into jazz; i was told it would greatly help with improvising.

I am ok with soloing in a rock context (I IV V, ect.), but jazz is alot different. The difference with rock & jazz soloing is that i notice that alot of notes sound almost "out of key" in jazz. (alot of chromatism and tension notes). I just need to take your advice and listen to as many jazz guitarists as i can, so i can get that sound in my head... So far, i liked Joe Pass's work the best. Any suggestions on other great jazz players???

i'm not too familiar with many jazz guitarists...at least not off the top of my head. :D the ones that come to mind are pat metheny, wes montgomery, and george benson. but you shold also listen to players of dirrerent instruments to get more ideas. although it's not guitar, bass guitar can sometimes help. victor wooten is an AMAZING bass player. you could also check out charles mingus or jaco pastorius for some good big band playing with a star bassist. for bebop, go with charlie parker, clifford brown, cannonball adderley, or dizzy gillespie. for soul, i love cannonball. he's so ****ing good it hurts. umm...well i'm blanking out right now, but you get the idea.

also, the reason they sound out of key is because there are many "rules" in jazz that aren't in rock or whatever. a lot of it has to do with modes or inversions and, like you said, chromaticism and tension. for instance, you will rarely use a flat 9th in a rock song. it just makes it sound out of key (unless the song calls for some weirdness ;) ). just listen A LOT and learn your modes and inversions. that little exercise i mentioned in my last post is a good way to learn your inversions.

[Stert]

could someone explain to me the twelve-tone technique (or dodecaphony, if that helps at all).

[Omega Red]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique

[Stert]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique

thats funny, because thats where i first heard of this technique and thats the explination i dont really understand. i had a friend explain it to me somewhat. he told me you had to play all 12 notes in the scale before you could repeat notes. was just wondering if there was anything else to it. and if someone could possibly explain the charts/tables it gives you.

if anyone has any other insights on composing and playing atonal music then that would be awsome. this subject has just sparked my interest is all.

[Jace The Bass]

To Saxamassima3 & jazzfunkboy,
Thanks for the advice! I've played for about 12 years, but i've stuck mainly to rock, blues, and some classical playing. (Jazz always intimidated me.) I'm just now getting into jazz; i was told it would greatly help with improvising.

I am ok with soloing in a rock context (I IV V, ect.), but jazz is alot different. The difference with rock & jazz soloing is that i notice that alot of notes sound almost "out of key" in jazz. (alot of chromatism and tension notes). I just need to take your advice and listen to as many jazz guitarists as i can, so i can get that sound in my head... So far, i liked Joe Pass's work the best. Any suggestions on other great jazz players???
Wes Montgomery
Charlie Christian -although they sound similar but don't limit yourself to guitar players there are great saxophone players as well as other instrumentalists that are just as good if not better

[jazzfunkboy]

i was wondering about augmented chords- what the heck are they used for? i know that (if we were in C major) the C augmented chord would lead to the vi chord. but where else does it lead? why?

for any of you jazz guys that have been gigging for a while- what are the scales you woudl reccomend that i learn if i want to be a gigging jazz bassist? i know alot about harmony etc, but i just dont want to waste my time learning some obscure scale that ill never use. i also dont want to come to a situation and not be prepared, i hate that feeling.

thanks!

[Saxamassima3]

i was wondering about augmented chords- what the heck are they used for? i know that (if we were in C major) the C augmented chord would lead to the vi chord. but where else does it lead? why?

um...they're used for augmented chords...what are you talkin about?

for any of you jazz guys that have been gigging for a while- what are the scales you woudl reccomend that i learn if i want to be a gigging jazz bassist? i know alot about harmony etc, but i just dont want to waste my time learning some obscure scale that ill never use. i also dont want to come to a situation and not be prepared, i hate that feeling.

thanks!

learn all of them. walking is real important. and learning styles is important. IN ALL KEYS!

[what again]

Not much, just finishing sophomore year of high school. Once school is over, I'll be able to focus much more on music. This summer I'm taking the 5 week performance course at Berklee, hopefully that will be a good experience.


cool, I'll be there too, you're the 4th person from mx going there

[jus]

cool, I'll be there too, you're the 4th person from mx going there

5th!

Hopefully I'll see you guys around. What instruments do you guys play? I'm going for (electric)bass.

[PuNk]

I dont very much care for the musical stylings of jazz. They just dont seem to interest me very much.

[Jace The Bass]

cool, I'll be there too, you're the 4th person from mx going there
I have a friend going there his name is Andy Ma'fua he's from New Zealand going over there to do the five week course
He plays gat but is brilliant on the keys

[Saxamassima3]

I dont very much care for the musical stylings of jazz. They just dont seem to interest me very much.

well, most cockmunchers don't like jazz...let me guess, you like punk rock? :lol:

[Omega Red]

you havent found the right type of jazz for your styles. Its none of it is as mindless as punk, but comtemporary smooth jazz comes close

[TheSeanKelly]

so I was just stumbling across this forum, recommended by my friend. I'm a member of the forum at http://www.allaboutjazz.com, its an awesome forum for jazz if anyone is interested. Anyway, I've been debating over this question fro some time, and I decided to try and get some more opinions on it.

Does anyone else feel that, while helpful, the fact that scales on the guitar can be broken down into basically five different "boxes" is more of a curse than a blessing? It seems that now that I know them, I can just think "oh hey, a Cmaj7 chord! I can play the ionian/lydian form at the 8th fret!" and in turn my soloing seems to be very boring, and choppy when it comes to skipping around in the positions.

One suggestion I heard to eliminate this was to only solo using a couple strings at a time, to gradually break down the five boxes and fuse them into one "total box" that is 22 frets long, and see the neck as a whole. However, this still doesn't alleviate the problem of mindlessly playing.

The idea I came up with was to learn to solo using only chord tones at first, because they are the bones and foundations that hold jazz solos together. However, to avoid simply invisioning five arpeggio forms across the neck would also defeat the purpose. The only solution I've seem to come up with to figure out how to break out of the guitar-box form is to think in terms of notes. IE, a Cmaj7, play C E G B all over the neck. not simply an ionian scale form, or a major arpeggio form.

anyone have thoughts on this?

sorry if something like this has been covered in this thread, but I really dont have the time to read through 14 pages :P

[jazzfunkboy]

so I was just stumbling across this forum, recommended by my friend. I'm a member of the forum at http://www.allaboutjazz.com, its an awesome forum for jazz if anyone is interested. Anyway, I've been debating over this question fro some time, and I decided to try and get some more opinions on it.

Does anyone else feel that, while helpful, the fact that scales on the guitar can be broken down into basically five different "boxes" is more of a curse than a blessing? It seems that now that I know them, I can just think "oh hey, a Cmaj7 chord! I can play the ionian/lydian form at the 8th fret!" and in turn my soloing seems to be very boring, and choppy when it comes to skipping around in the positions.

One suggestion I heard to eliminate this was to only solo using a couple strings at a time, to gradually break down the five boxes and fuse them into one "total box" that is 22 frets long, and see the neck as a whole. However, this still doesn't alleviate the problem of mindlessly playing.

The idea I came up with was to learn to solo using only chord tones at first, because they are the bones and foundations that hold jazz solos together. However, to avoid simply invisioning five arpeggio forms across the neck would also defeat the purpose. The only solution I've seem to come up with to figure out how to break out of the guitar-box form is to think in terms of notes. IE, a Cmaj7, play C E G B all over the neck. not simply an ionian scale form, or a major arpeggio form.

anyone have thoughts on this?

sorry if something like this has been covered in this thread, but I really dont have the time to read through 14 pages :P

well, what ive found is that when i first started learning the modes i was very stuck to playing in the "boxes". but as you practice more, the barriers just melt away until you dont really need to follow the scale positions anymore.

[Kayetan]

i was wondering about augmented chords- what the heck are they used for? i know that (if we were in C major) the C augmented chord would lead to the vi chord. but where else does it lead? why?

I'm not exactly sure what they're for, but I was just thinking about all the chords that could be substituted over them. Say, C augmented, wouldn't E7 and Amaj7 both work pretty well?

Meh, I'm still not good at figring out good chord substitutions, besides the tritone.

[Tarquin1986]

Does anyone else feel that, while helpful, the fact that scales on the guitar can be broken down into basically five different "boxes" is more of a curse than a blessing? It seems that now that I know them, I can just think "oh hey, a Cmaj7 chord! I can play the ionian/lydian form at the 8th fret!" and in turn my soloing seems to be very boring.

One suggestion I heard to eliminate this was to only solo using a couple strings at a time, to gradually break down the five boxes and fuse them into one "total box" that is 22 frets long, and see the neck as a whole. However, this still doesn't alleviate the problem of mindlessly playing.


anyone have thoughts on this?

:P

Nearly every good jazz player will eventually learn to just play the melodies they hear in their heads rendering 'boxes' sort of irrelevant. Put down your instrument for a little bit and listen to a chord progression. Once you get the feel of it start singing a melody and keep singing until you run out of ideas. Ideally what you just sang should be what your solo over this progression sounds like because you came up with this without the limitations and habits that go with your instrument. With practice you should be able to play melodies like this while you sing them, composing in your head and working out the fingerings simultaneously.

This may take months or years to nail but it should be the ultimate goal of any aspiring jazzer. Personally I haven't quite mastered it but I'm well on the way.

[Nic__]

Okay, I didn't understand much of that, but it looked interesting. Imma try to grasp it later today.

[jazzfunkboy]

is it common in jazz to use the lydian scale for major b5 chords? or is there a more common scale?

[Saxamassima3]

is it common in jazz to use the lydian scale for major b5 chords? or is there a more common scale?

yes, it is common.

[rhcpcure2826]

is it common in jazz to use the lydian scale for major b5 chords? or is there a more common scale?

No. Lydian is commonly employed over maj7#11 chords. Lydian doesn't have a b5, it has a #4. True, the interval is enharmonic, but they function completely differently.

Furthermore, a "maj b5" chord is kind of a misnomer.

[rhcpcure2826]

Someone please explain quartal harmony please, and give me a few diagrams for them for guitar.

Thanks.

Quartal harmony is the harmony used in Eastern music (Western music uses the "Tertiary" system). "Quartal" means 4 (as you can probably tell), which means four notes in the basic chord as opposed to three. Another difference is found in the design of chords-- QH doesn't involve the same basic triads plus another note or something of that type:

The chords of this type of harmony are based on stacked perfect intervals. The perfect intervals include the p4, p5, octave, and unison. So, if we stack fourths starting with B, we get this chord:

B, E, A, D (B, D, E, A in ascending order. However, qurtal harmony does not use the ascending order system, which is why a piano is inconvenient for this type of music).

