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As lists have become increasingly popular on the site, it’s become necessary to gently step in and make sure things are going in a constructive direction. As a result, I’ve posted the following set of brief guidelines on the list creation page.

List Guidelines
- Your list should be related to music in some way
- If you’d like to post comments, suggestions, or complaints about the site, use the site forum instead
- If you’d like to post something completely unrelated to music, use the community forums
- If you’d like to post something related to a specific user, use their shoutbox

Lists that violate these guidelines will be deleted — so please don’t try to skirt them. We want to encourage you to make lists, but we also want to make sure that lists remain a valuable and interesting resource for users. Lately, lists have included rants, half-hearted rankings, obscenities, video-game discussion, and everything in between. Additionally, the fact that lists appear on the front page of the site has led to a lot of abuse. Let’s keep the focus on the music — we have an entire set of wonderful forums for every offtopic conversation you can think of.

If these new rules prove to be too stifling for users, I would consider re-implementing user journals. It’s important that we build a strong sense of community and individual user expression– I just want to make sure that it is occurring in the right place. Lists are for music.





mynameischan
03.31.10
yeah don't be scared of the forums guys, they're not nearly as hostile as some people seem to think.

Knott-
03.31.10
wellsaidddd

TheBlackHoleofDeath7
03.31.10
Maybe they should make a bigger list section, that'd solve a lot of problems don't ya think?

Iluvatar
03.31.10
/In the same token mx, you have to make sure the mods on the forums dont go batshit on people who want to make threads about stuff that they normally would have made on sputnik for being derivate or something.

mx
03.31.10
How would a bigger list section solve things?

mx
03.31.10
Iluvatar, I think on the whole there could be better review site/forum integration

Foxhound
03.31.10
What are the forums?

mynameischan
03.31.10
bigger list section wouldn't solve shit, what are you talking about

Knott-
03.31.10
yeah absolute logic fail there

Iluvatar
03.31.10
I completely agree with that mx, but I think it really is more of a question of the mods/users there accepting that than anything else. I mean obviously more coded integration would help, but users there are definitely more prone to internet e-circles than here.

TheBlackHoleofDeath7
03.31.10
Well then there would be more space and there would be less users angry because their list got bumped off the front. I like the wide variety of lists.

JulesWin
03.31.10
forums are where all the cool users hang out, you know, the ones that are too good for the music site

mynameischan
03.31.10
yeah more space for people to submit stupid lists. if you wanna see more than just click the link that takes you to the Lists page so you can see all f them

Willie
03.31.10
Why couldn't there be an area on the review site where the last 10 forum posts are listed, so people may actually click over there.

Knott-
03.31.10
did you even read this blog post seriously

it's got nothing to do with space it's got everything to do with relevance

seriously what


Iluvatar
03.31.10
Willie, I do think we used to have that integrated onto the genre pages! But it never really worked that well, I think...

Knott-
03.31.10
@trey: damn good idea.

mx
03.31.10
What if we created a sputnik community forum -- where people from the review site could hang out? It would be bit redundant because we already have offtopic forums, but if people are worried about not fitting into the community, that could be one solution.

Willie, we have links to the forum on every genre page.

mynameischan
03.31.10
yeah it was on the genre pages but nobody looks at the genre pages i don't think

mynameischan
03.31.10
but i mean we already have the sputnikmusic forum with a community thread

only like 5 people post there idk why nobody knows about it

TheSpirit
03.31.10
an intergration would be interesting

EBTCardMania
03.31.10
The forums are just as good as the review site, it's just a different environment. You could hang out either place all day, although the humor is different for sure.

Electric City
03.31.10
blackholeofdeath with the worst idea ever

Waior
03.31.10
I agree with Trey. Most people won't trolly over on to the forums with their discussions if it means navigating 5 clicks away (woo laziness). Then again, the front page is getting rather crowded as is... perhaps if you posted in a forum topic, responses in that forum thread would show up in the 'My Discussions' tab? I can imagine for some people that would mean way too much clutter in 'My Discussions' but maybe it could be an enable/disable thing. Or not, I don't know. Bleagh.

