Frank Turner Tape Deck Heart
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fish.
Contributing Reviewer
April 25th 2013



21758 Comments


You're reciting what the word means. In America.


And no, capitalism isn't an inevitable consequence of libertarianism, that's stupid.

fish.
Contributing Reviewer
April 25th 2013



21758 Comments


Some political scholars assert that in most countries the terms "libertarian" and "libertarianism" are synonymous with anarchism, and some express disapproval of capitalists calling themselves libertarians.

In the United States, where the meaning of liberalism has parted significantly from classical liberalism, classical liberalism has largely been renamed libertarianism and is associated with "economically conservative"


from that wikipedia page you wanted me to read


And a reduction in the state doesn't always mean the free market will be increased. Communism is usually anarchist itself.

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ fish.

No I am not. Mate, seriously, I dunno what your problem is but this is just getting ludicrous and very tedious and boring. You seem to have this weird idea that the word has a different meaning in America to everywhere else. In fact you're basically talking as if it only really exists in America, which is weird in itself. It doesn't. All I have said in my definition of libertarianism is "a lack of state involvement" and, as you seem to accept that the word does mean that, I struggle to understand why you keep insisting I am exclusively using an "American definition" of the term.

It's not really that stupid when you think about it. How does any economic system work if the state is not able to involve itself in people's lives? By definition it is going to have to be by utilising an extremely liberal form of economics. I confess that maybe "free market" is the wrong term to use (although it is also not a term that is interchangeable with "capitalism" as you seem to think), but I was just trying to use a term that was easily understandable.

fish.
Contributing Reviewer
April 25th 2013



21758 Comments


In the US "libertarianism" is defined much more by economic liberties than the term is elsewhere. It's
possible to separate economic and civil liberties and treat them apart. That's what you don't seem to
understand.

How does any economic system work if the state is not able to involve itself in people's lives?

God knows if it works, but communism doesn't rely on a centrally planned economy.

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ fish.

Some political scholars do believe that, yes, and in principle I agree with them. Some communists have also identified themselves as being libertarian as well, which I personally think is completely moronic in every way possible considering that (however they may try to dress it up) a founding principle of communism is control over the way people live their lives.

The same could also be said to be true of capitalism in a way, since it is also a form of controlled economy (although nowadays it seems to be extremely loosely controlled, hence my insinuation that an extremely liberal economic system would be needed in a libertarian state). I accept all of that.

fish.
Contributing Reviewer
April 25th 2013



21758 Comments


a founding principle of communism is control over the way people live their lives.

ok I'm done arguing with you

It's now clear you just have absolutely no fucking idea what you're going on about.

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ fish.

I agree with you, yes, it is possible to separate the two. What it would not be possible to do is run a country on purely libertarian principles without some form of extreme economic liberalism. That's the point I've been making, not that libertarianism = economic liberalism, in any way.

I don't agree that in the US the term is more defined economically than elsewhere. I think the tendency of US libertarians to get sucked into economic liberal principles arises from the liberal economic values that are at the heart of the United States already and have been since its inception. I think that's combining two things.

I think we all know that communism doesn't work because people ain't no good (to quote Cave). Sad though that may be.

SeaAnemone
April 25th 2013



19913 Comments


I think you guys are on the same page and are just arguing over semantics at this point.
stop.

what this thread really needs is HilaryClitTounge and his two poli sci bachelors lol.

Digging: Natural Snow Buildings - The Night Country

Kris.
April 25th 2013



12230 Comments

Album Rating: 3.0

hilary woudlnt touch this with a 10 foot pole
not enough beatz n rapz

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

@ fish.

If you don't think that communism, i.e. the creation of a classless social structure, involves some
idea of control over people's lives then someone needs to help you. In order to stop some people being
better off than others (i.e. in order to stop class) you need to have some control over people's
lives. Please explain how you think it would be possible to implement communism otherwise. I am really
very intrigued.

EDIT: Restarting the entire world (unfortunately) isn't an option.

SeaAnemone
April 25th 2013



19913 Comments


bodies:
well yeah initially it needs a ton of control over people's lives but fish is probably referring to the end goal where the government completely dissolves
see: semantics and misunderstanding

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

Yeah I get you Sea, I totally agree with you.

Personally I would say that it is impossible to retain the end goal of communism without some retained governmental control anyway, because of most people being so untrustworthy and incapable of resisting some form of superiority, but that's beside the point really.

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

Back to my previous question: What song does 'Plain Sailing Weather' really remind me of? I need to know!!!

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

Also, in case anyone is unaware, you can watch Frank playing live in London, erm, live here ( http://www.youtube.com/user/frankturner ) in five minutes time.

mynameischan
Staff Reviewer
April 25th 2013



17920 Comments

Album Rating: 4.6

ya i'm excited

gonna be seeing him in a month or so too, i am happy to see him play with his band, since when i saw him before it was a solo performance (which was awesome, but the sleeping souls are such a great band)

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

Yeah the solo performances are cool but I think the band have the edge nowadays. Just makes it more rocking (if possible).

Hoping for not too much TDH material though obviously haha!

Kris.
April 25th 2013



12230 Comments

Album Rating: 3.0

why the shit didn't i bring my headphones to work today

wabbit
April 25th 2013



6984 Comments


I'm seeing him once this summer with the band and then in the fall solo.


Hopefully we will hangout again since I rawk.


I will be sad since we talked for a while and had a good conversation but he won't remember me

bodiesinflight57
April 25th 2013



869 Comments

Album Rating: 2.0

I've been there man, I've been there. Obviously he just meets SO many people though because he's so accessible.

mynameischan
Staff Reviewer
April 25th 2013



17920 Comments

Album Rating: 4.6

good show

he played 'a decent cup of tea' per fan request and it was awesome



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