10-
10-
9--
9--
---
---

If we add yet another p4 interval, we get a G. The chord is then B, E, A, D, G. Oddly enough, thie is a mode of the G major pentatonic scale. If you were to employ this as a scale or arpeggio, it could be played as such:

-----------------------7-
------------------8-10---
--------------7-9--------
----------7-9------------
-----7-10----------------
7-10---------------------

And you can get interesting "Oriental" sounds in your jazz soloing with scales like that. In particular, this mode:

--------------------5-7-
----------------5-8-----
------------4-7---------
--------5-7-------------
----5-7-----------------
5-7---------------------

[rhcpcure2826]

[Some user asks a question about removing the 9th and 11th from the 13 chord]

it's called a major 6 chord. think of the chord as a dominant 7th chord with the seventh lowered again - C E G A (Bbb). it would most likely be written as C6 or C13 and usually incorporates the major scale when improvising. you don't ALWAYS have to layer thirds on top of eachother to create a chord.


Sorry.... but nearly everything that you said is wrong or a half-truth:

A dominant 13 chord's degrees are as such: 1-3-5-b7-9-11-13

As a guitarist, tone omission is a necessity. The first extension tone that would be removed is the 11th (4th/3rd interaction is bad). 1-3-5-b7-9-13

And then the 9th. It and the 13 are on equal standings as far as importance to he dominant chord, but as this is a 13 chord, the 9th should first be omitted. 1-3-5-b7-13.

And the weakest tone of all (the 5th) can go. 1-3-b7-13 is STILL a 13 chord. The most common voicing is:

-
5
4
3
-
3

Or (with the 9th)

5
5
4
3
-
3

Those are both G13 chords, with or without the 9th or 5th or 11th! The point is: function.

Tones are omitted for two reasons: 1. Finger convenience and 2. Sound of chord and voicing. If you were to retain all tones of a dom13 chord (G again), you have: G, A, B, C, D, E, F. This is the G Mixolydian mode! Playing a scales notes all at once (in the same octave) is never a good thing. Granted, the notes are spaced out and a G13 chord is really G-B-D-F-A-C-E. But that weakens the 13 extension and is, again, NON practical for any harmonic instrument.

So, a G13 is theoretically 1-3-5-b7-9-11-13. In practicality? No. Among a community of guitarists and pianists, the 11th is not vital by ANY means (or the 9th, or the 5th) to the 13 chord.

(For the record, the tones of a chord in order of strength and importance are as such (greatest to least): Third, Extensions, Seventh, Root, Fifth. Surprising at first, but true if you look at it and lay it out).

EDIT: That Bbb thing is NOT a good way to look at things.

Bbb is a bb7. Not a 6. Enharmonic, yes, but by no means similar in function. NOt even good to think about it that way.

[Saxamassima3]

Furthermore, a "maj b5" chord is kind of a misnomer.


my mistake :rolleyes:

[jazzfunkboy]

No. Lydian is commonly employed over maj7#11 chords. Lydian doesn't have a b5, it has a #4. True, the interval is enharmonic, but they function completely differently.

Furthermore, a "maj b5" chord is kind of a misnomer.


so.. what is played instead? shouldnt Lydian work if you avoided the perfect fifth?

[Omega Red]

so.. what is played instead? shouldnt Lydian work if you avoided the perfect fifth?
all of lydian will work because in the chord you have a 1,3,5,7,and#11, so a 5 will still work along with the #11.

[rhcpcure2826]

so.. what is played instead? shouldnt Lydian work if you avoided the perfect fifth?

Lydian in jazz is played almost exclusively over maj7#11 chords.

Look at the scale degree formula and the chord formula:

Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8

maj7#11: 1 3 5 7 9 #11

The #11 and #4 are identiacal. Lydian has a perfect fifth, the most common chord it's played over has a perfect fifth, there's nothing to worry about with the 5th. Like all three major modes, Lydian has a major triad. Don't see the #4 as a fifth of any kind. See it as a #4. This means that Lydian should be avoided over chords with a 4 or 11 in them. Not a p5 or #11.


Because maj7#11 chords aren't extremely common (they pop up here and there) here's the best way to use a Lydian-esque mode in jazz:

Take a G dominant chord (G7, G9, whatever). The best (most sensible) scale to employ over this chord is G Mixolydian. However, you can make a 10x more interesting sound using the Mixolydian scale a tritone up (Db Mixo). However, there's one problem: the p4 in Db Mixolydian (F#) will clash horribly with the G7 chord. So, we can raise this 4 to a #4 to make this a Lydian scale. This is actually called "Lydian Dominant" because it still has a b7 (remember, "dominant" means a major triad and a b7, which this scale has). This also happens to be the 4th mode of Melodic minor.

That's the most common Lydian melodic substitution.

[rhcpcure2826]

Next topic: altered scales and chords. I've heard that they are used a lot in modern jazz, but I can't seem to get that modern sound out of them. What chords are they used over, exactly? #9 #5's? b9 b5's? or just (alt.) chords?

The altered scale (a.k.a. pomeroy, a.k.a. Super Locrian) is the 7th mode of Melodic minor ("jazz minor.")

Consider its degrees:

1 b2 #2 3 b5 #5 b7 8 (This, believe it or not, IS the correct way to notate this scale. 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7, 8 is completely inappropriate for this scale, and I'll explain later).

Super Locrian is appropriate for any and all dominant chords OR altered dominant chords (dominant chords must have a major triad and a b7).

The altered scale is most suitable over altered chords. It has a b9, #9, b5, #5, so use G altered scale over a G altered chord.

The most common melodic substitution is Ab melodic minor over a G altered chord. Why? Because it is the 2nd mode of G altered, and G altered is the 7th mode of melodic minor.

So, given a G7 chord, I'd mix up G altered and G Mixo to grasp those tones you're looking for. Modern jazz... I hope you don't mean smooth jazz?

--------

Off topic:

The altered scale's degrees. If we want to follow the scale formula "rules," wouldn't be have to have a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 kind of thing when naming degrees? No. Most people are inclined to write: 1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7, 8. Well, guess what? b4 has no unique function as an interval. WHich menas that it doesn't make much sense to notate the scale that way (however easy it may be to do).

So why this way: 1, b2, #2, 3, b5, #5, b7, 8? Well, the altered scale is played over altered dominant chords, right? And altered dominant chords have these b9's, #9s, b5s, and #5's we've been talking about, right? So it's only appropriate to name the degrees as such. PLUS, dominant chords (altered or not) have a major third. Not a b4.

[rhcpcure2826]

It seems that you must be schooled? I have been playing jazz for 45 years. I never have time to think of what scale to play over which chord. You can learn all the theory you want, but it won't help you play jazz. Most of the guitarists that I know or knew. Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Howard roberts all played from feel. The best way is to take one model scale. The dorian scale is probably the best scale to use. Try playing the a dorian against the following chords. Ami7 D7 Gma7, and you will be suprised what you can come up with. playing the G scale starting with A is the dorian for those not familier with scales. Learn other peoples solos is one of the best way to learn jazz.

I can't say that you've been playing jazz "wrong" all these years, because that defeats its purpose, but chord following for budding jazz musicians is a NECESSITY. Joe Pass, Wes Motgomery, Miles, Coltrane, Pat Metheny, John McLaughlin, Django, Charlie Christian, Scott Henderson, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker , Cannonball, Sonny Rollins, Bill Evans, Winton Kelly, Dave Brubeck, these artists' styles were DEFINED by the attention payed to the harmonic structure!

I can't see how you've been playing jazz, learning other solos, for 45 years and you have not noticed any attention payed to the chord changes at all? That seems impossible to me, sorry.

The exception to this is modal jazz, which involves very basicand rare chord changes, and allows a soloist to come with many different scales over one or even two chords throughout a song (popular examples include Milestones and Impressions). But, IMO, an artist who uses A Dorian throughout an entire song or solo, and uses one scale per song for his whole career is seriously lacking in ideas, no matter how goo his phrasing.

Jazz melodic soloing involves four things: 1. Arpeggios 2. Chromatics 3. Melodic substitutions 4. Coresponding scales

[Tarquin1986]

What scales are used over the E7#9 chord?

[Saxamassima3]

What scales are used over the E7#9 chord?

well, since it's a dominant chord, you have many choices. the #9 isn't that big of a deal, just think of it as saying that the #9 is in the chord, too. for the chord, use of mixolydian, whole tone, diminished, major, or minor can all be made. the dominant 7th chord leaves much to the imagination and can be said to be the most "free" chord in jazz. if you don't know what some of the chords i listed are made up of, just make a post saying so and i'd be glad to help you out :thumb: as well as many others on this forum i'm sure would be.

[StevieC]

wow, you guys are young
I'm 12. Some 16-year-old came up to me and said "I wish I could improvise as well as you," after the first gig I'd ever played in. But I play mainly blues, not jazz. I'm trying to learn jazz. And it's hard...

[jazzfunkboy]

Lydian in jazz is played almost exclusively over maj7#11 chords.

Look at the scale degree formula and the chord formula:

Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8

maj7#11: 1 3 5 7 9 #11

The #11 and #4 are identiacal. Lydian has a perfect fifth, the most common chord it's played over has a perfect fifth, there's nothing to worry about with the 5th. Like all three major modes, Lydian has a major triad. Don't see the #4 as a fifth of any kind. See it as a #4. This means that Lydian should be avoided over chords with a 4 or 11 in them. Not a p5 or #11.


Because maj7#11 chords aren't extremely common (they pop up here and there) here's the best way to use a Lydian-esque mode in jazz:

Take a G dominant chord (G7, G9, whatever). The best (most sensible) scale to employ over this chord is G Mixolydian. However, you can make a 10x more interesting sound using the Mixolydian scale a tritone up (Db Mixo). However, there's one problem: the p4 in Db Mixolydian (F#) will clash horribly with the G7 chord. So, we can raise this 4 to a #4 to make this a Lydian scale. This is actually called "Lydian Dominant" because it still has a b7 (remember, "dominant" means a major triad and a b7, which this scale has). This also happens to be the 4th mode of Melodic minor.