Waior
03.31.10
mx's most recent post negates me and changes my mind, no importa!

Iluvatar
03.31.10
If you open up the sputnikmusic section of the website for just general off topic posting, that would probably get rid of a lot of the uselessness on the site. perhaps with a big bold link somewhere on the front page saying GO HERE TO POST RIDICULOUS THINGZ

mx
03.31.10
I'm fine with having forum posts on the main page (we have space under soundoffs), but it would have to be from a new sputnik community forum.

Iluvatar
03.31.10
because im more afraid the forum users will just get super pissy if too many site users flood in

mynameischan
03.31.10
but im torn tho cuz i don't want ppl bringing their stupid shit into me and charles' forum either

mx
03.31.10
Iluvatar, that's why we could have a separate forum. The reality is that the review site gets a lot more traffic than the forums (6 times more). The forums shouldn't dictate how the review site develops.

Waior
03.31.10
I would be interested in a review site forum. It would give us room to be useless in the comfort of our own community whilst not intruding on charles and channing.

Willie
03.31.10
yeah, that would work. I just think people that wouldn't click the "message boards" link and then navigate through all of the different areas may be prompted to click on a topic if they saw it come up along side all the other replies (lists, news, reviews, etc).

mynameischan
03.31.10
i'd be interested to see how a new forum pans out

Iluvatar
03.31.10
No I understand, but I agree with the developing the seperate forum for site users. I mean they can discuss all the music stuff on the site so we don't have to develop anything for that, just so they can have their own GD section I guess.

I just don't want to deal with a random chad-esque shitstorm because of this or something. not that id have to deal with it. yeah.

YouAreMySilence
03.31.10
Needed to be said, i mean I dont even click on lists anymore.

JulesWin
03.31.10
"GO HERE TO POST RIDICULOUS THINGZ"
sounds like a great idea!

bungy
03.31.10
What if I want to make purely a music list, but only about batman?

Knott-
03.31.10
The only thing John is that there's NOT really a place on sputnik for general discussion of music; it doesn't really exist. Granted, the staff blog provides new outlets for it but then you're waiting for a staff member to blog about what you wanna talk about... say for example I want to talk about the recording industry and how it pissed me off last week... I don't really have anywhere to post that sort of thing and my only option is to go across to the forums where there's a totally different community and attitude. The majority of music discussion here revolves around specific albums and news, and that's good - but it's the same reason I suggested a while back that we enable commenting on artist pages, because there are more general or tangential discussions to be had about music that don't really FIT anywhere at the moment.

Foxhound
03.31.10
I spilled all of my coffee while playing the Oregon Trail.

Iluvatar
03.31.10
I agree with your post Knott

mx
03.31.10
Knott-

All good points. I'd be open to either experimenting with comments on band pages, or a new forum for review site users. It seems kind of ridiculous on the surface to duplicate existing forums, but I see your point. The forums can be somewhat hostile -- it's leftover from the mxtabs era.

mx
03.31.10
Knott, one last point. Would the issues you are talking about be solved be reinstituting personal journals?

mynameischan
03.31.10
comments on band pages would probably be a disaster, a forum would work better.

SeaAnemone
03.31.10
a community forum-like thing on the review site that's been suggested sounds like the best option, I don't know how viable that is though.

nice job doing SOMETHING about the lists though, mx, they really were getting out of hand (not saying I wasn't included here or there haha).

Iluvatar
03.31.10
But you have to institute a place for general discussion, and one for music discussion. is that really feasible with the userbase?

Waior
03.31.10
Strikey, if mx implemented a review site forum for off topic discussion ("RIDICULOUS THINGZ"), you could also have a topic like that talked about in there. It was just be an all purpose sort of forum for anything that doesn't fit here...? With necessary moderation. Although I think I'd still want THIS the most...

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8369/thingz.jpg

EBTCardMania
03.31.10
I think a specific forum for the music site would solve a lot of the troll problems as well.

Iluvatar
03.31.10
That would be so unerringly perfect

mx
03.31.10
We can experiment with the additional forums later in the week. Feel free to keep posting your opinions though, I'd like to hear them

Skyler
03.31.10
The last thing the forums need are more subforums.