That's the most common Lydian melodic substitution.


wait, no i didnt mean major sharp 11 chords (sorry). i meant "what do you play over a chord that has a root, major third, and flat fifth?

thanks for that explanation anyways, at least i learned something.

[Saxamassima3]

wait, no i didnt mean major sharp 11 chords (sorry). i meant "what do you play over a chord that has a root, major third, and flat fifth?

thanks for that explanation anyways, at least i learned something.

over a "7, b5" chord you could use many things - again, because it's a dominant 7 chord. you could use the diminished scale or the whole tone scale over it...give that a shot.

[rhcpcure2826]

well, since it's a dominant chord, you have many choices. the #9 isn't that big of a deal, just think of it as saying that the #9 is in the chord, too. for the chord, use of mixolydian, whole tone, diminished, major, or minor can all be made. the dominant 7th chord leaves much to the imagination and can be said to be the most "free" chord in jazz. if you don't know what some of the chords i listed are made up of, just make a post saying so and i'd be glad to help you out :thumb: as well as many others on this forum i'm sure would be.

Whole tone? The E Whole Tone scale over E7#9? Tere's no p5 or #2 for that matter in Whole tone, I would reserve WT for chords with a b5 or #5 alteration (especially #5). Augmented chords' parent scale is said to be whole tone. Some good dissonance could be delivered, but not much controlled dissonance.

The Major scale... I'm not a picky one, but the D# will clash when used as the leading tone of the E major scale with any E dominant chord. E bebop, would be better, because the D# will be a passing tone instead.

Other minor scales that I would recommend suggesting to someone who's not familiar with these territories is E Dorian or E minor Bebop (m bebop especially). That or F Melodic minor.

Try what you want to, question poser, but I recommend:

1. E altered (E - F - G - Ab - Bb - C - D - E )
2. E Mixolydian
3. B minor bebop
4. E dominant bebop
5. F melodic minor (E altered is a mode of that scale)
6. E blues scale (with added major third is especially god for dominant chords)

[Saxamassima3]

Whole tone? The E Whole Tone scale over E7#9? Tere's no p5 or #2 for that matter in Whole tone, I would reserve WT for chords with a b5 or #5 alteration (especially #5). Augmented chords' parent scale is said to be whole tone. Some good dissonance could be delivered, but not much controlled dissonance.

The Major scale... I'm not a picky one, but the D# will clash when used as the leading tone of the E major scale with any E dominant chord. E bebop, would be better, because the D# will be a passing tone instead.

Other minor scales that I would recommend suggesting to someone who's not familiar with these territories is E Dorian or E minor Bebop (m bebop especially). That or F Melodic minor.

Try what you want to, question poser, but I recommend:

1. E altered (E - F - G - Ab - Bb - C - D - E )
2. E Mixolydian
3. B minor bebop
4. E dominant bebop
5. F melodic minor (E altered is a mode of that scale)
6. E blues scale (with added major third is especially god for dominant chords)

ever heard of going outside the changes, moron?

[Kayetan]

ever heard of going outside the changes, moron?
Ummm, how does giving correct information make him/her a moron?

[Saxamassima3]

Ummm, how does giving correct information make him/her a moron?

it doesn't. rudely attempting correct me about information that i've given correctly makes him a moron. and who asked you?

[Kayetan]

Sorry. I thought speaking out of turn or something on the internet was ok...Could you call on me next time I raise my hand?

Besides, rhcpcure's correction makes sense to me...

[Saxamassima3]

Sorry. I thought speaking out of turn or something on the internet was ok...Could you call on me next time I raise my hand?

Besides, rhcpcure's correction makes sense to me...

call on you? what are you, gay? and if you actually sit in your room and raise your hand when you have something to say on the internet, then i don't know whether to laugh at you or feel sorry for you. playing out of the changes creates interesting results - a fact that perhaps he overlooked?

[Kayetan]

Oh yeah, that was sarcasm....

[Saxamassima3]

Oh yeah, that was sarcasm....

as was mine, jackass. god, you're bad at this!

[rhcpcure2826]

it doesn't. rudely attempting correct me about information that i've given correctly makes him a moron. and who asked you?

You think that that was rude? Jesus Christ, you're going to get your *** kicked one day. You're a dumbass. He asked what scales he could apply OVER this chord, not what scales he could apply to clash horribly wrong with this chord, moron. You know nothing about jazz theory or jazz in general for that matter. Sit down and serve a time out.

Seriously, why would you recommend a scale with high, BAD and unmoderated dissonance when played over this chord such as whole tone?

EDIT: On another note, lol haven't you realized that you're always wrong? Why do you continue to post here?

[Saxamassima3]

You think that that was rude? Jesus Christ, you're going to get your *** kicked one day. You're a dumbass. He asked what scales he could apply OVER this chord, not what scales he could apply to clash horribly wrong with this chord, moron. You know nothing about jazz theory or jazz in general for that matter. Sit down and serve a time out.

Seriously, why would you recommend a scale with high, BAD and unmoderated dissonance when played over this chord such as whole tone?

EDIT: On another note, lol haven't you realized that you're always wrong? Why do you continue to post here?

i sensed some sarcasm in your typing, yes. why don't you let me worry about holding my own and go back to your lonely little room? if you're so uptight about theory and what scales land EXACTLY on the chord tones and are afraid to go a bit out of the changes, then your solos are going to suck.that information, for your information, is some information i learned from one of jerry coker's books. why would he, a widely known music educator/player that knows WAY more than you, write about it if it's wrong? and who the **** says "serve a time out"? you sound like a little bitch to me. you wanna hear bad out of changes playing? you listen to tearyan and his group on this forum the Aeolian Effect. THAT is bad out of changes playing - it's playing that doesn't even make sense (although, it is a beginner's playing). going out of the changes is common in jazz - especially today. and when else have i been wrong on this forum? i'd seriously like to know, because i don't give wrong information to people when they ask for help. so **** you and your "i know everything, i'm so cool, i jack off to theory" attitude, because i makes you look like a little bitch. no, as a matter of fact, it makes you look like a big bitch. just a big giant bitch.

rat pack lives

[epilp]

C Phrygian

C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C

My teacher was showing me a new arpeggio, but he did so right after introducing me to the Phrygian mode. I've already had my own personal experience with the modes in what I've taught myself, but this was going along with his lesson plans.

He showed me a C Major7b5 arpeggio (chord) and I noticed its similar tonality to Phrygian mode. He said "good ear, that's the ii chord of Bb Phrygian." This isn't part of this week's lesson, but it kind of got me thinking. I would've thought the ii chord would have been C Major7. Why is it C M7-5?

This brings me to another question, what would the I chord be? I think it'd be a plain old Bb Minor7, but it doesn't sound the way I expect it to.

Any thoughts?

[joas]

In the Phrygian scale, the second chord would actually be major/major7th, so perhaps you misheard your teacher? The (normally) major7th that is the IV chord is now half diminished/min7b5. The I of Phrygian would be (with 1 - 3 - 5 - 7) just a min7th chord, but in extensions, it could turn into a min7b9 or min7b13 with other changes (Phrygian, as you probably know, has b2 b3 b6 b7).


Personally, when working with modes coming from an Ionian scale, I would use also C Major (Ionian) and its modes, since you won't have any sharps or flats at first. Though comparing C Major to C Phrygian would give you a similar gist, I suppose.




[If I've mistook any of this, feel free to correct me. I'm tired, and got up early]

[epilp]

I definitely didn't misunderstand my teacher because he writes the things I have to work on through the week down in a book, and the arpeggio was definitely the Maj7-5.

Someone in the Guitar Forum told me that while the major7 chord would work, it'd be better to use the maj7-5 because of the ii-I resolution in Phrygian? It made sense to me, but was he right?

[joas]

Well, in jazz terms, it should ultimately be a ii - V - I ending (or something near that, for people that like to substitute chords and add in others :p), in which case you would go, lets say in E Phrygian, Fmaj7 - Bmin7b5 - Emin7. Or C Phrygian, where it then becomes Dbmaj7 - Gmin7b5 - Cmin7. In either case, the strength of the V to the I would be basically the equivalent of your ii to I, since you're using a half diminished chord in the V, which would lead back to a min7.

But, in all honesty, I have never heard of a "maj7-5/maj7b5" (I assume that they are equivalent, and I'm not talking off about something different, right?). I'd be interested to read about it, though in that since I would think it'd be more like maj7#11, since the 5th in Western music is very strong against the tonic, so I'm not sure you would necessarily get that right out of a scale, though maybe from modulation..

[epilp]

Yeah, maj7b5 is what I'm talking about. I'd never heard of all these chords until Scott McGill gave them to me as arpeggios I must learn. The first one that I saw but hadn't seen before was a minor/maj7. If you can't figure that out, it'd simply be like C Eb G B.

He posts like free daily theory tidbits on his site. I've never really explored much of it since half of it is outdated anyway.

http://www.scottmcgill.com

[rhcpcure2826]

if you're so uptight about theory and what scales land EXACTLY on the chord tones and are afraid to go a bit out of the changes,

Stop right there. Douche, you're completely skewing this. I know more about soloing over and out of a chord context than you could ever hope to, but you were WRONG. Just... wrong to encourage whole tone on a beginner jazz soloist. You were wrong. And now you think that I'm some anti-freedom-in-soloing guy, when I've gathered more experience and have better and MORE melodic ideas than you've ever created (which is more than likely none).

then your solos are going to suck.

That sounds like a challenge. Dare we post recordings?

Yeah, actually, I'd like to hear a recording of your soloing. Post it within 24 hours and I'll do the same, and we'll see whose solo is going to suck.

that information, for your information, is some information i learned from one of jerry coker's books. why would he, a widely known music educator/player that knows WAY more than you, write about it if it's wrong?

A. Show me the exact quote, book.
B. You're wrong anyways to encourage a scale that is removed from the 7#9 chord. For ****'s sake, READ THIS: He asked for scales that work EFFECTIVELY over 7#9 chords for someone that obviously has begginner phrasing. You reccomend a scale (whole tone) that will be complete **** when played with beginner's phrasing. See, dumbass?


and who the **** says "serve a time out"? you sound like a little bitch to me.

Wow, someone has bad reception of sarcasm. It was a twist on your getting so pissed off about the other poster saying "Raise my hand." Obviously, it worked and you have proved your idiocy.


and when else have i been wrong on this forum? i'd seriously like to know, because i don't give wrong information to people when they ask for help.

Yes, you ****ing do. I've already SHOWN you evidence BEFORE the whole tone/major scale inaccuracy. I'll continue throughout my stay on this forum to do the same, because you have to be a jerk when your ego is stepped on (and when you're clearly wrong).

so **** you and your "i know everything, i'm so cool, i jack off to theory" attitude


Yeah. Case in point, your arguement has no basis. I don't know everything, but I'll always know more than you.

"jack of to theory"... Yeah, well we'll just see who has the better recording. Promise to shut the **** up after that? Good then. Then we'll see who's more theoretically inclined and who's more practically inclined (I've already owned you theoretically).


EDIT: Hm, looks like most of this forum thinks that you're a moron (by reading your posts). You are truly a sad man. W/e, I'll ignore you as soon as you get your **** recording up here.

[Saxamassima3]

Stop right there. Douche, you're completely skewing this. I know more about soloing over and out of a chord context than you could ever hope to, but you were WRONG. Just... wrong to encourage whole tone on a beginner jazz soloist. You were wrong.


why is it wrong to answer a simple question? he asked what would be used effectively, as you said, over the chord, and i answered him correctly. there's nothing wrong with encouraging experimentation. who knows? maybe he'll use it perfectly the first time he tries - assuming, of course, that we're using precision of theory and not creativity in its whole.

And now you think that I'm some anti-freedom-in-soloing guy, when I've gathered more experience and have better and MORE melodic ideas than you've ever created (which is more than likely none).

i never once said that you gathered less experience than me. you must be ion college. i said you'd gathered less experience than Jerry Coker - but just for the record. anyway, you probably have gathered more experience and melodic ideas than i have mostly because of the fact that i'm in high school. i haven't even taken a theory class yet - although i'm assigned to a college theory class next year. this does NOT, however, exclude me from anything - especially when i post correct replies. now zappa has, unfortunately, taken this freedom from me, and i will have my revenge...oh yes....i will have my revenge...


That sounds like a challenge. Dare we post recordings?

Yeah, actually, I'd like to hear a recording of your soloing. Post it within 24 hours and I'll do the same, and we'll see whose solo is going to suck.

first of all, i had no intention of a challenge. but that is mostly because of this fact (which i have stated before in another post) : i have ONE recording of myself on tape. one. i've already posted the site on this forum in another (i don't know what you call it) topic(?) from a few years ago. well, now that i think of it, i do have another recording, but it's from middle school and is on a cassette tape, so that does no good.


A. Show me the exact quote, book.
B. You're wrong anyways to encourage a scale that is removed from the 7#9 chord. For ****'s sake, READ THIS: He asked for scales that work EFFECTIVELY over 7#9 chords for someone that obviously has begginner phrasing. You reccomend a scale (whole tone) that will be complete **** when played with beginner's phrasing. See, dumbass?


how the hell am i supposed to show it to you? wanna take a ride to my house?
i think the book was called "jazz improvising" or "improvising jazz" or something.


Wow, someone has bad reception of sarcasm. It was a twist on your getting so pissed off about the other poster saying "Raise my hand." Obviously, it worked and you have proved your idiocy.

i have a bad reception of sarcasm? buddy, my reply was sarcasm, too. i wasn't even mad. that's called "sarcastic anger", and is a method used by my best friend, sean. he does it well, i might add...anyway, your "raise my hand" thing was a bad attempt at sarcasm and i thought i'd point it out, exposing your idiocy


Yes, you ****ing do. I've already SHOWN you evidence BEFORE the whole tone/major scale inaccuracy. I'll continue throughout my stay on this forum to do the same, because you have to be a jerk when your ego is stepped on (and when you're clearly wrong).

i must've missed it...don't know what else to say...if you want to dedicate your life to trying to prove me wrong, then be my guest. i've helped many with what i know, but ****ing zappa is a dick and can't handle a little ONLINE fighting. because he's a ****. just a big fat ****.

i'd now like to take a break and sing another song dedicated to zappa - whom i've heard is the so-called "leader" of this forum.

zappa's a bitch, he's a big big bitch.
zappa's a bitch, he's a big big bitch.
if there's one thing that's a bigger bitch than zappa,
i'd like to know what it is, because zappa is one great, big, giant bitch.
**** you, zappa.


Yeah. Case in point, your arguement has no basis. I don't know everything, but I'll always know more than you.

well, if you're as old as i think you are, then you're probably right. but again, this wasn't about who knows more than who. this was about your rude (or at least, what i thought was rude) comment against my recommendation.

"jack off to theory"... Yeah, well we'll just see who has the better recording. Promise to shut the **** up after that? Good then. Then we'll see who's more theoretically inclined and who's more practically inclined (I've already owned you theoretically).

i'll ignore that because i've explained all of it already.


EDIT: Hm, looks like most of this forum thinks that you're a moron (by reading your posts). You are truly a sad man. W/e, I'll ignore you as soon as you get your **** recording up here.

no no, not moron, ***-hole (hyphenated for censored purposes so you know what i said). and i don't give a flying **** what these people think. they're the exact people that i'm rebelling against - well, most anyway. i've found a few exceptions. i can't believe that nobody understands what i'm talking about. this doesn't apply to college as much as high school, though. although i'm sure it still does apply to college in some way, according to what my lesson teacher says.

bravo, rhcpcure2826. i didn't expect such a remark from a music major, honestly. your post brings hope into the world of musicians, and my posts have been more about attitude than anything - i think you'll understand what i'm talking about, unless that was all an act, because i noticed you had some of my attitude in your reply from my other posts...but yes, i do have some hope for music majors now. i still doubt anyone understands what i'm talking about, though. but just so we clear things up, i never did say that i was an almighty sax player. i know i'm not. and anyone who does think they are is not going to make it. there's always room for improvement. you probably are a better soloist than i am, i'm admitting that. but that's not a fair argument considering the difference in experience. that would be like me comparing you to michael brecker. it's just not in the same area. honestly, though, you're another that has proven my theory about musicians wrong and for that i applaude you. then again, there are always people like zappa that come around a **** everything up...
**** you, zappa.

rat pack lives

[pianoplyr77]

Back on the opic of theory, could some one give me some ways I could incorperate more chromatism to my soloing?

[Saxamassima3]

Back on the opic of theory, could some one give me some ways I could incorperate more chromatism to my soloing?

you could try playing a solo only using chromatics...that might help. i don't really know of any ways to train for using chromaticism other than playing the chromatic scale over and over again or doing what i said.

[Genxcide2424]

Back on the opic of theory, could some one give me some ways I could incorperate more chromatism to my soloing?

There are coutless ways to add chromaticism to your playing, but for the sake of your own style you'd be best off figuring out ways to do it through your own experimentation. The following are just some basic concepts to elaborate on:


Take a scale and add passing tones to it. eg. The minor pentatonic becomes the blues scale, the standard diatonics become bebop scales => an inside passage becomes something more exotic sounding..


Accidentals: Instead of a note that would be diatonicly correct, or relevant to the individual chord, play a semitone above or below that note. Generally speaking, the original note will be implied, while the phrase is saying something completely differant.

...
Though there is a theoretical explanation for even the most 'outside' notes, that explanation will often be the last thing on the musician's mind as he plays it. Essentially, don't think too hard about it.

[jazzfunkboy]

what does teh term "ALT" mean when applied to chords and scales? is it when you alter a scale to suit your purposes?

[pianoplyr77]

thanks genxcide

[Tarquin1986]

Try this over a modal vamp: play a lick in they key, then move it u by a minor 3rd without changing any notes to make it fit the key. Move it up another minor 3rd and another until you are playing the lick you started with an octave up. Alternatively try it with major thirds.

Also try playing a lick in the key (eg a C major lick over a Cmajor vamp) followed by one in a really clashing key (eg a Locrian lick over the Cmajor vamp). Keep it up for while and make it sort of like you are trading licks with yourself.

[rhcpcure2826]

what does teh term "ALT" mean when applied to chords and scales? is it when you alter a scale to suit your purposes?


Alt = "altered"

An altered chord is a 7th chord of any kind with alterations, including b5, #5, b9, and #9.

Examples:G7#9 G7(#9, #5), G7b9, G13(#9, b5)...

[rhcpcure2826]

Back on the opic of theory, could some one give me some ways I could incorperate more chromatism to my soloing?

Beginner chromaticism:

Take basic progressions... ii V I, or even 12 bar blues, and play corresponding arpeggios over each chord. Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 (for ii-V-I) or Bb7, Eb7, F7 (for 12 bar). 12-bar is better for beginners.

Play a Bb7 arepggio over Bb7, an Eb7 arpeggio over Eb7, etc. Work out shapes for each arpeggio, as you would scales.

Then, begin to add chromatics. The b3 over each chord. So you have Bb7 arpeggio, along with a Db (the b3) to go with it. Easy chromatic there. Then, apply the b5 chromatic over each chord. So, to Bb7 arpeggio you add E, to the Eb7 arpeggio you add G, and for the F7 arpeggio you add B.

Then, try adding the 7th as a passing tone. To the Bb7 arpeggio, add A, to the Eb7 arpeggio, add D, and to the F7 arpeggio, add E.

Then, you can add in the perfet fourth to help you get smooother transitions.

That's how I learned.

[HaVIC5]

Alt = "altered"

An altered chord is a 7th chord of any kind with alterations, including b5, #5, b9, and #9.

Examples:G7#9 G7(#9, #5), G7b9, G13(#9, b5)...
Just clarifying this for some jazz newbs, one can only use the b5, the #5, the b9 or the #9, or a mixture of several. They are called alterations, like rhcpcure2826 said. It's based off the altered scale, or 7th mode of the melodic minor, that goes 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7, and is a favorite scale of many modernists because of its eerie sound and tension. What's great about it, is that because it just reeks of tension, chromaticisms work far better here than anywhere else, and it is actually relatively easy to get away with playing any note possible over this one chord, provided you approach it in a logical maner.

[C. OSullivan]

Is tritone substitution only used for dominant chords or is it just more common?

Only dominant. Here's why:

The strongest tones of each chord are respectively (strongest to weakest):

1. Third
2. Seventh
3. Extension(s)
4. Root
5. Fifth

A dom. chord's degrees are 1-3-5-b7. Let's take a G7 chord:

G-B-D-F. This means that B (the third) and F (the 7th) are the strongest degrees. Most important, if you will. There is a tritone between the 3rd and 7th in a dominant chord, to to the fact that the 7th is flat. So, if we take a G7 chord, and find the 7th chord a tritone up (Db7), we have the notes:
Db, F, Gb, B. Notice, the F and B have been retained and the Db7 chord, when used properly, may be substituted for a G7 chord.