Knott-
03.31.10
Possibly, yeah. From memory, though, I don't think they used to be integrated well enough for it to provide a visible and effective means of discussion. Think that was before the revamp, though; I didn't really use them that much so I'm not really sure even when they disappeared. A more prominent journal section might well ease some of the tendencies to post what's currently 'off-topic' material, though.

Sort of agreed, chan. In fact, almost entirely; one long thread of comments about how awesome Thrice are is a pretty redundant function.

Skyler
03.31.10
There is hardly enough discussion to warrant the ones that we already do have.

Iluvatar
03.31.10
they wouldnt really be subforums to the forums though.

mynameischan
03.31.10
well this would be different than the stupid circlejerk that the existing forums have become


EBTCardMania
03.31.10
The reason people "troll" or post stuff irrelevant to music discussion is because they're either bored or feel a sense of community within the music review site itself. I think one general forum would fix this.

Waior
03.31.10
I think there's a working model of 'band comments' on band's Last.fm pages and I can't imagine any of us wanting that here. I think we could have a review site forum and user journals. That would be an awesome compromise of everything, really.

Iluvatar
03.31.10
Just make a seperate discussion forum, and have me and chan regulate it and everything will be perfect.

Skyler
03.31.10
I think making the forums, you know, not suck, and implementing them into the review site a little better would work wonders.

Knott-
03.31.10
Yeah I agree Caleb, I didn't say that wouldn't solve it; just saying that the previous attempts to properly encourage review site users to the forums haven't been that effective and the focus should probably be switched to a new discussion area, be that forums, journals or otherwise.

Waior
03.31.10
Bingo.

EBTCardMania
03.31.10
Journals put too much emphasis on individual users. What we need is a more community oriented function.

Knott-
03.31.10
"I think there's a working model of 'band comments' on band's Last.fm pages and I can't imagine any of us wanting that here."

I agree simply because the hilarity of the comments wouldn't be anywhere close. Last.fm is fucking excellent in that regard :P

Iluvatar
03.31.10
EBTCardMania your socialist ass WOULD SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT

mynameischan
03.31.10
you can't make the forums not suck without making the users not suck

mx
03.31.10
If I added forums:

a) New threads would appear on the main page
b) If I could get it to work, some posts would appear in the new comments section
c) It would primarily be focused on review site users
d) The link to the forums in the navigation would go to these community forums

The big problem is how to keep trolls out.


Skyler
03.31.10
I think better, stronger moderation and less subforums would help a bit.

EBTCardMania
03.31.10
I think you'd have a lot less of a troll problem if people were free to talk about whatever they want.

SeaAnemone
03.31.10
maybe make a minimum of review or forum comments (nothing exorbitant, like 30, or 50 or so) to gain the privilege of posting on a community review forum (new one)? /dumb idea?

JulesWin
03.31.10
people free to talk about whatever they want usually=trolls

SeaAnemone
03.31.10
"I think you'd have a lot less of a troll problem if people were free to talk about whatever they want."

what?

Waior
03.31.10
"maybe make a minimum of review or forum comments (nothing exorbitant, like 30, or 50 or so) to gain the privilege of posting on a community review forum (new one)? /dumb idea?"

No, then people will spam away their first 50 comments in order to have freedom of speech....

Jebull
03.31.10
Honestly, not to be all negative, but I don't think I've ever found a troll free, idiot free place anywhere on the internet.. SO about that keeping trolls out.. yeah..

The only thing I could think of is one of those invite only things.. and yeah, thats not really good either.

SeaAnemone
03.31.10
but if there was a more diligent modding system (maybe encourage users to turn in trolls more to the Report Problems thread?) then I think trolling would be significantly less.

Knott-
03.31.10
"The big problem is how to keep trolls out."

How do you do it at the moment?

Prophet178
03.31.10
Honestly I probably wouldn't use the forum if it was implemented. Like others have said, its a completely different enviornment. I think whatever the feature is it has to be tightly integrated into the review site for it to work, whether it be journals or otherwise.