So, why can't we do this with major chords? Looking at Cmaj7, for example, we have C-E-G-B. The strongest degrees are then E and B. We should retain those notes for the substitute chords. However, looking at the maj7 chord a tritone up, F#maj7, we have F#, A, C#, and E#. This is why tritone sub works only with dominant chords.

The tritone is the only interval that is the same up as it is going down. Which is why this works.

[OnePartHarmony]

Not sure if this counts as actual theory, but shouldn't a good jazz solo have structure to it? Solid beginning, laid-back middle, climactic end, that sort of thing?

I guess it only bothers me when there's a drum solo and it just sort of...sucks. There's really no other way to put it. I'm positive you can shape a drum solo. So why don't people do it more often? If I wanted to hear incessant banging, I'd put down the guitar and pick up the sticks.

[C. OSullivan]

^Yeah but there shouldn't be a "standard" structure for soloing, you know.

[OnePartHarmony]

I know, that was just a generic example. You could do all kinds of crazy stuff.

[hookahheaddd]

Yep, the entire jazz crew is pretty young :thumb:.

you guys are freaking amazing...ive played for about a year and a half and my teacher has barely touched on any of this stuff with me...he must know im a dummy. haha well thanks for all of your schtuff cuz its really helpful :thumb: (esp since my teacher is currently touring in italy)

[Brewer14]

Im taking a jazz improv class this year, and while trying to get prepared for it, I came across this site. Its really helpful for playing jazz, and learning theory.

http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/

[C. OSullivan]

Oh yes, to expand upon my tritone substitution post: Tritone sub. obviously works with diminished chords. However, not with m7b5 chords.

There must be a tritone between the 3rd and the 7th.

This includes: Dominant chords (1, 3, 5, b7) and diminished chords (1, b3, b5, bb7).

[6Stringer]

Im taking a jazz improv class this year, and while trying to get prepared for it, I came across this site. Its really helpful for playing jazz, and learning theory.

http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/

Ah man beaten to it. I was just about to post that as well. That is a very helpful site. Full of theory, history and improv lessons as well.

[jam9383]

Does anyone know where I can find some good backing tracks for jazz ,and some rock/blues

[pianoplyr77]

The Jamey Aebersold series is very good and has backing tracks for a lot of standards. You might want to check those out.

[jam9383]

is there a chance thats on soulseek

[jam9383]

suppose I played Cm7-F7-G9-Amb5
could I play C Dorian-F Mixolydian-G Mixolydian-A Locrian


but this would this be technically
Bb Ionian with emphasis on Cm chord tones
Bb Ionian with emphasis on F7 chord tones
C Ionian with emphasis on G chord tones
and A# Ionian with emphasis on Amb5 chord tones

or I could I also play Cm Penta- F Blues- G Penta- A Locrian

[C. OSullivan]

^It's best not to look at a chord and think "corresponding mode"...

You should first look at chord tones.

C Dorian is good for any ii-V change (in this case, Cm7-F7). However, you should concentrate more on changing your C Dorian to a Dorian-related chord outline and include other notes more as passing tones. You should also include various chromatics... altered tones... whatever. But if you want to retain the idea of Dorian, include Cm7 as well as A (6) and Gb (b5) and also F (4). So it will be more Dorian-sounding than anything else (at least it's easier to gain a Dorian sound).

But playing A Locrian over Am7b5 isn't a sure bet, surprisingly. Your efficeincy in outlining chord tones is compromised, and the sounds left for that scale to deliver are more Bb Ionian than A Locrian, IMO.

The fact of the matter is, if you just play a series of modes that are all relative to eachother (the only non relative mode is G7), then your playing will be less involved, and sound more like you're just playing Bb Ionian (minus the G Mixolydian).

I'm not trying to say that you must move in this way with the chords without fail... I don't do that at all in my playing... but you're obviously going on a chord outlining flight, so you may as well do it more efficiently.

Also, B Ionian is not C Dorian. You should disasociate modes with the corresponding major scale. However, if you play a series of relative modes, it will sound more like the relative Ionian than anything.

Over that G9, you have a ton of options... I'd work around the coressponding arpeggio as well as G Dorian.

But, for the Cm7-F7 bit, I'd do something like this: Over Cm7, try an Ebmaj7 idea. And over F7, try an Emaj7 idea that's identical to the Ebmaj7 idea, but a half step up. This delivers the Aeolian, then Altered sound. If you were to resolve to a Bb instead of G9, you might also try the original Ebmaj7 idea, but for Fmaj7 instead, to deliver a Lydian feel.

[jam9383]

thanks ill try some of those ideas

[ColdShotStrat]

What would be the best scale to use over 13th and 9th chords?

[Tarquin1986]

I got a question. I been looking for standards to learn and the problem i've encountered is that they all seem to have too many chords or too little for my purposes. Dave Brubeck's Take 5 is a good example. Cool song but no real sense of chords changing to play with. At the other extreme is I got rhythm where you change chord about 40 times before you reach the end and I can't memorize all that. Any solutions to my problem, or just examples of standards with less changes will be much appreciated.

[Omega Red]

What would be the best scale to use over 13th and 9th chords?
a 9th is a 2nd, and a 13th is a 6th, so anything that would display the correct 13th, and the correct 9th. if it says C major 9, play a C major 7arpeggio and include the 9th in it. the C major scale is the best bet over that chord. if its b9, most likely its going to be C7b9 and your best bet would be the spanish phrygian. if it says #9 you're going to play you're most likely going to play a Lydian #9 meaning the chord is a C major #9. just add the correct 9th on to the triad you already play over a major chord. same with 13ths, C13 is a domiant chord with all the scale degrees of C dominant, C major 13 is a major chord with a major 13th added. hope that helps

[Omega Red]

I got a question. I been looking for standards to learn and the problem i've encountered is that they all seem to have too many chords or too little for my purposes. Dave Brubeck's Take 5 is a good example. Cool song but no real sense of chords changing to play with. At the other extreme is I got rhythm where you change chord about 40 times before you reach the end and I can't memorize all that. Any solutions to my problem, or just examples of standards with less changes will be much appreciated.
i have this same problem, i'm just now learning how to get out of it. You cant recognize chords individualy, you have to look at the context of the chord. In jazz there are a tone of 2,5,1's, if you can rocognize these patturns you can describe an entire song to your self by only using scale degrees. a 2,5,1 in the key of C is a Dmin7, G7, Cmaj. any minor chord folowed by a dominant chord a 4th away is a 2-5 even if it dosent conclude into the right chord. so now that we've established that we're in C maj let think of it like this.

2-5 into C, 6 dom ,2-5 of 1 into 3,2-5 into 2, 2-5 into C.
that is 13 chord, but how much easier is that than to remember each individual chord.

[Tarquin1986]

Thanks, I'll try that.

[Saxamassima3]

when is anybody gonna figure out that posting this **** isn't helping anyone and it's only creating an "i know more than you" competition? posting one simple scale suggestion for a chord doesn't help anyone. it just adds more confusion. that person will not be able to get away from that one scale when he/she sees that one chord now.

my suggestion, stop giving your "lessons" and leave the teaching to the professionals - or to someone that knows what they're talking about, not what they picked up one day in theory class.

of course, simple questions and answers are ok, but the other stuff is just a bunch of cocky bull****.

i just thought i'd add that C.O. sullivan knows what he's talkin about :thumb: don't think chord=scale.

[pianoplyr77]

my suggestion, stop giving your "lessons" and leave the teaching to the professionals - or to someone that knows what they're talking about, not what they picked up one day in theory class.


I thought that was what the thread was for, to give tips. Obviously there are very few professionals on these message boards, so I think everyone should be free to post what they know.

[C. OSullivan]

What would be the best scale to use over 13th and 9th chords?

They're just dominant chords, in essence... so you have countless options. First, you should look at what a dominant chord is--

Dominant chords in basic non-jazz theory are generally meant to be used in a "tension/resolution" context. This means that a G7 is most logically followed by a C major chord. However, in jazz, dominant chords are used for many reasons. They're commonly used as the I, IV, V, and VI chords (that is, in the key of C, that C F, G, and A would be C7, F7, G7, and A7, usually). In jazz, dominant chords also work as substitutes for minor chords. At other times, they are used for tritone substitution. Also, they are used for the tension/resolution idea... you might have G7 #9 #5 lead into Cm7, a harmonic minor movement. So basically, dominant chords are used in many contexts in jazz.

Now, if you're using, say, G13 in the key of C, then you could use G Dorian ideas, G Mixolydian, C# Lydian Dominant (Melodic tritone substitution), as well as altered scale ideas.

The key to soloing while following harmonic form is to have a good idea of what notes work consistently... this would be the corresponding mode, chord tones, etc... so you'd work around those in the beginning. Then you could consider other things like the altered scale... and creating ideas.

For example, if you have G7 followed by Cm7, you could play Abm7 tones followed by Db7 tones over the G7 chord. So melodic substitutions should be considered.

Just some things to look at.

[ColdShotStrat]

Im really having trouble memorizing all the notes on the fret board and it seems when i get into an improvising situation i cant remember where notes are and when i do im already a few bars behind and it sounds bad. So I was wondering if anyone had any ways they could tell me on how they got used to improvising and thinking about the notes at the same time easily and also how did they memorize the notes on the fretboard.

[jazzfunkboy]

Im really having trouble memorizing all the notes on the fret board and it seems when i get into an improvising situation i cant remember where notes are and when i do im already a few bars behind and it sounds bad. So I was wondering if anyone had any ways they could tell me on how they got used to improvising and thinking about the notes at the same time easily and also how did they memorize the notes on the fretboard.


that just takes work, memorizing the notes. in time you will know them anyways if you just keep playing in that setting.

but as far as improvising and knowing the notes- learn your scales and say them aloud.

but if you just keep playing it becomes second nature. so give it some time i guess.

[d-1]

Nicee

[superjoe]

Heres a question---

Does anyone know of any theory books that take you all the way from baby steps to the most complex stuff and every detail in between?

[the untolf]

play metal lol jazz is boring

[Krabsworth]

play metal lol jazz is boring

Leave.

[starless and bible black]

play metal lol jazz is boringlol mate dont worry we already know your queer.

[rulis]

hello could someone give a list of jazz chords

[starless and bible black]

E7sharp9, dunno if theres any others













theres friggin millions.

[pianoplyr77]

http://www.apassion4jazz.net/chords.html

The basics with no alterations (#9, b5, etc.)

[dhelix33]

I played soprano sax in college. Recently decided to revisit the soprano sax and purchased one a couple months ago - and have been getting used to the horn (as well as allowing the horn to get used to me ;-). Although I put down the sax for years I have been playing the C Flute non-stop. I have rediscovered the transposition factor between C and B flat instruments in this process.

Do you know of a resource that can help me find theory notes and sheet music for this B flat instrument?

Thanks!

[dragonzmad]

can someone explain tritone substitution and give an example of a song or make a few bars that use it

[badasspanda]

In Jazz the most utilized chord progression is the II-V-I, usually incorporating the Minor-Dominant-Major format. My question is can there be any variations to this rule?

[spastic]

In Jazz the most utilized chord progression is the II-V-I, usually incorporating the Minor-Dominant-Major format. My question is can there be any variations to this rule?


What do you mean by "rule"? You definitely can mix up the II-V-I, it doesn't have to be minor-dominant-major, though that is the most common. A minor II-V-I usually looks like half-diminished-dominant(b9)-minor(major7). You can pretty much do whatever you want, though.

[Diatonic Dissonance™]

I played soprano sax in college. Recently decided to revisit the soprano sax and purchased one a couple months ago - and have been getting used to the horn (as well as allowing the horn to get used to me ;-). Although I put down the sax for years I have been playing the C Flute non-stop. I have rediscovered the transposition factor between C and B flat instruments in this process.

Do you know of a resource that can help me find theory notes and sheet music for this B flat instrument?

Thanks!
You know, B flat isn't a note for horn players, it's a way of life ;).

/I love you Austin.

[pkwiatek0222]

hey guys im fairly new to this. ive been playing bass for bout a yr and a half, i had a great teacher who taught me a bunch of jaco pastorius, red hot chili peppers n such. im playing bass in a jazz band for school, so im studying the proper approach to jazz bass as well as taking music theory courses in high school. i understood most of the stuff thats in here, n i have to say i appreciate the info. i was wondering, does ne1 suggest any drills so i can better my playing?

thanks

[ani_starkiller]

Spastic:


I'm sorry to have to burst your bubble, but your grasp of music theory is as primitive as a rock. You fail to even touch upon the surface of enharmonic intervals; an imperative in jazz, and how it can be interrelated with tritone substitution. I suggest that you comprehend musical theory in its entirety beforehand you elevate yourself to the status of "Theory Guru".

P.S:
I have listened to your 'compositions' and I can only designate them with the term: pretentious. Your music is solely comprised of incoherent and dampening injections whose singular purpose is to impress upon the audience a sense of superiority. That, sir, is the mark of failure.

chill out...

[ani_starkiller]

play metal lol jazz is boring

*sigh*

[ColdShotStrat]

What scale degrees are the best for tension and release? I know the tonic and dominant notes are best for release but I often end up abusing them and then my phrases start to sound boring. So which notes are the best to build the tension and which will give me the highest tension? So i guess im asking for a chart in a way of the scale degrees starting from least the ones that will give the least tension up to the notes that will create the most.

[fingerstyle]

hey guys im fairly new to this. ive been playing bass for bout a yr and a half, i had a great teacher who taught me a bunch of jaco pastorius, red hot chili peppers n such. im playing bass in a jazz band for school, so im studying the proper approach to jazz bass as well as taking music theory courses in high school. i understood most of the stuff thats in here, n i have to say i appreciate the info. i was wondering, does ne1 suggest any drills so i can better my playing?

thanks

hmmm not sure what you mean by 'drills'.. but meh...

some technical work that has helped me alot in many areas of my jazz playing includes..

-playing chord arpeggios and scales over 2 or more octaves ascending and descending. it helps to get out of that trap that most bass players fall into by just playing within a 'pattern'... this exercise will help you learn the fingerboard so that your improv and walking walking bass is alot more interesting.

-for rhythm and timing, practice playing scales/arpeggios/licks/whatever VERY slowly with a metronone or drum machine (60bpm or less). most people can play competently at mid-tempo, and most can bluff quite well at high speeds, but its quite hard to get your playing absolutley on time when your playing at 35 bpm. working at this skill will improve your ability to anticipate where the beat will fall at 'normal' speeds. in jazz, and especially walking bass it is great to be able to play SLIGHTLY after the beat (not faster, just place the note differntly) toi create that 'driving' feeling you need from walking bass. timing is one of the most inportant aspects of jazz bass.

-ummm im getting bored of writing and ill come back to this later.

[rockinbass17]

hey guys im fairly new to this. ive been playing bass for bout a yr and a half, i had a great teacher who taught me a bunch of jaco pastorius, red hot chili peppers n such. im playing bass in a jazz band for school, so im studying the proper approach to jazz bass as well as taking music theory courses in high school. i understood most of the stuff thats in here, n i have to say i appreciate the info. i was wondering, does ne1 suggest any drills so i can better my playing?

thanks

I have one that I use on my upright. I play the G major scale (starting on open G going all the way up on the G string), putting two open D's and an open A between each degree of the scale, and 1 D after. The excercise is in 3/4, each note being an eight note. The D's land on every upbeat, and each degree of the scale lands on 1 and 3.

1 and 2 and 3 and 1 and 2 and 3 and 1 and 2 and 3 and
G D A D G D A D A D A D B D A D B D
0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 2 0 0 0 2 0

This greatly improved my right hand, thus improving my tone and chops tremendously. I know I didn't explain it very well, but it's a great exercise. It can be used for upright or electric.

EDIT: Goddam it, it isn't lining up right. Ah well, each consecutive beat correspnds to each consecutive note and fingering.

[darrell]

chill out...

:lol:

That post was like two years old. I think he's chilled out by now...

[dancer4eva]

hey... i just registerd!! oh guess what!!! i was looking forward to having a flute lesson today (cos i was gonna get some new music off my teacher, beside the fact i had a truely horrible art CRT teaching us at the same time...) and i went there and my Flute teacher was on some camp!! *grrr* so i had to go back to class and the CRT was sooooo mean!!! *double grr!* and i neva ended up getin more music!! :(

[dancer4eva]

anyway, there was a point!! does anyone know where i can find some good flute music that it sort of jazzy??

[dancer4eva]

that is not tooo expensive anways

[AmericanWeiner]

anyway, there was a point!! does anyone know where i can find some good flute music that it sort of jazzy??

Pick up The Real Book...music is music, regardless of the instrument.

[ColdShotStrat]

How do you identify chord progressions? For example what would the progression of Bb13 Eb13 D7+9 G7 C9 Bb13 F7 Bb13 F7 be? Im talking about the numerical value if you kow wha i mean.

[PDWAB]

How do you identify chord progressions? For example what would the progression of Bb13 Eb13 D7+9 G7 C9 Bb13 F7 Bb13 F7 be? Im talking about the numerical value if you kow wha i mean.

Um, usually you don't. If you know how to notate secondary dominants in figured bass you could, but honestly it's kind of a waste of time in my opinion.

[pianoplyr77]

assuming this song is in Bb, you have to look at the Bb scale

Bb=I(1)
C=ii(2)
D=iii(3)
Eb=iv(4) I can't remember weather this one is minor or dominant
F=V(5)
G=vi(6)
A=vii(7)
Bb=I(1)

All you have to do is find the corresponding number to the chord.

Cm7 F7 Bb7 becomes ii V I (2 5 1)

Upper-case letter are are used as major or dominant, where as lower-case are for minor.

Here is your chord progression: I IV III VI II I V I V

[KingOfSka]

Are there two versions of "When You're Smilin" by Louis Armstrong? I downloaded the song, and it was alot slower than the version I heard. Is there a slow and a fast version?

I really don't know if this is the right place to ask this, but I've never posted in the Jazz & Funk Forum, and I saw no Louis Armstrong or Community Thread, so I decided to ask here.

[AmericanWeiner]

There are probably several versions. That's the nature of Jazz.

Can you tell if its roughly the same song?

F
G
Ab
Bb
C
D
Eb

Eb/Cm, right? What if the root is F?

[TooFarGone]

Any mandolin players? I got a mandolin for christmas, and only know a few scales and chords. Any essential techniques/scales/chords or artists that I should listen to and learn?




Oh, I've played guitar for 2 years, so the mandolin isnt too difficult for me.....yet anyway.

[Saxamassima3]

can someone explain tritone substitution and give an example of a song or make a few bars that use it


pretty much, all you do is substitute a chord with its tritone.

i.e.

a basic ii-V7-I:
(D)m-(G)7-(C)

the tritone sub would most likely be used over the dominant chord as such:
(D)m-(Db)7-(C)

basically, just replace a chord with a tritone. you could also use the parker cycle, in which case you substitute the chord with its minor third:
(D)m-(Bb)7-(C)

[Saxamassima3]

What scale degrees are the best for tension and release? I know the tonic and dominant notes are best for release but I often end up abusing them and then my phrases start to sound boring. So which notes are the best to build the tension and which will give me the highest tension? So i guess im asking for a chart in a way of the scale degrees starting from least the ones that will give the least tension up to the notes that will create the most.

3 and 7. i don't know the exact chart - look it up.:chug:

[Hurricane]

im guessing that you are getting most of your info from "The Jazz Theory Book" by mark levine published by The Sher Music Co. considering your avatar?

[ballistictesting]

I think I just became a better guitar player in the last forty five minutes as I did over the last two years. I would have had to pay some banker with a ponytail $45 an hour to explain that to me while I sat here with my guitar in drop C and him playing a standard tuned 5 string bass? I had a real stoner's understanding of all that ****. I got enough of it to pretend I knew what I was doing. F$%# A**

[ballistictesting]

F$%# A**

[spastic]

im guessing that you are getting most of your info from "The Jazz Theory Book" by mark levine published by The Sher Music Co. considering your avatar?


I have that book and really like the picture on the front. It's definitely not my only source or even main source of information, though.

[Kimsa]

Nice article, but one of the things i thought when reading it was that you said that the most obvious chord to follow aminor would be E7 and then back to aminor.. But the most usual chord should be eminor7 and then back to aminor to be basic, right? Even if the Eminor7-chord often is exchanged to E7 to make the changes a little bit more exciting. Im sure that you know of this and what you wrote about this was just a example, i´m correcting it for those who don´t know this and want to learn.