Maybe a users blog? I don't know how much work that would require, but if users could post entries similar to what is being done on the staff blog I think it would be perfect. It could be integrated into the review site the same way the staff blog is now.

mynameischan
03.31.10
users blog gtfo

Jebull
03.31.10
I somewhat agree with prophet, I would only use the forum so much either way. Some others are like that I'm sure. It may be about interface and such. Lists are simple and easy. Something like the blog like prophet said, or journals may work. I dunno. ha

Waior
03.31.10
Users blog would be so terrifically abused that I get a headache even thinking about that

EBTCardMania
03.31.10
Well I don't know about other people, but I usually troll because I want to talk about something on the review site but there's no where to discuss it.

Ghostechoes
03.31.10
Didn't imagine that the staff considered the troll problem so aggravating. Stronger moderation in addition to an implicit 'don't feed the trolls' policy could be the most straightforward solution.

mynameischan
03.31.10
so you post stupid argumentative and abrasive comments? how is that starting a conversation? it's just dumb.

americanmusicmachine
03.31.10
users blog is a terrible idea. terrible. oh god so... no.

Jebull
03.31.10
Yeah I'm sure you are right, a blog would turn into a pile of garbage very quickly, but I'm not sure if I made my point or not.. I like the simplicity of the lists, they are quick and easy and such. LIke, the lists go by faster. A forum is more concrete I guess, not sure if I'm making sense at all..

EBTCardMania
03.31.10
"so you post stupid argumentative and abrasive comments? how is that starting a conversation? it's just dumb."

yeah I know. beyond this internet tough guy routine, I actually like talking with people about things, and usually that's the only way to get them into the conversation. gj pointing out I'm a loser chan.


Ghostechoes
03.31.10
No offense EBT, but sometimes you troll ad nauseam.

mynameischan
03.31.10
i don't think you're a loser i actually thought you were one of the better users but then you got all grumpy

we are seeing similar developments right now with user Thor!

Powerban
03.31.10
If you were to integrate a community forum with the main site I think you should try stick to the layout of the main site as much as possible so it wouldn't scare users off. Make it as easy to comment and navigate and minimalist as possible so users aren't overwhelmed with the "where do I start?" feel of forums. This blog could be used as a great template for threads. On the right panel you could have your general stuff that is usually there on the main site so the normal user doesn't feel disconnected from their comfort zone. At the top you could put community forum navigation.

Just an opinion.

joshuatree
03.31.10
"you can't make the forums not suck without making the users not suck"

a lot of your guys' points are being negated by this one post here

Jebull
03.31.10
I completely agree with Powerban! Thats what I was trying to say.. LIke a "blurb" section. A sort of Semi-forum format. Keep the simplicity of the lists section just without the list part, and not necessarily music oriented.

EBTCardMania
03.31.10
"i don't think you're a loser i actually thought you were one of the better users but then you got all grumpy

we are seeing similar developments right now with user Thor!"

I realize my views of the world have turned me bitter as of late, but it's hard to go back to where you were. It can only get better from here.


focksy
03.31.10
just use the community thread no need for all this new integration nonsense
work on genres and news mx

love, foxxxy

mynameischan
03.31.10
on the subject of focksy:

hurfle durfle

MUNGOLOID
03.31.10
if a list is focused on one genre of music, there should be an option to specify it. this could be a great opportunity to have more exposure for those lists if they were to ever show up on that genre's main page.

focksy
03.31.10
lol you got me

Baphomet
03.31.10
I love lists the way they are, and since there aren't journals anymore it's a great way to express ourselves... sometimes that includes stuff that isn't music; but unless you're a troll chances are that lists non related to music represent only 5% of your total of lists. I'm all for deleting lists that are downright offensive, but as I said sometimes it feels good to share other stuff.

Captain North
03.31.10
You know I WOULD use the forums if I COULD.

sniper
03.31.10
I'm not familiar with the way user journals worked, but I think having those would be really great as a way to have general discussion unrelated to music. I assume they would work similarly to the way lists are being used now, so posts would show up in the new comments section, and that way nothing really has to change except the outlet used to start "off-topic" conversations. Users could still have the same easy way of sharing/starting conversations, but without the list abuse that happens now. The only problem is that this might (would) make it even easier to troll by posting stupid/offensive journals. Basically, it might not work because it's almost like having a user blog, which would break down into a total clusterfuck extremely quickly.