/Kim

[spastic]

That was part of Asa's article and he's long gone, but I'll try to answer for him. The E7 would mean that the entire progression (E7-Amin) is either melodic or harmonic minor. The dominant chord has a much stronger resolution than an Emin7 chord does. However, if you wanted to stay entirely "in key" (Amin being equivalent to C major), then you would use the Emin7 chord. But in most cases, and almost always if the progression stands alone, the E7 would be the better choice.

[jazzlife]

hey...i'm new to this forum and forums in general. I enjoy jazz as you all do (i see). I play the trumpet n the piano in our school band but it seems that i dont have a lot of people to discuss jazz with....
Question: Is this thread just about learning to play jazz or are there some deep jazz ppl ere?

Anyways...i like Bill Evans, Colatrane, Bill Frisell, John Abercrombie...n u ppl?

[spastic]

this thread's for pretty much anything that will help you play jazz, but mainly theory-related; any skill or knowledge level as well. you can talk about your favorite artists in other threads

[Tarquin1986]

I've noticed a lot of people asking what scales to use over differentchords and stuff like that. Probably asked something like that myself when this thread began. Basically though, this is the wrong question. Most great musicians don't think like that.

For improvising in a basic progression where all the chords are in the same key (eg. Autumn Leaves) here is how it's done. If the band are playing in D minor begin your solo with a D. In your mind's ear you should hear a note that will follow from that D nicely. Play that note. That note should trigger another note in your mind. Play that note, and so on for the rest ofyour jazz career. As you get used to the approach you should find yourself thinking more than one note in advance until eventually you are thinking 10 to 20 notes ahead. To check if you are doing it right guitarists and pianists can sing along with their improvisations, and the notes you sing should exactly match the notes you play.

Sometimes you'll come across music where you can't really hear much going on in your mind, or what is in your mind clashes with the chords. This usually happens at key changes or over out of key chords. I have difficulty with the strings of dominant chords in Charlie Parker tunes myself. The problem is I'm not aware of all the notes in the chord. When some people hear chords they only hear the bass note clearly. They can hear that there are other notes but they couldn't tell you what they are.

[Tarquin1986]

Other people only hear the highest note in thechord clearly but your solo needs to fit with all 4 notes in the chord. There are a couple of things you can do to fix this.
1.Play a random chord on guitar or piano. Sing the second lowest one. Can't do it? Then play the second lowest note on it's own. then play the chord again. This time you should be able to easily make out the note. Do this a couple of hundred times and your ear will improve and you will hear all the notes in the chord more clearly. If you find this really hard start with three note chords, they're easier.
2. Play the chord progression you're having trouble with in arpeggios, listening carefully. Memorize the arpeggio pattern so well you can sing it. This is called 'internalising the chords'. It's probably impractical to do this often but some things are worth doing it for, like the jazz version of the 12 bar blues and I Got Rhythm.

[Flash_Johnson]

almost posted some real information here but realized yous guys were way beyond logic on the improvizational theory tip---good luck! happy non-playing!!

[Alive]

Anyone care to recommend a theory book that will start off past basics but still explain stuff within simple terms (not too simple, not too complicated). I know a fair amount of music theory from MX and musictheory.net, but I'd like to focus on it more. I have a book on jazz, but it's heavily focused on technique for improv, which of course is no bad thing, but I need something else as well.

Someone mentioned "The Jazz Theory Book" by mark levine; is that good? I can get it from my local library, so that would be very convinient if it is useful.

[jazzfunkboy]

when is it considered proper to use either scale? which is more commonly used over an augmented chord with a minor seventh ( C7+5).

im not quite sure what im asking. but i guess any help with either of these scales would be great. thanks!

[Joseph India]

which is more commonly used over an augmented chord with a minor seventh ( C7+5).

the simple answer is - a whole-tone scale (a 6-note symetrical scale)
C D E F# G# Bb (or some might call the Bb an A# but it's all the same note)

And this may be a good time to start experimenting with "chromatic approaches" also. Do you know what "chromatic approaches" are?

[jazzfunkboy]

which is more commonly used over an augmented chord with a minor seventh ( C7+5).

the simple answer is - a whole-tone scale (a 6-note symetrical scale)
C D E F# G# Bb (or some might call the Bb an A# but it's all the same note)

And this may be a good time to start experimenting with "chromatic approaches" also. Do you know what "chromatic approaches" are?

is that like starting from a half step lower or higher than a chord tone? is that basically what the augmented scale is? and what of the second mode of that scale?

this stuff is very confusing to me. plus i cant find my book with all the scales listed!

[Joseph India]

Sort of.
No.
And there isn't much need to think about modes for a whole-tone scale in my opinion. (due to their symmetric nature there are really only 2 whole tone scales)
Chromatic approaches dont specifically have anything to do with whole-tone scales or any particular scales.
Chromatic approach just means you approach a note in the scale from a chromatic note as you feel (from a half step above or below). This is just a way for beginners to get a feel for using all of the notes instead of being confined to a scale. (There are also more complicated ways to use all 12 notes but dont worry about all that yet)Let your ear guide you.
Experiment with chromatic approaches to get an idea of what it "looks like" when you make those sounds, so that when you hear the sounds in your head, you will have that connection with what the sound "looks like", and you wont be searching, in key, for a note that you want to play that isn't in key.
Does this make sense?

[spawn7037]

I've been looking at musictheory.net and the only problem is the sightreading of bass there was only guitar, key board and brass.

And is anyone in the knowing of a lesson of applying scales to bass?


all you hae to do is take a guitar scale and apply it to bass tuning. usually your in E so just use the E,A,D and G strings. Its really not that hard.

[Hababi]

(There are also more complicated ways to use all 12 notes but dont worry about all that yet)


Care to post some more advanced chromatic approach stuff? :p
Essentially, that introduction was a brief guide to using leading tones...more for bass players, imo, but useful for guitarists, too.

I think there's some good stuff in this thread so far, but it's a bit intimidating for someone to work their way through 24 pages. If someone goes through and produces a complete 'mx jazz forum theory lessons' from this thread, I'll enter them in my pool of users to potentially give them a bigger avatar. It has to be complete, though, preferably ordered by section.

If this is done, someone with the sofware to make pdf files should make a handy 'guidebook' of jazz theory...and of course, all you jazz nuts should keep on posting lessons and tips.

[Joseph India]

Care to post some more advanced chromatic approach stuff?

Hmmm
I don't think I could explain it very well. When you start getting into this stuff, things get very subjective and I would mostly be explaining my specific aesthetic rather than giving general information on jazz theory. So all I could do is maybe write something about using the dominant altered 7 chord over a major chord, and even that seems pretty impossible to explain in a way that would ACTUALLY help anyone.

feel free to delete this post, I just posted it to answer Broadway's question

[Buh_Sheeky]

Anyone care to recommend a theory book that will start off past basics but still explain stuff within simple terms (not too simple, not too complicated). I know a fair amount of music theory from MX and musictheory.net, but I'd like to focus on it more. I have a book on jazz, but it's heavily focused on technique for improv, which of course is no bad thing, but I need something else as well.

Someone mentioned "The Jazz Theory Book" by mark levine; is that good? I can get it from my local library, so that would be very convinient if it is useful.

Well I use it in my Jazz Fundamentals class aka Jazz theory, so yeah, it's an alright resource. It'll teach you basic and not so basic techniques, but some(actually more) of the musical examples are lame-sounding and some things could be worded better :p but ya know it's good overall, IMO, also his piano book isn't too bad either...why the hell is my school so on Mark Levine?!? :eek: j/k

[v055m4n]

some of you guys that are young and already know all that jazz stuff, you are lucky you get to have that upbringing, some are unfortunate and dont get that chance and some argue about who is wiser. i tried for jazz band in high school and got rejected.

saddest day of my life.

of course i am not here for sympathy but i want to know if anybody knows some of the chords for the intro "The Touch of Your Lips" as sang by Tony Bennet? or the whole song...

[gaslight]

Anyone care to recommend a theory book that will start off past basics but still explain stuff within simple terms (not too simple, not too complicated). I know a fair amount of music theory from MX and musictheory.net, but I'd like to focus on it more. I have a book on jazz, but it's heavily focused on technique for improv, which of course is no bad thing, but I need something else as well.

Someone mentioned "The Jazz Theory Book" by mark levine; is that good? I can get it from my local library, so that would be very convinient if it is useful.

Yeah, I have that book. I'm only a little way into learning about jazz and I've found it very helpful so far.

[spastic]

some of you guys that are young and already know all that jazz stuff, you are lucky you get to have that upbringing, some are unfortunate and dont get that chance and some argue about who is wiser. i tried for jazz band in high school and got rejected.

saddest day of my life.

of course i am not here for sympathy but i want to know if anybody knows some of the chords for the intro "The Touch of Your Lips" as sang by Tony Bennet? or the whole song...


For many of us it had nothing to do with our upbringing. In fact, if I had followed what was expected of me musically I wouldn't be playing the guitar, and definitely wouldn't be playing jazz. You can definitely learn jazz on your own.

[PDWAB]

Yeah I didn't start playing jazz until this year and I'm doing fine. It's more of your level of commitment to it than anything else I think.

[Firecracker]

I think I'm going to do a degree in music composition: jazz and classical, if there is such a thing.

[Kobaia]

I think I'm going to do a degree in music composition: jazz and classical, if there is such a thing.
you can double major

[xen0s]

I think I'm going to do a degree in music composition: jazz and classical, if there is such a thing.

For some strange reason I find composing for classical very easier than jazz. Maybe because classical has a lot of strict guidelines you need to adhere to, thus leaving you with not many places to run off to, whilst with jazz..that's a whole different story. :thumb:

[gaslight]

Where I go you can do a Bachelor Of Music (Composition) but it doesn't offer composition of particular styles specifically.

[xen0s]

Where I go you can do a Bachelor Of Music (Composition) but it doesn't offer composition of particular styles specifically.

My college does that too, but I think they're just trying to give you a broader range of subjects so that you won't be just confined to one style of music.

[gaslight]

Yeah, I think it's a good thing too. It would be a bit of drain on the resources to have seperate courses because it would involve organising twice as many classes, extra teachers, things like that.

[Firecracker]

Yeah in classical it is sufficiently easier, there may be such a larger orchestra (in some cases). But with Jazz yes, there's whole tonality of it and the instruments need using, the syncopation, i haven't actually heard much jazz which i like, but it is always a good oppertunity to be able to compose such a narrow/popular/tricky style.