Maybe a new forum is the way to go. If there was a review site community forum somehow integrated into the front page, I would use it.

TheyTookOurJobs
03.31.10
......but the forums are SCARY

Athom
03.31.10
Holy shit, a lot of action here. I have no ideas. but it all has me flummoxed

klap
03.31.10
i don't see with the problem with the new list rules

LeotardMessiah2
03.31.10
The stupid non-music lists were more entertaining than anything the pseudo-reviewers churn out

Ghostechoes
03.31.10
If a forum for the users of the review site is created, can we please make it less creepy than the existing forums? In the current forums people share pictures of themselves, and I don't want to see iarescientists in a leotard reading the newspaper, or Chan wearing nothing but some skimpy red shorts.

AggravatedYeti
03.31.10
journals honestly may not be a bad idea.

Poet
03.31.10
"Chan wearing nothing but some skimpy red shorts."
That's extremely sexy though.

Just make another forum and get it over with lol.

Inveigh
03.31.10
I like the sputnikmusic community forum idea, just thought I'd throw my two cents in. I have no idea how difficult or annoying it would be to integrate and develop something like that..

Jonnyborg
03.31.10
Quoth Mongoloid: "if a list is focused on one genre of music, there should be an option to specify it. this could be a great opportunity to have more exposure for those lists if they were to ever show up on that genre's main page."

I think this is an excellent Idea.

Titan50
03.31.10
the forums suck though

BurningApollo
03.31.10
I generally look at lists for people's insight about music, but when i see a list of "The 10 Coolest People I Know" i have no idea how that has anything to do with music.

Athom
03.31.10
One of my concerns if there is a new forum is that I think that a lot of the douchebaggery that occurs on the review site in the list section has to do with it being able to illicit a fast response. On most forums that stuff doesn't happen leaving me to think that the people that like to fuck around and prod people into getting a big dick over nothing aren't going to move their bullshit over to a new forums section.

jesusjuice1179
03.31.10
well my list making days are over

bloc
03.31.10
"What if we created a sputnik community forum -- where people from the review site could hang out? It would be bit redundant because we already have offtopic forums, but if people are worried about not fitting into the community, that could be one solution."

I like this idea. Does it mean this forum would still be on the review site?

BigTuna
03.31.10
Review community forum and/or reinstating journals both sound like good ideas.

jesusjuice1179
03.31.10
these ideas are incredibly convoluted and confusing...its easier than we're making it people

Athom
03.31.10
well the easiest way would just be to have some strict new news mod that would incur the ire of the people in question.

Athom
03.31.10
gah, list mod*. brainfart

jesusjuice1179
03.31.10
lol...or you could just have a separation of lists about music and non-music stuff, no need for all these forum ideas or journals; just have a mod look at the lists and see where they belong, and have the title of each one be idicative of what kind of list it would be

jesusjuice1179
03.31.10
*indicative

Phantom
03.31.10
Nice to see some guidelines being implemented, it has been getting pretty stupid recently. A review site forum is an interesting idea.

Athom
03.31.10
the thing is, most of the people in here hate 97.625 % of the "non music stuff" lists.

Brokenjewel
03.31.10
This is fucking bullshit. I've read a lot of non-music lists that were interesting and funny; it's never once hindered my appreciation for lists that do concentrate on music. Overregulation isn't going to foster any sense of community.

jesusjuice1179
03.31.10
so then why even bother appeasing the 2.375% by making something where they could post non-music lists

Zizzer
03.31.10
I like this new rule. I've started using the forums a bit recently and they're not that bad.

Captain North
04.01.10
Yeah, there's no point creating a new set of forums (although maybe I'd actually be able to use them, gah) when the ones in place are MEANT to be for the review community.

Zizzer
04.01.10
Noooo! Lists can be cool. Surely it can't be too hard to just delete the ones that violate the rules until people catch on, right?

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