[xen0s]

That is very true. Well then again I've only had assignents where I had to compose two-part inventions based on Bach's work, while I've had some contemporary assignments where I had to analyze and rearrange songs like On Green Dolphin Street, Straight No Chaser and stuff like that.

It really boils down to your interest in the end :)

[JustWondering]

well im just touching the surface of the melodic minor scale, and i would really appreciate some help.

1. is there a seperate or similar standard solfeggio for melodic minor scale, as there is for major scales? And if its not would it be bad to improvise something based on solfeggio from the major scales for instance:
La ti do re mi la ti do
------------(fa)--(la)-----

So what i began saying was La ti do re mi la ti La, on the way up because it at least prepared me for the correct interval step. and it worked real well. i just play it down without voicing anything....

If you get what i am saying......I learned the basic sound of the scale that way, but im not sure if that will conflict with me later learning the scales modulations. So should i keep voicing it that way in my head?

Also does anyone know the chords that are built on the tones of the melodic minor scale?

[Tarquin1986]

In ascending order

1.minor
2.minor
3.augmented
4.dominant
5.dominant
6.flat 5
7.flat 5

[spastic]

and the 7th chords

1: Min(Maj7)
2: Min7
3: Maj7#5
4: 7 #11 (Dominant)
5: 7 b13 (Dominant)
6: Min7 b5
7: Min7 b5

however, the 7th degree is better characterized as a dominant 7 with every possible tension (b9 #9 #11 b13). Also known as the altered scale, so whenever you see something like G7alt. it is referring to this scale.

[spastic]

and I'm not all that familiar with singing solfeggio syllables, but I would think that it would be better to sing do re me fa so la ti do. it makes more sense to put the do as your root.

[JustWondering]

and I'm not all that familiar with singing solfeggio syllables, but I would think that it would be better to sing do re me fa so la ti do. it makes more sense to put the do as your root.

Thanks for the info guys!

hmmm. well since by name it is a minor scale i would think that you would start on La, as you would the natural minor scale. but since the melodic minor scale sounds major as well, maybe not. I dont know too much about solfeggio but what would make the most sense to me as a musician is having a seperate set of acronyms that would flow easily with the standard solfeggio, so to make it easyer to move back and forth easily. whether this exhists or not i have no idea.

[xen0s]

JustWondering: If I'm not mistaken (and what I've learnt in ear training class), you still sing the root of a minor scale as Do :)

Otherwise it's just confusing. It's jus the sound of your Do needs to sound like the root of the scale, and from there you progress.

[JustWondering]

Alright cool.
thanks for the help guys.

its taking some getting used to but im singing the melodic minor starting on Do and its actually starting to sound familiar this way. has anyone actually learned the melodic minor scale using solfeggio though? Mabey I should just learn the sound without it.

[xen0s]

I've learnt one or two, but I mainly practice the major scales. Figured I'd master that first before moving along.

There are some benefits to learning the scale w/o solfege and just by sound alone, but if you want to transcribe something, I'm guessing if you got the solfege down, you'd more or less be able to pen it to paper w/o actually having to touch an instrument.

Just my two cents ;)

[Firecracker]

do ray me far so la te do

[pgm]

Wow. This thread kicks ***. I have a lot to sort through, though, and it will probably take me a long time. Really helpful stuff, though. I wish I had a better music theory education. I never really paid much attention to it, though. I learned basic major scales and the intervals.

I better learn all my scales. I'm a trumpet player, and it will really help with creativity. I keep getting stuck on blues scales--mostly the basic C and G (Bb and F for other instruments). I need a lot of work.

[pianoplyr77]

do ray me far so la te do



Ha, you spelled five of those wrong.

Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do

[JustWondering]

Hey if anyones interested i actually found a chart that has a solfeggio for every scale degree. its pretty interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege

looks like the "official" way to do the melodic minor is "Do Re Mé Fa Sol La Ti Do" where the only difference is in the third degree. and pretty subtle too.

looks like they have two ways for the natural minor:
The natural minor scale: Do Re Mé Fa Sol Le Te Do
The natural minor scale in a "fixed" system: La Ti Do Re Mi Fa Sol La

I guess i was taught in a fixed system. hahah, right. You gotta love wikipedia.

[Soulfly666]

well im just touching the surface of the melodic minor scale, and i would really appreciate some help.

1. is there a seperate or similar standard solfeggio for melodic minor scale, as there is for major scales? And if its not would it be bad to improvise something based on solfeggio from the major scales for instance:
La ti do re mi la ti do
------------(fa)--(la)-----

So what i began saying was La ti do re mi la ti La, on the way up because it at least prepared me for the correct interval step. and it worked real well. i just play it down without voicing anything....

If you get what i am saying......I learned the basic sound of the scale that way, but im not sure if that will conflict with me later learning the scales modulations. So should i keep voicing it that way in my head?

Also does anyone know the chords that are built on the tones of the melodic minor scale?

For melodic minor, the solfege that I was taught is as follows:

Ascending: Do Re Me Fa Sol La Ti Do
Descending: Do Te Le Sol Fa Me Re Do

I find that the melodic minor scale is probably the hardest scale to keep the correct intonation, at least for me it is. As soon as you sing that Me, you're thinking natural or harmonic minor, but I'm sure with some practice one could get it. The La Ti Do bit is good to keep in your head, I would even add the Sol. It has a very distinct sound when you're in the minor mode, so it'll help you recognize it better. I would try starting from the Do though, but knowing the scale starting from any syllable is never a bad thing. :p

Edit: Aww, I just saw your last post, oh well. :p

[smith_]

hey guys, im fairly new to jazz but i can grasp the basic concepts of how chords are built and the major scale and improvisation.

my question is:
i think that when soloing over a chord, you usually want to emphasize the notes in that chord, correct? if so, i have a second question to this, when should u play notes that sound (im having a hard to explaining this) odd but still "good" or as if it was on purpose, and how do u know which notes to play?

[what]

Yeah in classical it is sufficiently easier, there may be such a larger orchestra (in some cases). But with Jazz yes, there's whole tonality of it and the instruments need using, the syncopation, i haven't actually heard much jazz which i like, but it is always a good oppertunity to be able to compose such a narrow/popular/tricky style.

You don't even realize how horribly wrong you are.

[pianoplyr77]

hey guys, im fairly new to jazz but i can grasp the basic concepts of how chords are built and the major scale and improvisation.

my question is:
i think that when soloing over a chord, you usually want to emphasize the notes in that chord, correct? if so, i have a second question to this, when should u play notes that sound (im having a hard to explaining this) odd but still "good" or as if it was on purpose, and how do u know which notes to play?


Yes, you are correct when saying that you emphasise chord tones. As for your second question, I think what you are trying to ask is how to make playing "outside" of the chord changes sound good. The fact is, people like Michael Brecker who do this a lot are very good as selling it. Obviously, if you play a long accented Bb over a Cmaj7 chord its not going to sound that great, but doing things like playing an arpegio and moving it up in half steps will work and sound good as long as you play with confidence. The more you experiment with and practice it the better it will sound.

If any of that didn't make sense, please ask me to explain.

[smith_]

that does make sense.however, ive got another question, partly to do with my first.

my question is:
right now im working on a song with the following progresson:

Bbmaj7 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Bbmaj7 Gm7 | C7 F7

Bb Bb7 | Eb7 Ebm7 | Bb6 Gm7 | Cm7 F7
Bb Bb7 | Eb7 Ebdim | Bb F7 | Bb6

D7 | G7 | C7 | F7 |

Bbmaj7 Gm7 | Cm7 F7 | Bbmaj7 Gm7 | C7 F7
Bb Bb7 | Eb7 Ebm7 | Bb6 Gm7 | Cm7 F7

It's kinda long sorry, but I was wondering what I should play over each chord (just maybe the first line of chords, I know it's tedious) and what would i play to make it sound more exotic, and possibly why. Sorry for being a bother...

[Joseph India]

I'll give some suggestion for the first line.
Notice there is no key change, it's all in Bb. When you have a simple
I VI II V progression (all with 7th degrees added) I recommend you get used to sort of thinking of the whole thing as Bb.
After a while you will be able to just think of the key of Bb and flow through the feel of the progression (without hitting any notes you dont want to) instead of thinking of the chords individually "2 beats of Bbmaj7, 2 beats of Gm7, 2 beats of Cm7 ..." Some people have trouble being creative when they start out because they try so hard to play exactly with these changes.
Sorry if you already know all of this.
And as for playing "out" notes one thing you can do in this case is experiment with playing an F7 altered scale over the Bb major scale (I'm still just referring to the first line). F7 altered scale - F. Gb. G#. A. B. Db. Eb. F
There is no right way to play "wrong" notes. It's all about experimenting with the sound of it.
You'll eventually know how you want to use this technique.
For example you may want to avoid hitting "out" notes over the the tonic chord, and you may want to only use "out" notes in staccato rather than holding them.

And Pianoplyr77's comments were very true

[smith_]

I'll give some suggestion for the first line.
Notice there is no key change, it's all in Bb. When you have a simple
I VI II V progression (all with 7th degrees added) I recommend you get used to sort of thinking of the whole thing as Bb.
After a while you will be able to just think of the key of Bb and flow through the feel of the progression (without hitting any notes you dont want to) instead of thinking of the chords individually "2 beats of Bbmaj7, 2 beats of Gm7, 2 beats of Cm7 ..." Some people have trouble being creative when they start out because they try so hard to play exactly with these changes.
Sorry if you already know all of this.
And as for playing "out" notes one thing you can do in this case is experiment with playing an F7 altered scale over the Bb major scale (I'm still just referring to the first line). F7 altered scale - F. Gb. G#. A. B. Db. Eb. F
There is no right way to play "wrong" notes. It's all about experimenting with the sound of it.
You'll eventually know how you want to use this technique.
For example you may want to avoid hitting "out" notes over the the tonic chord, and you may want to only use "out" notes in staccato rather than holding them.

And Pianoplyr77's comments were very true

wow thanks a lot, i really appreciate the help. if you were wodnering, i recorded it and just soloed in Bb like u said, the recording is here: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=589302

is it wrong to not think too hard about the notes im playing whilst playing them? when i recorded this i just felt out the notes, and screwed up a bit but i think it turned out alright. i dont really know the notes that well at the moment, i just sort of know to emphasize the 7's and b7 when its applied and whatnot. so am i going in the wrong direction with this improv?